[PASSED] Repeal "Liberate Nationalist Union"

[Everbeek]

It achieves that, if antifa ever let's the founder die, an antifa delegate can't password it to secure a refound.

Which isn't going to happen, so what's it achieving?

Not bloody much, but what does repealing it achieve except being a notch in the author's belt? (see this also works when the author isn't Mahaj!).

[Paper Flowers]

Which isn't going to happen, so what's it achieving?

Not bloody much, but what does repealing it achieve except being a notch in the author's belt? (see this also works when the author isn't Mahaj!).

This was essentially what I said last time a repeal was being drafted. While the chances of the repeal achieving it's original purposes are minimal at best, no author has been able to provide a genuine benefit to repealing besides getting their name onto the resolution list.

[Formisia]

If the region's been refounded then the "original" natives no longer have any claim to it. It has a new founder who considers the current residents to be natives. Therefore, Nationalist Union is currently in the hands of its natives. Therefore, the following chart applies:

Is the X region now in the hands of it's natives?

|
Yes
|
V

The natives want the liberation repealed?

|
Yes
|
V

Go for it.

Seems like a pretty cut and dry issue to me. I don't see the problem.

[Paper Flowers]

If the region's been refounded then the "original" natives no longer have any claim to it.

In your opinion.

It has a new founder who considers the current residents to be natives.

The griefer founder can consider who he likes to be natives, that doesn't make them such.

Therefore, Nationalist Union is currently in the hands of its natives.

Except it isn't.

Therefore, the following chart applies:

Except that for the reasons already stated, it doesn't.

Seems like a pretty cut and dry issue to me. I don't see the problem.

It is a cut and dry issue, why you have such difficulty understanding it really is interesting.

[Rhina]

The griefer founder can consider who he likes to be natives, that doesn't make them such.

Except that it does, because he's the founder. It's his region, after all.

[Paper Flowers]

The griefer founder can consider who he likes to be natives, that doesn't make them such.

Except that it does, because he's the founder. It's his region, after all.

Perhaps you'd care to link me to this game recognised definition of natives that you seem to have read? I'm just wondering if we're going to get anywhere other than an "is / isn't" argument here.

[The Great Destruction]

I'll support this proposal, lets see what the masses have to say about it...with their votes.

[Galdus]

The Nation States FAQ as rewritten by Paper Flowers:

FAQ

Who's in charge of a region?

The person who created a region is known as its Founder...accept when Paper Flowers decides that the Founder is a 'griefer' and is not a real Founder.

Founders can administer their region as they see fit...accept when Paper Flowers decides that a Founder is not a Founder, but a 'griefer' and has no right to be Founder of the region.

This proves beyond any doubt, that Paper Flowers obviously has a Narcissistic personality disorder (DSM-IV-TR 301.81). Therefore any comments by Paper Flowers regarding the legitimate founder of Nationalist Union have no validity whatsoever and should be ignored when Repeal "Liberate Nationalist Union" resolutions are being discussed.

Furthermore, this is a clearly a case of flame baiting by Paper Flowers, which has no place in a Security Council discussion and I am truly shocked that a moderator has not warned them against using such an offensive and libelous slur.

[Proletaurus]

Except that it does, because he's the founder. It's his region, after all.

Perhaps you'd care to link me to this game recognised definition of natives that you seem to have read? I'm just wondering if we're going to get anywhere other than an "is / isn't" argument here.

Perhaps It would be good to have Unibot or some high ranking ULD of FRA member to tell us all what is exactly 'Official' definition of term 'Native'. Then we can start to speak is there any reasons to change meaning of that word. Personally I'm eager to hear that, so it can be then after linked where ever needed... or then we all really start asking questions about, is or isn't any sense or meaning of whole word 'native' at all.

Unfortunately, Competent enought Oracles haven't yet came down from towers of wisdom to spread their hidden knowledge concerning this issue.

Current natives however doesn't want Liberation Repealed, as it doesn't make any difference in regional security from view points of Game Mechanics or regional suverenity of Nationalist Union... and it would effectively destroy beautiful landscape of The region.

PS. Personally I do not have any natives in Nationalist Union but I could move few there if needed.

[Topid]

The United States

World Assembly Delegate

To the author of this proposal,

I speak for myself, and my region, when I say that your proposal is very near a version which we would support, but as it stands is something we would have to vote against. It is quite possible there are very few that would make the same distinction between your argument and the one I suggest you make, but I do think you could win over a bit more support at the very least by taking my suggestions.

As it stands now, your argument is that because a resolution serves no purpose, it should be removed. This is something I disagree with on two basic levels, first, though keeping it in place may accomplish nothing, repealing it also accomplishes nothing. There's no advantage given to anyone and it doesn't make the World Assembly more pure or simple or anything else that I can see worth pursuing. Second, it is not up to us to determine if the resolution serves no purpose at all, that would be up to the natives. That is an argument I will oppose in all cases.

A different type of argument you could make would be the one Rhina, Gladus, and Antifa themselves have made, which is that Antifa are now the natives and they want the liberation removed. I would certainly accept that if the natives wanted a liberation removed in a situation like this, then by all means it should be removed. And unlike the other defenders I would at least be open to the idea that at some point Antifa could become natives, if they did more than keep the region empty as a name-holder, because a native belongs to a community, not just a region. And though Nationalist Union under Antifa is a region, it cannot be said to be a community, as it is just an inactive name-holder. So I'd have to reject that notion eventually too. (Though I'd be less against it, for sure.)

Finally, the argument I could and would for sure support, is that Liberate Nationalist Union, through references in the text of the WA books of law, draw attention to a victory of Antifa. Due to the laughable and inept nature of Antifa, the unskilled organization does not deserve such attention from the World Assembly, and thus the resolution should be repealed. I'd accept a version of that argument, even if heavily watered down. An argument that a victorious region destruction should not be advertised or recognized by this body would be equally supported.

Again, though, as it stands, with the resolution's "serving no purpose" at the core of the argument, I will vote against this.

Delegate of The States,
Topid

[Feux]

Thank you for your suggestions Topid. I have typed up a few clauses that in my opinion cover the arguments that you would like my proposal to convey to some extent before being submitted. I am still a little dissatisfied with the first clause at the moment due to the uneasy nature of native labeling and more than likely will make a few alterations. Also, I stole a few words from your suggests for the second clause. I hope you don't mind.

Further Recognizing the term native to be subjective to the individual or group of individuals that share in the same aspiration to advocate the barney that perhaps the current inhabiting company, which replaced the original dwellers, could be acknowledged to some extent as natives, which advocate the removal of this liberation;

Disillusioned in the conveyance the liberation resolution brings to the laughable and inept nature of a highly unskilled organization’s triumph that does not merit such attention;

[Sardakhar]

The Emperor, Almighty God on Earth, is currently tremendously busy dealing with domestic strife and left me on my own devices to make a short statement on behalf of our whole nation regarding this proposal to repeal Security Council #85: Liberate Nationalist Union. We SUPPORT it wholeheartedly and would like to see it being officially submitted, reach quorum, and eventually be passed.

Jonah Zarkos
Sardakhar Ambassador to the World Assembly

[Milograd]

I voted for this. TSP's internal vote is currently tied at 2-2, but the in-game vote supports the proposal and therefore I followed suit and voted in favor of this repeal. Our vote may change in the future depending on the status of our forum vote.

Merry Christmas!

Milograd
WA Delegate of the South Pacific

[Topid]

The "Disillusioned" clause has earned my support. Well put, Feux.

[NSMF Fire Team Alpha]

It is clearly stated that Antifa has taken over Nationalist Union within the Resolution itself. The fact that Antifa was capable of refounding it (some verification of this would be nice) does not now give Antifa the right to claim nativity in Nationalist Union.

If I were to steal your computer, erase everything, and re-booted with factory settings and register it in my name, does that automatically make it my computer? No.

It is with that same reasoning Antifa should not be allowed to repeal. It is clear that they want this done so they can password it and lock it up as one of their trophies.

[National Socializtiche]

the fact that the inept so called "antifa" managing to capture a region through the despicable use of the security council in the first place is reprehensible.

in fact antifa should really just skip all this beating around the bush and take regions fairly.

but i guess we're talking about antifa here....so

and antifa? your idea of a beautiful landscape is a barren wasteland littered with trash and pollution to everyone else.

im voting for. and hopefully someone drafts a follow up liberate nationalist union to get these squatters out.

[Allinlia]

It is clearly stated that Antifa has taken over Nationalist Union within the Resolution itself. The fact that Antifa was capable of refounding it (some verification of this would be nice) does not now give Antifa the right to claim nativity in Nationalist Union.

If I were to steal your computer, erase everything, and re-booted with factory settings and register it in my name, does that automatically make it my computer? No.

It is with that same reasoning Antifa should not be allowed to repeal. It is clear that they want this done so they can password it and lock it up as one of their trophies.

convinced me to reread the resolution and change my vote

the language of this proposal is deceptive, it is hard to tell which vote would be a showing of disapproval of antifa's actions without an extremely careful reading

[New Tarajan]

Kingdom of New Tarajan
Permanent Mission to the World Assembly

To our honourable colleagues,
the Reactionary Kingdom of New Tarajan do not hesitate to condemn the unjustified and viscid invasion perpetrated by those radicals and false libertarians with the only purpose to avoid other people could freely live with different opinions and political ideals.
This invasion is another demonstration of the arrogance and desire of domination of left-wing radicals and communists.
For this reason, we express our deep solidarity to the new-born Union of Nationalists. Also, we would express our VOTE AGAINST this resolution. We clearly understand the WA Security Council Resolution #85 has no more possibilities to be effective; however, we believe it to be a signal of the intentions of the International Community to not tolerate such acts of aggression.
If it is unuseful to maintain the resolution, we believe also to be unuseful to repeal it.

[Gullud]

Ambassador Ema Planta, the WA representative of the Most Serene Nation of Gullud and a WA Ambassador from the Democratic Socialist Alliance steps to the podium for a statement

We in the Most Serene Nation of Gullud are troubled by the slippery slope of this proposal. It feels to us that this repeal is a surrender of the Nationalist Union to the invading forces. I am saddened that the Liberation bill did not work; however, if we repeal a failing Liberation it will create a precedent where the Security Council does not liberate anyone. On behalf of the Most Serene Nation of Gullud, we vote Nay/No on this proposal.

[Shemiki]

AGAINST

The simple truth is that Antifa are raiders who took the region. The true natives, who have been forced to relocate twice now due to Antifa's continued bullying, should be returned home.

[Kelsonica]

It makes much more sense then the new repeal resolution which is just a bunch of confusing double talk. The original resolution makes much more sense and to the point therefore I am voting against the repeal.

Kelsonica

[The Imperial Kingdoms of Westovia]

The Security Council,

Recognizing the purpose of liberation resolutions to free regions from passwords that have been unwilling imposed upon or deemed unnecessary by the native communities within the regions concerning the liberation resolution;

Noting Security Council resolution number eighty-five was written to free Nationalist Union from the extremist left wing forces of Antifa;

Disappointed in how Nationalist Union fell to Antifa regardless of the liberation resolution to free the native community from the tyrannical administration established by the invading forces and the systematic dismantling of the community within the region;

Observing Antifa was successful in ascertaining its own administrative control over the region since April 10th, 2012 and replacing the original native community, which the liberation was written to protect, with members who's loyalty lays with that of the original invading force rendering the original purpose of the liberation obsolete;

Disillusioned in the conveyance the liberation resolution brings to the laughable and inept nature of a highly unskilled organization’s triumph that does not merit such attention;

Thankful that remnants of Nationalist Union's original native community have escaped the clutches of the Antifa forces by setting up residences within Union of Nationalists;

Further Recognizing the term native to be subjective to the individual or group of individuals that share in the same aspiration to advocate the barney that perhaps the current inhabiting company, which replaced the original dwellers, could be acknowledged to some extent as natives, which advocate the removal of this liberation;

Believing Security Council resolution number eight-five, at the current state, serves no purpose and should be repealed for the specified reasons above as well as cleanse the Security Council of despondent resolutions which could just serve as trophies for those that stand in opposition of the Security Council's mission to spread interregional peace and goodwill;

Hereby Repeals: "Liberate Nationalist Union"

Can someone please explain to me exactly what this involves? If I understand it right, this resolution was to try and prevent one region from taking over another region by the use of a password? Apparently, this involved Region A infiltrating Region B, using enough influence to gain control of Region B and then implementing a password to kick unwanted nations out of Region B. Do I have that correct? Does this also mean that the creator of Region B was kicked out as well? If someone could further explain this to a newcomer before he just throws out any old vote, could you?

[NSMF Fire Team Alpha]

From my understanding, Antifa invaded Nationalist Union and password-ed it hence the impetus behind the "Liberate Nationalist Union" resolution, which stripped Nationalist Union of the ability to impose a password on the region, then Antifa somehow refounded the region (verification is still lacking) and now wants to repeal this resolution under the excuse that they are now the natives of the region.

If it is true that the region was refounded, it is unclear if the effects of "Liberate Nationalist Union" are still active (i.e. unable to password the region). However I would argue that either way this repeal resolution should be rejected.

A: If the effects of Liberate Nationalist Union are still active, then Antifa should not be rewarded of their theft, because if this repeal passes, Antifa is going to lock it up as a trophy.

B: If the effects are not active, the resolution can still serve as a referendum on Antifa's actions (whether it has a mechanical effect or not is irrelevant) and thus the resolution must remain in place.

[Jamie Anumia]

-snip-

For the record, there is nothing stopping Antifa from placing a password on the region - liberations do not effect the power of the founder to implement a password.

[Communist Eraser]

Can someone please explain to me exactly what this involves? If I understand it right, this resolution was to try and prevent one region from taking over another region by the use of a password? Apparently, this involved Region A infiltrating Region B, using enough influence to gain control of Region B and then implementing a password to kick unwanted nations out of Region B. Do I have that correct? Does this also mean that the creator of Region B was kicked out as well? If someone could further explain this to a newcomer before he just throws out any old vote, could you?

Liberation resolutions prevent delegates (but not founders) from putting in a password. Nationalist Union was founderless back then and was invaded by Antifa. The liberation passed as one of the ways to stop Antifa from completely destroying aka refounding the region, but it was too stop and Antifa succeeded.

Since Nationalist Union now has a founder by Antifa, the liberation is now useless except for its symbolic effect. Whether you feel the symbolic effect is important, (so they liberation should stay), or whether you 'accept' Antifa won as a good thing, or if not a good thing, don't want the attention a "liberation resolution brings to the laughable and inept nature of a highly unskilled organization’s triumph" (so it should be repealed) is up to you.

Edit: NSMF Fire Team Alpha said it much better.