[PASSED] Liberate Nazi Europe

[Evil Wolf]

If NS Nazi gameplay—diluted to the point of 'Fluffy Bunny Feet'—is 'vastly upsetting' to you, how do you open that door to the real world every day?

Heh, I thoroughly enjoyed this line. I agree with you too, although I know my opinion isn't going to be popular. It's fun to play the villain, it makes gameplay much more interesting and complex. I personally have no problem with roleplaying Nazis, it's the real ones I take issue with.

Oh, and for the record, Woodhouse, I ordered that attack for the fame and glory of it, not because I have a personal grudge against anyone or any group in particular. Don't mistake my willingness to attack Nazi Europe as fanatically anti-whatever-you-want-to-call-this, Nazi Europe is simply a founderless target to me.

[The Gregorach]

If NS Nazi gameplay—diluted to the point of 'Fluffy Bunny Feet'—is 'vastly upsetting' to you, how do you open that door to the real world every day?

Heh, I thoroughly enjoyed this line. I agree with you too, although I know my opinion isn't going to be popular. It's fun to play the villain, it makes gameplay much more interesting and complex. I personally have no problem with roleplaying Nazis, it's the real ones I take issue with.

Oh, and for the record, Woodhouse, I ordered that attack for the fame and glory of it, not because I have a personal grudge against anyone or any group in particular. Don't mistake my willingness to attack Nazi Europe as fanatically anti-whatever-you-want-to-call-this, Nazi Europe is simply a founderless target to me.

When I was in the Navy, one of the worst things you could say about someone was that they were a buddyfucker. That shoe fits you. Might not be personal for you, but you tried to betray a region had longstanding ties to yours. I'd also think that the move violated the doctrine of Raider Unity, which if memory serves is a doctrine you support.

[Captain Woodhouse]

Oh, and for the record, Woodhouse, I ordered that attack for the fame and glory of it, not because I have a personal grudge against anyone or any group in particular. Don't mistake my willingness to attack Nazi Europe as fanatically anti-whatever-you-want-to-call-this, Nazi Europe is simply a founderless target to me.

GD forwarded your TG to me. I haven't read anything quite that supercilious in a long time.

NE's been founderless for over two years. Guess you didn't have the right stuff to attack us until we made it to the chopping block; even then, after giving you the goddamn password and assuming the position, you still couldn't screw us.

[Cerian Quilor]

You were passworded for like...99% of that time, woodhouse.

Moreover, now you're on everyone's radar, so managing to take it would mean everyone would notice.

[Corageland]

Okay Nazism does not mean the murdering of millions in its inception. That was HITLERS (NOTE ONE PERSON) final solution. The Majority of the party disagreed with this policy but when the Fuhrer is always right and you disagree you get shot, what can you do. In the end it was Hitler needing a scapegoat. I can see no way a liberation of a group that hell may not have been role playing in Hitler style, if just from the word Nazi you get the image of the Concentration camps like Auschwitz, your education in that matter is greatly unimpressive. A Nazi is as i said before a member of the National Socialist party, this has no set policy towards genocide. And lets face it if you are going to go against the Nazi idea with this Liberation, i'm sure there is some Communist Region that needs a good liberating because you know, Mao and Stalin killed far more then Hitler ever managed to. It is only due to the fact that China and the USSR were allies to Britain and America that they are not hated today.

All this is, is an attack on a random ideology and is just simply ridiculous in the end, i can see no justification for this bar the fact of We want to be evil and invade or that they are Nazis zomgggg killz zem. If anyone is Jewish here, then please do remember that it wasn't all Nazi's that wanted the final solution, it was a select few which unfortunately were the top of the pile 70 years ago. Rommel the desert fox himself was personally against the Final Solution but did his duty as demanded of him, there is honour in that. As well as this Von Manstein feels more like he had his own reasons for what happened, he had no direct part in the holocaust.

His actions were a reflection of his loyalty toward Hitler and the Nazi regime and of his grounding in a sense of duty based on traditional Prussian military values. His criticism of Hitler was based solely on their disagreements over the conduct of the war, not about the regime's racial policies. He believed that Bolshevism and Judaism were inextricably linked, that there was a global conspiracy led by the Jews, and that in order to stop the spread of communism it was necessary to remove the Jews from European society.

One of his orders reads as: Jewish Bolshevik system must be wiped out once and for all and should never again be allowed to invade our European living space ... It is the same Jewish class of beings who have done so much damage to our own Fatherland by virtue of their activities against the nation and civilisation, and who promote anti-German tendencies throughout the world, and who will be the harbingers of revenge. Their extermination is a dictate of our own survival.

It seems as though he was led to believe that Judaism was a threat to the survival of not just Germany but the majority of Europe oddly enough, but this can equally show that he was acting slightly out of dislike for them.
Neo-Nazis are completely different to normal Nazis as well. I would not like to see an extreme compared to the whole, lest we all start thinking that all those that believe in Islamic teachings are suicide bombers or members of a terrorist organisation.

I would like to say that if anyone has a problem with what i have said here i am sorry but if you are condoning violent actions where none are required you are taking away the rights of someone in perhaps a small way but you are still doing this, they have committed no wrong actions why was this action required?

[German Dragons]

This whole idea is ridiculous. It's a group of people who have power over the WA and exploit the fact many people have an animosity shoved into their brains as children towards "Nazis" They can't take us out honorably, so they have to use a forced opening. I am not an advocator of genocide or persecution, I never have, but that doesn't matter to them. They need an excuse to take an infamous region, the first one with two condemnations and soon the only one to have a Liberation intended for invasion. It doesn't matter to them that Nazi Europe struggles to stay afloat as it is.

They even stated there is no standing NE military, thus making us no threat to interregional security. They instead, focused on the "spreading of ideology" Hard to do when the hate your claiming isn't being spread. Times change, ideas change, nations move on from old beliefs. That's just fact. There are more dangerous regions with far more aggressive policies you can surely direct your attentions to. All of this is a piss-poor excuse for their greed. There is no threat and they know it.

I'll be waiting.


EDIT: Grammar

[Mad Jack]

This whole idea is ridiculous. It's a group of people who have power over the WA and exploit the fact many people have an animosity shoved into their brains as children towards "Nazis" They can't take us out honorably, so they have to use a forced opening. I am not an advocator of genocide or persecution, I never have, but that doesn't matter to them. They need an excuse to take an infamous region, the first one with two condemnations and soon the only one to have a Liberation intended for invasion. It doesn't matter to them that Nazi Europe struggles to stay afloat as it is.

They even stated there is no standing NE military, thus making us no threat to interregional security. They instead, focused on the "spreading of ideology" Hard to do when the hate your claiming isn't being spread. Times change, ideas change, nations move on from old beliefs. That's just fact. There are more dangerous regions with far more aggressive policies you can surely direct your attentions to. All of this is a piss-poor excuse for their greed. There is no threat and they know it.

I'll be waiting.


EDIT: Grammar

I'm going to have fun watching you kicked.

[Communist Destroyer]

the problem is: antifa. they are pushing thier horrendous communist genocidal agenda yet push these "liberate" agendas over and over and over and over again. we are simply sick of it. i thought there was a rule against this. i guess im just going to propose liberating the north pacific until i get my way like a child. because thats what this is.

so i guess it comes down the the cowardly weak antifa/stalin communists getting their way by lies and subterfuge.

they cant take a region without lies. and they trick impressionable young youth with thier lies of "the working man" when they mean to make the working man SLAVES.

you have to be absolutely DENSE to think NE is a threat to anyone dispite the fact that this is just going to end up a trophy for the morons that perpotrated this in the first place.

if you think im lying? watch what happens next.

you people are pathetic.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

the problem is: antifa. they are pushing thier horrendous communist genocidal agenda yet push these "liberate" agendas over and over and over and over again. we are simply sick of it. i thought there was a rule against this. i guess im just going to propose liberating the north pacific until i get my way like a child. because thats what this is.

so i guess it comes down the the cowardly weak antifa/stalin communists getting their way by lies and subterfuge.

they cant take a region without lies. and they trick impressionable young youth with thier lies of "the working man" when they mean to make the working man SLAVES.

you have to be absolutely DENSE to think NE is a threat to anyone dispite the fact that this is just going to end up a trophy for the morons that perpotrated this in the first place.

if you think im lying? watch what happens next.

you people are pathetic.

Except this has nothing to do with Antifa, so your misinformed and badly punctuated rant makes me wonder whether you actually read a) the Liberation proposal, b) the name of the invididual proposing it or c) this thread.

[Communist Destroyer]

<snip>

Two things:

1. Yep, I hate Nazis. This is not a problem for me. It doesn't keep me awake at night contemplating my moral navel, because they don't just believe something I disagree with. They're not conservatives advocating tax breaks for the super-rich, that's something I disagree with. What Nazis believe is that people should be murdered based on their race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, ability, etc. That's not just something I disagree with, it's a reprehensible violation of universally accepted moral absolutes -- and yeah, I hate them for it, and no, I don't feel bad about myself for being intolerant of people who think I should be sent to the ovens.

2. I'm not denying them the right to exist in this game in a region. I can't deny them that right, only the administrators and moderators can -- and while I wish they would, that's beyond my power to control. What I can do is deny them the right to exist in this particular region by voting for this liberation resolution and then kicking them all out of it. And while that may not be particularly effective, in that they can and likely will found a new region, it beats the alternative of doing nothing about them at all and fretting about their rights in a browser game.

wrong again, stalin commie. if you knew anything about national socialist ideology, witch i know you dont care to learn anyway. your communist idealisms betray you, sir. we are sick of you promoting your communist lies. you are blight on this web site. and you are pathetic. i know you dont care that you and your communism killed 100 millions of people yet you dont care about them. you are ignorant.

when will you grow up? i suspect never.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

stalin commie

you are pathetic.

when will you grow up?

I hope I'm not the only one who can see the irony here.

Cormac isn't a communist; your point is wholly irrelevant.

[Communist Destroyer]

stalin commie

you are pathetic.

when will you grow up?

I hope I'm not the only one who can see the irony here.

Cormac isn't a communist; your point is wholly irrelevant.

yeah right. thats as dumb as it is ignorant. im about as communist as he is not.

wow you are blind as hell.

why dont you actually do something useful for once besides cause problems, stalin commie

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

I hope I'm not the only one who can see the irony here.

Cormac isn't a communist; your point is wholly irrelevant.

yeah right. thats as dumb as it is ignorant. im about as communist as he is not.

[citation needed]

wow you are blind as hell.

I actually have near 20/20 vision. It's lovely. But this isn't about me.

why dont you actually do something useful for once besides cause problems, stalin commie

I'm here to debate and discuss the proposal. You know I don't like ol' Iosef Dzughashvili, so I don't know why you're labelling me as a Stalinist.

I'm not here to cause "problems", I'm here to talk about this proposal. What's your view on it?

[Communist Destroyer]

as much as im not a friend to NE as anyone because they dont even lift a finger to help GGR when in trouble even though as GGR delegate im doing this for them probably wont even get a mention. i think is bullshit that it takes this for you stalin commies/ antifa to get your way.

i dont need any proof that cormac stark is a communist sympathizer as it is self evident.

he is supremely hated by all sides despite what anyone tells you.

he thinks he is doing a noble cause but is doing the bidding of genecidal maniacs and is closed minded as a extremist can get even though he is jealous he didnt write this particular garbage proposal, this time.

after so many proposals people got sick of seeing this get into the queue. there is a rule about posting repeat junk proposals yet moderation does nothing.

in closing, even if they shut down a garbage region like antifa like this i would still vote nay because this a cowards way to go and thats the truth.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

as much as im not a friend to NE as anyone because they dont even lift a finger to help GGR when in trouble even though as GGR delegate im doing this for them probably wont even get a mention.

i think is bullshit that it takes this for you stalin commies/ antifa to get your way.

It's not been proposed by a communist, it wasn't brought to quorum by communists and the majority of those Delegates who've lent their larger vote count to it are not communists.

I don't understand how this is difficult to grasp.

i dont need any proof that cormac stark is a communist sympathizer as it is self evident.

I hope you're aware how poor an argument that is.

he is supremely hated by all sides despite what anyone tells you.

This of course explains perfectly his involvement at a very high level in various militaries and organisations.

he thinks he is doing a noble cause

Actually, most of us here are doing this because we'd dearly love to see NE getting the living shit kicked out of it by an invasion force than for any "noble reason".

but is doing the bidding of genecidal maniacs

Again, the irony.

and is closed minded as a extremist can get

See above.

even though he is jealous he didnt write this particular garbage proposal, this time.

[citation needed]

after so many proposals people got sick of seeing this get into the queue. there is a rule about posting repeat junk proposals yet moderation does nothing.

GHRs exist for a reason.

in closing, even if they shut down a garbage region like antifa like this i would still vote nay because this a cowards way to go and thats the truth.

I'll bear that in mind; I doubt it, though.

This is pretty much certain to pass, in all honesty, so my question is; when NE is liberated by this proposal and its inhabitants attacked, will the GGR aid them or will it sit back and protest this proposal from the sidelines?

[Evil Wolf]

When I was in the Navy, one of the worst things you could say about someone was that they were a buddyfucker. That shoe fits you. Might not be personal for you, but you tried to betray a region had longstanding ties to yours.

I think in order for me to be a Blue Falcon, I would have had to actually be your buddy. That was the mistaken assumption here. The only reason why Lone Wolves United had any relations with Nazi Europe at all was because of Oh My Days. It was him who I would call a buddy and a fellow raider, but not anyone active in Nazi Europe at the moment, although German Dragons is starting to change my opinion about that. I don't know any of you from a complete and total stranger and Nazi Europe has completely isolated itself from the NS world and raider community as a whole due to the extream(ly well placed) paranoia of its remaining members.

I'd also think that the move violated the doctrine of Raider Unity, which if memory serves is a doctrine you support.

That depends largely as to whether or not you would still consider, or in some cases ever consider, Nazi Europe to be raider. I would say that majority consensus, even amongst strict adherers to the principles of Raider Unity, which I consider myself one of, is no, with my additional caveat being "not currently". Individual members might still be raiding under other flags, but I am unaware of the last time Nazi Europe actually raided anything in earnest, and throwing up the "Invader" tag does not magically make your region raider. It is a designation to be earned through action, not declared, and Nazi Europe will have plenty of opportunity in the coming days to earn the title.

NE's been founderless for over two years. Guess you didn't have the right stuff to attack us until we made it to the chopping block; even then, after giving you the goddamn password and assuming the position, you still couldn't screw us.

That mostly boils down to a question of convenience. Nazi Europe was passworded for the majority of the time its been founderless, and passworded targets end up at the bottom of any hit list until the password can be obtained.

While I had been scouting Nazi Europe in the past, it's true that I decided to strike immediately upon receiving the password, and the reason for this is actually because I wanted to get to it before these damn lunatics who believe that Nazi Europe is actually some Real Life Nazi organization and that the people within are actual Nazis themselves. Once the password was down, it would have been open season, I wanted to hit it before that. I find it ironic that many people somehow link TGGR with NE when the two have nothing to do with each other and last I heard their relations were horrible. If my troops had taken the region last night, we would have stuck around, had our fun waited for a repeal to pass of the Liberation Proposal, and then left. These guys gunning for Nazi Europe, the ones who earnestly support the Liberation Proposal? They want your region destroyed and made into a Holocaust Memorial region. That doesn't sit right with me, that's a fate for enemies, not for neutrals (*cough*and for that one active, foundered region just to see if we could do it*cough*). I don't consider NE to be an enemy.

I think Nazi Europe is very lucky to have German Dragons. As much as it seems I talk down to him, I actually have a lot of respect for him for what he did last night and I don't just mean having the presence of mind not to trust me. I think if anyone in Nazi Europe can hold off the tide, it's going to be him.

[Cerian Quilor]

Moreover, Raider Unity isn't really even a thing.

[Evil Wolf]

Only to Imperialists like yourself, Cerian, whom reject the principals that have kept us focused on our Defender enemies and our teeth out of each others throats.

[Cerian Quilor]

And to interdependents and many others that raid, EW. The Defenders are the enemy insofar as they get in the way. Raider Unity is merely a term that describes an existing phenomenon of raiders and raiding militaries commonly working together for a collective goal.

[Evil Wolf]

Yes, and the outright denial that it exists is a somewhat dangerous lie, wouldn't you say? Deny it or not, however, there have been a plenty of instances where Raider groups, who would have probably been at war with each other, instead worked with each other based solely on Raider Unity. It was and remains a powerful uniting force for those who follow it.

Speaking of which, this Nazi Europe thing brings up a very unusual situation, Invaders (mostly Imperialists) and Defenders both trying to attack the same region for a similar goal. Whenever Defenders start attacking a region, I know exactly what side of the conflict to be on, regardless of my past attempts on said region or even if there are some Invaders mixed in with them.

The instant I see a Fenda puppet in Nazi Europe, they will cease to be a neutral target in my books and start being a friend in need. For the enemy of my enemy is someone I want to keep alive.

[Captain Woodhouse]

Actually, most of us here are doing this because we'd dearly love to see NE getting the living shit kicked out of it by an invasion force than for any "noble reason".

Have you considered joining a dart league, consulting a spell caster or voodoo witch doctor, organizing a Moby Dick marathon?

Just trying to help you explore supplementary rage and revenge outlets for when the NE thrill is gone.

Nazi Europe was passworded for the majority of the time its been founderless, and passworded targets end up at the bottom of any hit list until the password can be obtained.

You were passworded for like...99% of that time, woodhouse.

You're both misinformed. Quilor, do you typically lean toward gross exaggeration? NE's founder CTEd December 2011. We were pretty much wide open until August 2012, when we received intel that New Warsaw Pact was preparing to hit us. We opened up and let the sunshine in again after a brief lockdown.

In October we learned Georgie wanted to break in, then TNP. I'd have to search my files to dig up the exact date the permanent password was applied, but we were open for business close to ten out of fifteen months.

They want your region destroyed and made into a Holocaust Memorial region.

You shitting me? That's a little crass, but okay. We'll be comforted in the knowledge that the outrageously popular NAZI EUROPE Holocaust Memorial will put The NationStates Holocaust Memorial out of business. The founder over there has a hard enough time staying awake without being cast in our shadow.

I doubt even TBR will notice when it goes down from neglect and rejection. We could potentially refound it as a Nazi theme park.

If my troops had taken the region last night, we would have stuck around, had our fun waited for a repeal to pass of the Liberation Proposal, and then left.

Were that the actual plan, you might have mentioned it to GD. Dunno about the likelihood of a Repeal when the Liberation-to-Invade received such overwhelming support.

I think Nazi Europe is very lucky to have German Dragons. As much as it seems I talk down to him, I actually have a lot of respect for him for what he did last night and I don't just mean having the presence of mind not to trust me. I think if anyone in Nazi Europe can hold off the tide, it's going to be him.

German Dragons is a fine young man; a kind and gentle soul. I hope that disclosure doesn't embarrass him . You're right, he's the only one who can do that saddle any justice.

[Bears Armed]

Drafting here was obviously unnecessary, as a large amount of WA Delegates seem to like the proposal as written judging by the number of approvals it has garnered thus far.

And a large number of NS-UN delegates liked 'Max Barry Day'...

[Lowell Leber]

Actually, most of us here are doing this because we'd dearly love to see NE getting the living shit kicked out of it by an invasion force than for any "noble reason".

Have you considered joining a dart league, consulting a spell caster or voodoo witch doctor, organizing a Moby Dick marathon?

Just trying to help you explore supplementary rage and revenge outlets for when the NE thrill is gone.

Nazi Europe was passworded for the majority of the time its been founderless, and passworded targets end up at the bottom of any hit list until the password can be obtained.

You were passworded for like...99% of that time, woodhouse.

You're both misinformed. Quilor, do you typically lean toward gross exaggeration? NE's founder CTEd December 2011. We were pretty much wide open until August 2012, when we received intel that New Warsaw Pact was preparing to hit us. We opened up and let the sunshine in again after a brief lockdown.

In October we learned Georgie wanted to break in, then TNP. I'd have to search my files to dig up the exact date the permanent password was applied, but we were open for business close to ten out of fifteen months.

They want your region destroyed and made into a Holocaust Memorial region.

You shitting me? That's a little crass, but okay. We'll be comforted in the knowledge that the outrageously popular NAZI EUROPE Holocaust Memorial will put The NationStates Holocaust Memorial out of business. The founder over there has a hard enough time staying awake without being cast in our shadow.

I doubt even TBR will notice when it goes down from neglect and rejection. We could potentially refound it as a Nazi theme park.

If my troops had taken the region last night, we would have stuck around, had our fun waited for a repeal to pass of the Liberation Proposal, and then left.

Were that the actual plan, you might have mentioned it to GD. Dunno about the likelihood of a Repeal when the Liberation-to-Invade received such overwhelming support.

I think Nazi Europe is very lucky to have German Dragons. As much as it seems I talk down to him, I actually have a lot of respect for him for what he did last night and I don't just mean having the presence of mind not to trust me. I think if anyone in Nazi Europe can hold off the tide, it's going to be him.

German Dragons is a fine young man; a kind and gentle soul. I hope that disclosure doesn't embarrass him . You're right, he's the only one who can do that saddle any justice.

As a member of the New Warsaw Pact I can tell you that the good captain is correct about the events of August 2012. NE was pretty much there for the taking for a long period of time.

[Bears Armed]

So, say that this proposal passes and an invasion subsequently succeeds: What would that actually achieve?
Of course the raiders could evict the nation's current residents and post a gloating message in its RMB, but the former residents could probably then re-group in a new region (with a founder for security) easily enough... but NS game mechanics mean that there could be no Nazi leaders brought (as in RL) before Nuremburg-style courts for real or percieved offenses against international law, no way of forcing the inhabitants to stay there under the rules of a new & non-Nazl regime, and of course no way of giving the region a less "objectionable" name without freeing-up the original name (after the re-founding which that would entail) for the Nazis to re-use in a new region of their own...
So: bragging rights for one or more invader groups, not actually any real win over Naziism as such, and in exchange for that the WA would be setting the precedent that "liberating" regions specifcally so that they could be invaded is acceptable?
Opposed.

[Cerian Quilor]

The point of drafting here is to get support for it, not to make it better written