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by Geilinor » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:19 am
by Auralia » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:20 am
Alqania wrote:"What general definition?" inquired Lord Raekevik. "The Alqanian delegation has been unable to find any WA definition of the term 'school'."
Alqania wrote:"That clause there is what causes the problem with the target resolution. Effectively, this repeal proposal creates a problem with the target resolution and then demands its repeal based on that problem. Without this repeal, the problem does not exist. It ought to be illegal for attempting to amend the target resolution within its repeal, or, if the proposal rules have failed to disallow that, then it ought to be self-evident that it is a bloody stupid thing to do."
Alqania wrote:"And in any case, all other things notwithstanding, the Queendom is at a loss to understand why the perverse offspring of dogmatic orthodoxy and populist democracy that illegitimately and offensively deigns to call itself the Auralian government, in light of its ridiculous claims to be openly non-compliant with several resolutions passed by this esteemed assembly, has decided to repeal a resolution with which it does not agree, rather than simply adding it to the list of resolutions it claims not to adhere to. Or to put it more concisely: why does Auralia need to repeal anything if it claims to be non-compliant?"
Alqania wrote:"And in case it was not already abundantly clear, the Queendom feels obligated to lodge a complaint in the strongest terms possible against the regime deigning to call itself the Auralian government, against it being allowed to retain its membership in this assembly, and against it making comments on the interpretation of and compliance with resolutions. Any member that claims to be openly non-compliant ought to be ashamed and shunned from this assembly, and its words carry less weight than a fly's droppings."
Alqania wrote:As Lord Raekevik finished, one of the Alqanians seated next to him whispered something. The Ambassador's response was clearly audible by the chamber: "They're not a member anymore? Then why do they bother at all about what any resolution does?"
Araraukar wrote:snip
Geilinor wrote:"The resolution that is being repealed states that only schools which receive government aid must include peer reviewed science. Theological education that is not affiliated with or funded by the government would not be required to include science."
by Glen-Rhodes » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:21 am
Geilinor wrote:"The resolution that is being repealed states that only schools which receive government aid must include peer reviewed science. Theological education that is not affiliated with or funded by the government would not be required to include science."
by Ius » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:08 am
by Auralia » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:11 am
Ius wrote:I don't see where your going with this. Science is a very important subject, in fact it is the most important. The fact that your nation wants to repeal is grossly negligent.
The Nation of Ius stand Opposed to the underlining proposal.
by Ius » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:30 am
Auralia wrote:Ius wrote:I don't see where your going with this. Science is a very important subject, in fact it is the most important. The fact that your nation wants to repeal is grossly negligent.
The Nation of Ius stand Opposed to the underlining proposal.
Would you mind actually reading the proposal before declaring your opposition to it?
by Dellin » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:38 am
by Auralia » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:43 am
Dellin wrote:I just wanted to counter the idea that if "Access to Science in Schools" applies to /all/ sciences, it wouldn't make any difference. That is not true at all. Again, the important term is "peer-reviewed" science.
If this resolution didn't exist, anyone could forward anything they want in schools as "science." Which is why this resolution is so important; you want to essentially just dismantle "science" as a subject because of some quips.
by Dellin » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:46 am
Auralia wrote:Dellin wrote:I just wanted to counter the idea that if "Access to Science in Schools" applies to /all/ sciences, it wouldn't make any difference. That is not true at all. Again, the important term is "peer-reviewed" science.
If this resolution didn't exist, anyone could forward anything they want in schools as "science." Which is why this resolution is so important; you want to essentially just dismantle "science" as a subject because of some quips.
Catholic theology, at the very least, is peer-reviewed.
by Auralia » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:58 am
Dellin wrote:Peer reviewed science as a standard in all schools is important; you want to get rid of that.
by Araraukar » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:26 pm
Auralia wrote:Then could you please explain why the fact that "science is a very important subject" is justification for opposition to this repeal?
Auralia wrote:Catholic theology, at the very least, is peer-reviewed.
Auralia wrote:Many vocational schools do not and need not teach anything that can be described as "science".
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Glen-Rhodes » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:08 pm
Dellin wrote:I just wanted to counter the idea that if "Access to Science in Schools" applies to /all/ sciences, it wouldn't make any difference. That is not true at all. Again, the important term is "peer-reviewed" science.
If this resolution didn't exist, anyone could forward anything they want in schools as "science." Which is why this resolution is so important; you want to essentially just dismantle "science" as a subject because of some quips.
by Auralia » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:45 pm
Araraukar wrote:I'm honestly baffled now. Could you give me some examples of these vocations in question?
by Araraukar » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:39 pm
Auralia wrote:Three example trades are listed in the repeal: plumbing, baking and hair-styling.
You could also throw in any school that exclusively teaches dance or the visual, dramatic and musical arts.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Auralia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:47 am
Araraukar wrote:Plumbers and hair-stylers certainly need to know about chemicals, and last I checked, chemistry was definitely deemed as a science. The chem classes are (talking of the only school system I know reasonably well) modified for the needs of each, but plumbers also require math and physics. Baking requires some understanding of biology/chemistry (again, modified to suit the specifics of the trade), and I doubt they're able to escape math either.
Araraukar wrote:Annnnd this will throw us back into "what counts as science?" And possibly also "what counts as school?" since I can't off the top of my head think of a school that would teach nothing else but the specific art. Those would be projects and courses, not a whole school (even if someone wanted to define the "school" as the physical building inside which the projects and courses take place).
by Ius » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:41 am
by Dellin » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:50 am
Second, the examples of science you provided are contrived. It's important to distinguish between the study of a particular scientific field as an end in and of itself, and the application of a few scientific principles to a particular trade. If the latter is all that is necessary to fulfill the resolution's requirements, then I have to ask exactly what you think the resolution accomplishes, in light of its intended purpose. Because if we accept your interpretation, the resolution effectively does nothing.
by Araraukar » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:04 am
Auralia wrote:First of all, math is not a science.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Auralia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:23 am
Ius wrote:The resolution that was passed, was a great resolution. By repealing it you will strike it out and make it null and void. You must then come up with a replacement.
Science must be taught there is no other way around it. Frankly, you don't have a very well thought out proposal.
Dellin wrote:/Ambassador Judea sighs and leans forward/: "First, what Ambassador Leveret said was not that there were just scientific "principles", but that such trade schools often require science in forms that apply directly to that profession. But I will let her speak for herself on that.
Dellin wrote:Secondly, as I have said, the resolution accomplishes something very important: it doesn't just give access to science, it gives access to peer-reviewed science. So that electricians aren't learning the Theory of the Magical Floating Electrode, and other such nonsense. Yes, that is an absurd example, but is that level of absurdity that this resolution is protecting against. You are focusing on one part of this resolution on which to base its merits (the fact that it mentions "science", and then call us narrow."
by Dellin » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:34 am
Trade schools do not offer classes in physics, chemistry or any other natural science. People attending trade schools already have an basic understanding of the natural sciences from high school anyways. Rather, trade schools use knowledge derived from the natural sciences to accomplish a particular task. But this rudimentary form of applied science is not what the resolution refers to when it uses the term "science".
Again, there are many vocations where instruction in peer-reviewed science is completely. Granted, electricians are not one of them, but I've never actually used that as an example. Instead, I've brought up bakers, piano tuners, lock smiths, artists, actors, musicians and the like.
by Auralia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:41 am
Dellin wrote:It's going to get exhausting if we have to find science in everything. I think you are getting absurd, though. First off, most of those professions don't have exclusive schools. Some of them don't even have schools to begin with. A lot of them often won't have government funded schools. Those that do will more often than not have some form of science associated with them.
(Earlier you mentioned dance schools. Though it varies by nations, those are often privately funded.)
by Dellin » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:42 am
Auralia wrote:I'm no longer interested in continuing to debate this point, but I'll make one final comment:Dellin wrote:It's going to get exhausting if we have to find science in everything. I think you are getting absurd, though. First off, most of those professions don't have exclusive schools. Some of them don't even have schools to begin with. A lot of them often won't have government funded schools. Those that do will more often than not have some form of science associated with them.
(Earlier you mentioned dance schools. Though it varies by nations, those are often privately funded.)
You've essentially conceded that this is a poorly-written resolution, as it arbitrarily prevents nations from opening and funding a school dedicated to certain vocations, such as dance.
by Auralia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:43 am
Dellin wrote:Auralia wrote:I'm no longer interested in continuing to debate this point, but I'll make one final comment:
You've essentially conceded that this is a poorly-written resolution, as it arbitrarily prevents nations from opening and funding a school dedicated to certain vocations, such as dance.
Uh....No. It requires, if the government does open such a school, that there be science. Which isn't too terribly difficult.
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