[PASSED] Liberate Nazi Europe

[Sciongrad]

If we're going to debate, let's keep the straw men to a minimum, please. Philosophically, you believe that Nazis don't have the right to exist in an organized region together - that's all anyone's pointed out. Now before I ask, note that I haven't, nor do I plan, on comparing you to Hitler. I don't think anyone has compared you to Hitler yet. But anyways - do you believe that segregating or murdering people based on ideology isn't the hallmark of some of history's most totalitarian governments? If you plan on answering no, because this is an internet browser, and that you're not starving millions of people to death or performing political assassinations, or some other silly refrain, then I laugh at you. If you answer yes, then I'm glad we see eye to eye.

You can laugh all you want, but I'm not going to get into a debate about RL totalitarianism with you when it has nothing whatsoever to do with this situation. This is a browser game, it's for people's enjoyment, and the vast majority of us don't enjoy having to share this space with people who adore Hitler and advocate hatred and murder. Period. I'm not getting into any deeper philosophical debate than that because there isn't any deep philosophy involved here.

Alright, fair enough. You get to categorically deny a group of people a right (despite the fact that this is an internet game, all nations have the right to form and reside in regions within it), and claim that it's not discrimination. But hey, even if it was, it doesn't count because they're Nazis, right? I have a deep hatred of Nazism, but I don't hate people simply because they happen to believe in something I disagree with. I thought that freedom of expression was a more commonly accepted right, but I guess not.

Most folk in the region RP Stark and you can't seem to understand that. I think your still butthurt your shit proposal did not pass but this even shittier one will.

I understand it. What you don't seem to understand is that I'm not anymore all right with people acting out their fantasies of being Nazis than I am with them actually being Nazis, and since I can't tell which of you are the former and which of you are the latter I enjoy banjecting you equally. In regard to the proposal: On the contrary, I'd be fine with a proposal written in text message abbreviations passing as long as it would open your despicable region to the thorough griefing it deserves.

Clearly you don't understand, because you basically just said "I don't care if they're pretending, they're still Nazis! And even if they aren't, there are other Nazis there, so let's grief them all!"

[Cormac Stark]

<snip>

Two things:

1. Yep, I hate Nazis. This is not a problem for me. It doesn't keep me awake at night contemplating my moral navel, because they don't just believe something I disagree with. They're not conservatives advocating tax breaks for the super-rich, that's something I disagree with. What Nazis believe is that people should be murdered based on their race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, ability, etc. That's not just something I disagree with, it's a reprehensible violation of universally accepted moral absolutes -- and yeah, I hate them for it, and no, I don't feel bad about myself for being intolerant of people who think I should be sent to the ovens.

2. I'm not denying them the right to exist in this game in a region. I can't deny them that right, only the administrators and moderators can -- and while I wish they would, that's beyond my power to control. What I can do is deny them the right to exist in this particular region by voting for this liberation resolution and then kicking them all out of it. And while that may not be particularly effective, in that they can and likely will found a new region, it beats the alternative of doing nothing about them at all and fretting about their rights in a browser game.

[Cerian Quilor]

Or you could save your vitriol for Nazis for the real world, where it actually matters.

[Terravoss]

What Nazis believe is that people should be murdered based on their race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, ability, etc.

No, that is what Hitler and a few of his cronies believed. Most people in the Nazi party had moral objections to those beliefs, but were legally duty bound to carry out their orders, as was proven time and time again at Nuremberg.

Have you ever met a "Real" Nazi, and quizzed him on his beliefs? (No I am not a Nazi, and despise what they did by the way......) I have and it was a most enlightening conversation.

[Baiynistan]

It's encouraging to see that the For:Against ratio has shifted slightly away from an overwhelming 'For' majority, but it's still discouraging to see so many voters in favour of making the Security Council a catty, tit-for-tat (not so) covert aggression enabler.

I wholeheartedly object to most of what the Nazis stand/stood for, but I have no interest in seeing them harassed as long as they're beliefs and assemblage to discuss/reiterate those beliefs is not directly causing grief to other people. Use the Security Council to start purging the literal and metaphorical forum of 'disagreeable' ideologies and eventually there won't be any regions left.

[Feux]

It's encouraging to see that the For:Against ratio has shifted slightly away from an overwhelming 'For' majority, but it's still discouraging to see so many voters in favour of making the Security Council a catty, tit-for-tat (not so) covert aggression enabler.

Eh, that 10KI vote, what can you do.

[Zeorus]

I did originally promise myself not to post here, but I've decided I will. I voted against this proposal, first of all, as I did the previous times. I'm not going to lie, I don't like Nazi ideology, but there's many other ideologies I don't have a favourable view of as well. I do understand why people want to open NE for invasion, but I don't agree with the rationale. I don't believe in attacking a region purely based on ideology, since I see it as forcing a point of view. My other reason for voting against the proposal is my view in regards to natives of a region having the right do with a region as they wish - if NE wants to password their region, I see no reason why I should take that ability away from the region, regardless of the ideology the region may promote.

Well said. It seems we are, for once, in agreement.

[Captain Woodhouse]

Don't condemn. Revel in it. That and the irony of a former invader org and a Nazi org currently involved in an occupation of The Islamic Republic of Iran complaining about NE's sovereignty being kicked out of the window.

FYI on The Islamic Republic of Iran:

I moonlighted for the GGR a few months ago and headed the original mission. I brought the region to pw then screwed the GGR when they let Felix, aka 'Aryan Shield' back in the door. I gave the pw to Unibot, Cormac and Eist so that one or the other could liberate it. Cormac did, but for whatever reason, he left the region vulnerable again.

I kicked three Muslim parody nations whose 'flags' came from Jailbait sites. They were similar to the Jailbait flags used by the Hitler Youth 'natives'. I think all the Jailbait nations from TIPOI have CTEd. One genuine native still remains in the region: 15. Maybe one of the morally superior GCR party animals will consider squirting out another unedited POS sure thing to save 15's home. Probably not much 'fun' in that.

There's a difference between badass and petulant.

Probably.

Either way, we're winning.

What are you winning, Georgie?

I've spent all of my six years on NS in three vulnerable, founderless regions. It's been an interesting experience. I've no interest in region destruction.

I know NE probably destroyed some regions back in the day. I'm not all that familiar with NE's raiding history. All I know is they've done nothing much since I've been on board. We realize you can't come to terms with the past. It's the 'why' that's baffling.

You've admitted to being a bullying victim. The 'kill the pig, spill his blood' war whooping in this thread is the same sort of ugly business I've seen from Antifa. A few Antifa players have brought their real—and unhappy—worlds to the game. They've said they don't differentiate between game and reality. That's the closest 'why' I can understand for the NE lynching and for every other Liberation attempt except the one drafted by a former NE member.

I understand it. What you don't seem to understand is that I'm not anymore all right with people acting out their fantasies of being Nazis than I am with them actually being Nazis

Cormac, stop zooming the SC. I'm sympathetic to whatever real world suffering is responsible for your peculiar bent toward scapegoating folks on the Internet. I can say with some degree of certainty that removing every Nazi player from NS isn't going to solve any of your real world issues.

We're hardly even RPing in NE much less acting out fantasies. I know it's hard, but segue to the real world for a moment. We're not bugging anyone except folks who feel powerless to confront their real world demons and have found some comfort in burning an effigy. I did my rounds on GCR forums last night. Stumbled upon this in Osiris:

1. It was known that the GCR delegates were meeting to discuss the Nazi Problem.

'Nazi Problem' is ever so close to 'Jewish Question'.

You're winning this one, but you've no idea what you're winning. You're gonna have to consult the real world to figure that out.

[Captain Woodhouse]

The people who give the realm stick for their "fake" liberations of founderless regions are rhe ones who support this resolution.

How hypocritical.

Also the realm doesnt use liberation resolutions as a weapon, and you call us griefers, take a look in the mirror.

Hypocritical you say? Heh.

NE has received an ultimatum from The Realm's founder and your master. Either NE does things Aryan Shield's way, or else. Some of the dramatic threats:

For this you have to remove the Zionist influence and purge the region of all those hostile to True National Socialism.


IF this is done. We will assist you; if not..we will bide our time and destroy NE completely after you have fought wave after wave after wave of Antifa invaders.

The choice is yours. Alliance or Death.

I offered a solution. Now NE burns,....it is your choice to join us or not. I need an answer within 2 days
___________________

We told him to go to Hell. Why are you here pretending you're AGAINST this Liberation because it's just so terribly unjust?

[Terravoss]

The people who give the realm stick for their "fake" liberations of founderless regions are rhe ones who support this resolution.

How hypocritical.

Also the realm doesnt use liberation resolutions as a weapon, and you call us griefers, take a look in the mirror.

Hypocritical you say? Heh.

NE has received an ultimatum from The Realm's founder and your master. Either NE does things Aryan Shield's way, or else. Some of the dramatic threats:

For this you have to remove the Zionist influence and purge the region of all those hostile to True National Socialism.


IF this is done. We will assist you; if not..we will bide our time and destroy NE completely after you have fought wave after wave after wave of Antifa invaders.

The choice is yours. Alliance or Death.

I offered a solution. Now NE burns,....it is your choice to join us or not. I need an answer within 2 days
___________________

We told him to go to Hell. Why are you here pretending you're AGAINST this Liberation because it's just so terribly unjust?

Or you could take the highly unusual step of I don't know "refounding". Now would be a god time by the way, so this resolution will mean nothing and Feux will lose yet again.

[Cerian Quilor]

Or just moving to New Nazi Europe, or Nazi America, or whatever.

[Belschaft]

Woodhouse, unlike most Nazi players you seem fairly reasonable, so I'll explain my own thinking here for your benefit.

There are broadly speaking two types of Nazi in NS; the RP ones and the actual Neo-Nazi's. Of the two the second type are grossly more objectionable. However, the first type provide them with 'cover' if you will, by to a certain degree legitimizing it. It allows them to hide in plain sight, and provides a context within they can exist. I suspect the actual Neo-Nazi's in NS are the vast minority of the two groups, but due to the existence of the RP element they have more places to live and more peers to interact with. I would like to see the actual Neo-Nazi's driven into as small a corner of the game as possible and eventually driven entirely out, and the presence of people like yourself makes that harder.

Secondly, I find the very fact that you take enjoyment from RPing as a Nazi sick. You are glorifying and taking amusement from the systematical murder of untold millions of people, some of whom were my relatives. The same is true for a significant number of other players in NS.

Can you not see why I, and other people, find you taking amusement from the murder of members of my family vastly upsetting? Surely you can.

Please, stop doing so. There are hundreds of other ways for you to RP in NS. Can you not find one you find equally enjoyable?

[Xarxis]

Here's my response to everybody who (more or less) said "NAZIS ARE EVIL SO WE MUST KILL ALL GERMAN REGIONS!!!111one!1"

You ready?
There haven't been any real Nazis* for over 70 years. It's possible to like Germans, and even to entertain the idea of a German empire (since they did, in fact, have some - there's a reason why the Third Reich was the THIRD Reich), without being a Nazi.

*I don't consider Neo-Nazis to be "real" Nazis. They're not part of the correct political party to be Nazis.

[Cerian Quilor]

Bels, I have a question. This is a question the Anti-Nazi crowd (by which I mean the people actively pursing the end of Nazis in NS, not just people oppose Nazism) has never answered for me, even though I've asked it several times.

I used to play a game called GURPS, a Roleplaying game called Generic Universal Roleplaying System. I don't these days because two of the groups members have graduated and the rest of us too busy with classes, but that's immaterial.

One time, we did a game where it was set in an alternate 2010 where the Nazis had won WWII, and there were two groups of players. The SS officer (me) and his crack team of agents, and the other guys, who were members of the American Resistance Front. The scenario was the ARF had gotten a time machine, went back to 1942 to prevent the germans winning the Eastern Front, and my char chasing them through time with his team. I played to win ( always do), (in the end, the other players tricked me and my team and we ended up 'losing'). When I played the SS officer, I got in character (without the fake accent, of course) - and I enjoyed the game. Does that make me a Nazi, or cover for real nazis? Does that kind of thing make you 'sick'? I mean, I'm honestly wondering.

[Belschaft]

To be honest? I don't have an easy or specific answer to that. It would depend on a number of details, none of which I have. You also have to remember that my reactions to Nazi's are an emotional ones; they aren't necessarily entirely rational. I can no more control how I feel about it than I can about, say, the color blue.

Gut reaction? I don't find myself objecting to it too much. That may be different depending on how you approached it. The same is true of course of NS Nazism.

[Cerian Quilor]

Understandable. Thanks for answering, at least.

[Lowell Leber]

Woodhouse, unlike most Nazi players you seem fairly reasonable, so I'll explain my own thinking here for your benefit.

There are broadly speaking two types of Nazi in NS; the RP ones and the actual Neo-Nazi's. Of the two the second type are grossly more objectionable. However, the first type provide them with 'cover' if you will, by to a certain degree legitimizing it. It allows them to hide in plain sight, and provides a context within they can exist. I suspect the actual Neo-Nazi's in NS are the vast minority of the two groups, but due to the existence of the RP element they have more places to live and more peers to interact with. I would like to see the actual Neo-Nazi's driven into as small a corner of the game as possible and eventually driven entirely out, and the presence of people like yourself makes that harder.

Secondly, I find the very fact that you take enjoyment from RPing as a Nazi sick. You are glorifying and taking amusement from the systematical murder of untold millions of people, some of whom were my relatives. The same is true for a significant number of other players in NS.

Can you not see why I, and other people, find you taking amusement from the murder of members of my family vastly upsetting? Surely you can.

Please, stop doing so. There are hundreds of other ways for you to RP in NS. Can you not find one you find equally enjoyable?

Not to but in, but couldnt the same be said about those who RP as Stalinist states? Or as Mongols for that matter?

[Bundabunda]

Not to but in, but couldnt the same be said about those who RP as Stalinist states? Or as Mongols for that matter?

I don't think I've met a Korean, Chinese or Arab who was personally affected by Mongol terror.

[Lowell Leber]

Not to but in, but couldnt the same be said about those who RP as Stalinist states? Or as Mongols for that matter?

I don't think I've met a Korean, Chinese or Arab who was personally affected by Mongol terror.

Point taken. But the comparison to EDIT: RPing a Stalinist state still stands.

[Bundabunda]

I don't think I've met a Korean, Chinese or Arab who was personally affected by Mongol terror.

Point taken. But the comparison to EDIT: RPing a Stalinist state still stands.

Bel did decry the other elements of the game without specifically mentioning them. I assume that included the "Stalin Hussein" RPers.

[Belschaft]

Todays failure was no more than a delay. Nazi Europe will be burnt, and burnt soon.

[German Dragons]

You will fail, fail and fail again.

[Rupture Farms co]

Todays failure was no more than a delay. Nazi Europe will be burnt, and burnt soon.

Please take fake video game hatred somewhere else.

[Captain Woodhouse]

Woodhouse, unlike most Nazi players you seem fairly reasonable, so I'll explain my own thinking here for your benefit.

Gosh, thank you for acknowledging that I seem 'fairly' reasonable. Unfortunately, I can't return the compliment.

There are broadly speaking two types of Nazi in NS

Been playing the game for a while. I'm familiar with all the types here, not just the Nazi types.

I would like to see the actual Neo-Nazi's driven into as small a corner of the game as possible and eventually driven entirely out, and the presence of people like yourself makes that harder.

I know what you would like to see. Some of the folks I think you're referencing are not my favorite personalities in the game; however, they are part of what makes Gameplay challenging to me.

I apologize for making it difficult for you to destroy a 2003 region and push other players out of the game. One 'fairly reasonable' female Canadian naval officer and an assortment of 'fairly reasonable' young gentlemen have called NAZI EUROPE 'home' for a number of years. We will 'not go gentle into that good night'.

I want to keep the eternal good vs. evil struggle alive in gameplay—for your sake as well as mine. What the hell would the GCRs do without Nazis to kick around? Are you telling me posting nation stats is where it's at for you?

Gameplay is interactive fiction for me. It contains RP elements, but RP is much more elaborate. Back in my undergrad days, I was assigned to write a story from the perspective of a child molester. It was no fun, but it was challenging; I enjoyed the challenge. Gameplay doesn't allow me to explore a Nazi character to any enjoyable degree. From a creative writing standpoint, the enjoyment—or challenge—comes from being loathed for the little I can explore.

I caught your Dachau post. I'm very sorry. I've some tragic family history along those lines, but I leave it in my real world hurt locker. Huh uh, I'm not gonna stop enjoying myself to accommodate your delicate sensibilities. If anything, your failure or inability to check your emotions at the door has made me more determined to be less sensitive.

Can you not see why I, and other people, find you taking amusement from the murder of members of my family vastly upsetting? Surely you can.

If NS Nazi gameplay—diluted to the point of 'Fluffy Bunny Feet'—is 'vastly upsetting' to you, how do you open that door to the real world every day?

[Captain Woodhouse]

Or you could take the highly unusual step of I don't know "refounding". Now would be a god time by the way, so this resolution will mean nothing and Feux will lose yet again.

Or we could take the highly stupid step of, I don't know, 'refounding' while every refound hawk in the game is waiting for it—and lose the region that way. That's what happened to Hippiedom, and everyone loves hippies, man.

Being hawked isn't an agreeable option to Feux, Bel, Georgie, Cormac, Evil Wolf, et al getting their kicks.