PASSED: Repeal "Commend 10000 Islands"

[Ailos (Ancient)]

Ok i have read the commendation of 10k islands and such. The WA is supposed to be about passing laws, and protecting the countless nations on NS. the commendation is clearly a waste of voting support. The commendation also disreagards the WA's purpos for being unbiased in decisions. Commending 10k islands and TITO was all well and good but did it need to be put to a vote? Commend them but dont let them be a bias in the WA decisions. I vote Repeal

[Grub]

This commendation doesn't bias the WA in any way toward the 10000 Islands. That part of the repeal is just made up by the author.

[King Kulla]

I am for the repeal only because the original commendation doesn't do justice to the glorious region of 10000 Islands. I will be in full support of a reworked and reworded commendation, provided it is written by someone who can string his or her words together to make clear, cohesive, and coherent sentences.

[Minyos]

I must admit to being somewhat at a loss as to why this repeal is up for vote. I understand that the author thinks the initial Commendation is badly written. I think Sedge made a point that defending is widely seen as being more in-tune (read morally correct) than invading; whilst Kandarin rightly points out that the whole invader/defender dynamic is probably not that well understood by many.

But, honestly, as others have pointed out - the Commendation was welcomed, it's not a Nazi Europe case where there are/were underlying reasons for a repeal, so I am somewhat bewildered. No, not bewildered, surprised this has even made quorum.

I fully respect the democratic process within the SC that allows this repeal to be voted upon - but frankly, after not-thinking about it for some hours, and coming back to it, it's gotta be AGAINST.

The guys like their Commendation, let them have it.

One last comment; I do agree it's a badly written Commendation, in that it lacks grace. But, they got their pretty badge, are happy with it and...well...let's not go sick on the repeals!

Iain.

[Ananke]

I am for the repeal only because the original commendation doesn't do justice to the glorious region of 10000 Islands. I will be in full support of a reworked and reworded commendation, provided it is written by someone who can string his or her words together to make clear, cohesive, and coherent sentences.

Heh, thanks King Kulla. The problem with repealing a SC resolution in order to get a replacement voted in is though that personally I doubt that'd happen. Most likely it'll end with the repeal. Which is fine if that's what you want of course, but might be a problem, if you're hoping for another commendation to replace it.

[Techno-Anarchists]

Posted with puppet, sorry for any confusion this may have caused.

[Aegara]

@ Morlango: Lol, I am actually laughing at how you think this is some kind of months-long plan to get back at you for suspending diplomatic relations Sure, we were a bit annoyed at the time, but I believe that this resolution is truly and fatally flawed, and as such should not be allowed to stand.

I also like your appeal to emotional fallacy, "we are soooooooooooo the victims of this all, it's their petty revenge" I say this to you definitively now. This had nothing to do GC-10KI relations (which TBH I never even thought of at the time) but someone said to me "this resolution is flawed" and so (and I am very flattered that you think I spent any amount of my time [read "wasted"] writing this resolution. In fact I wrote it in about 10 minutes!

[Grub]

This was posted on the RMB of Grand Central by the author of the repeal, Aegara. "Down with the Defender Machine! Stop the Lies! Enlist in the Grand Army today and do your bit, for Grand Central, and for raiders everywhere!"

This repeal is nothing less than an invader attack on defenders masked in a lie about grammar. Invaders are bullies plain and simple. They try to attack others without reason because it makes them feel good. Invading others shows their true weakness & their bullying is a sad reflection on themselves.

Not only should this repeal be voted down on its own lack or merit, but it should also be voted down to stand against the bullies of this game.

Vote against the repeal of the 10000 Islands commendation!

Grub
Founder - 10000 Islands

[Topid]

As shocked as I am that such messages would come from Grand Central, a region I thought I knew somewhat well...

That doesn't change the fact that there are rampant errors with this resolution. A better commendation is needed, this has 0% to do with TITO, their reputation and opinion don't matter. The WA should, at the very least, present some evidence when they preform an action... And hopefully, spell correctly.

My spelling is awful too, (really really bad). And the author did try to draft it, so none of this is his fault. It's more our fault for not catching the mistakes earlier, in the drafting process.

I vote FOR the repeal (with my puppet) and look forward to helping to draft the replacement.

[Aegara]

And? Grubbie, I think you're losing your touch with ad hominem attacks. What was that? Do I hear your real arguments anywhere? Nope. I have made no secrets that I am a raider (ideologically; I have never participated in a raid, being a WAD) but that is not the point being debated here. This really is a pitiful excuse for a WA resolution (of ANY type) and therefore I think it should be repealed.

Please note that the slogans were just a bit of fun poking, since you seem to think we are all a bunch of region-drestroying soulless neo-Nazis hell bent on eradicating all free will from NS.

[Grub]

You talk about this being poorly written, but you do not take into account about who wrote it. The original commendation was written by a non English speaker who proposed this because we defended their region from bullies like you. Just because they don't speak English very well doesn't alter the thought behind that commendation.

Something else important to note is that you once denied being an invader and that Grand Central ever took part in raids. All you have to do is look at the WFE for Sweden where you guys were mentioned for your role in the attack among other past events. When we heard that you were invaders we suspended diplomatic relations with you because we think it's wrong to attack innocent regions. This repeal is just you trying to get us back for standing up to your bullying.

Go spout your lies somewhere else.

[Dysian]

theres someone writing SC resolutions for the invader side as well huh? fighting fendas with their own weapon?

not my style really, I kill vampires with garlic - but can't say it's a bad thing either.

[Aegara]

Oh lol, this is turning into an "ignore-the-resolution-fest" and a "let's-just-make-ad-hominem-attacks too" one. Believe it or not Grub, people change. We weren't raiders once upon a time. Now we are. Big deal, as they say. Like so much of your propaganda, you want to throw up some chaff to defend yourselves. Well I'm telling you, it's not working this time. As I have said, this resolution was NOT written with diplomatic status, or any past events in mind. It is simply me, doing my job as WAD.

@Dysian: I just got the image of using vampires to kill vampiers in some kind of gangland warfare type deal

[Dysian]

well, getting the image in my head, it looks kinda cool
but lets see how this metaphor fares in practice

[Kalibarr]

I hardly think this repeal should be seen as a surprise. As others have said a raider region should be commended too. We have had a while and no one has done so,(if I'm not correct not even attempted to do so) so the argument that "oh it's only been a few months" is not going to hold up. I still think that just as a moderator can't be commended for being a mod, defenders and raiders can't be Commended or condemned for being Defenders or Raiders. In my opinion C&Cs are for alliances and nations that have ether been Imperialistic or Rough nations(condemn) is RPs or have fought against these rouge nations(commendation) or helped other players(by going by my opinion nazi europe would not have gotten condemned but I'm getting off topic). I have asked What Security Council resolutions are for(excluding liberations) and people were like "duh, for Rping!" (I think maybe even a mod said they were for RP purposes). If that is so why then does this resolution (and other like it) still stand? I urge Other nations to approve this repeal.

-Kalibarr

[Muammar al Gaddafi]

As the debate drags on ad nauseum, a distant sound begins to grow throughout the Security Council chamber. At first it is inaudible, nothing more than a whisper; but, in time, it grows louder and more disruptive, until inevitably the heads of all the assembled ambassadors are turned toward the newly rebuilt council doors, behind which a commotion is apparently developing.

"Sir, I ordered you to stop, you cannot- hey, someone get me back up!"

"Not be stopping freedom! Not be stopping equality! It is meant for all nations, big or small!"

With this triumphantly garbled cry, the brand new adorned doors smash open, and a seemingly deranged figure in a long cloak hurriedly shuffles through. With a flourish, he closes the door and bolts it shut. The room is sealed.

Like an entirely different man, he walks placidly up to the lectern, leafing through a white book as he does so. With some trepidation, he takes the microphone and, with a nod to his translator, begins to speak. Almost instantly, he returns to his deranged self.

"This should not be called the Security Council it should be called the Terror Council! Today we have 10000 Islands, perhaps tomorrow we shall have 20000 Islands!"

"This...white books states that all of the nations of the World Assembly are equal. How can be equal if not all nations get elect delegate!?"

"I do not know how this will be translated, but cat dog smoothie ocular walrus. Thanking you."

[Station Man]

... I still think that just as a moderator can't be commended for being a mod, defenders and raiders can't be Commended or condemned for being Defenders or Raiders...
If that is so why then does this resolution (and other like it) still stand? I urge Other nations to approve this repeal.
-Kalibarr

You are quite correct the issues are alway clouded as Good and Evil. ying and yang...the truth is avoided we exist together, and our differences are what help keep the game active.

Grub is an old player as am I, we are from the "OLD TIMES". Believe it or not I have high respect for him and I believe the reverse is also true. But this is not the issue.

The issue is C&C, as this discussion has brought out it is more a matter Defenders being Commended and Raiders being Condemned. When is should be who plays the best and fairest game. Both Defender and Raiders play fair games and some of both play unfair games.

I am surprised that Grub would even accept such an award, he is a pro and solid player. I understand that he was reluctant with it.

This process is skewed and the awards meaningless, it is time to straighten it away and award skill and game play and not Defender and Raider. For we are BOTH GOOD and Bad and this is what should be recognized!

OOC: Grub yes I do really respect you. But I will beat you whenever I am able.

So folks let's let this be the the beginning of:
PLACING TRUE VALUE in COMMENDATIONS AND CONDEMNATIONS

Vote YES and work on a reassessment on how these assignment are made.

[Grub]

Like I have said before, it is crazy to have a commendation or a condemnation and then have the ability to have it put back up for a near immediate vote. What a waste of time for all involved. No matter what you believe, the WA should hang its head in shame over this banana republic type of voting. There have been at least eight attempted repeals of this including one within hours of the commendation getting passed. These awards should say something like "Commendation...until we vote again on it next week."

Either have a commendation and have it mean something or get rid of it altogether. This system is horribly broken.

Grub

[Neasmyrna]

As others have said a raider region should be commended too.

Are you serious?

Things are not biased when they're true.

If a single invader region had survived long enough and left a positive impression on the game I'm sure they would be commended as well. As it is... that is simply not the case...

The SC would be biased if they commended all defender regions regardless of how much they have done. As it is that is simply not the case.

[Kandarin]

I can't in good faith vote for this repeal. Yes, the resolution was truly badly written, and regardless of the resolution author's mitigating circumstances that represents a serious hindrance to any desire to keep it on the books. The repeal doesn't stop with that, though. It goes on to describe the resolution as an example of a bias in favor of defenders and a threat to the 'fairness and neutrality' of the WA. This reinforces notions about the SC that are inimical to any positive use of it. For the WA to commend a defender region does nothing whatsoever to prevent RPers, Generalites, region-builders, invaders, GA regulars and the rest of the vast majority of the game that aren't defenders from commending or condemning things. Typo-laden though it is, Commend 10000 Islands doesn't limit other regions and groups, and consequently they shouldn't feel limited from using the C&C feature for their own purposes. If you feel that only groups with certain points of view have advanced resolutions in the SC, the answer is to advance your own resolutions and encourage others to do likewise. Suggesting that only one ideology or playstyle can do this at a time creates contention that doesn't need to be there and, pursued to its logical conclusion, will result in the SC being dominated by players that the repeal authors will find far more objectionable than 10000 Islands. Thus, against.

not my style really, I kill vampires with garlic - but can't say it's a bad thing either.

Fire and sunlight, yo.

[Kalibarr]

Defenders only emerged because of Raiders, so you could see that as their contribution to the game.In a natural ecosystem carnivores are actually good for a species as it leads to adaptation. See raiders is the carnivores and defenders as it's prey that learned to fight back and defends other organisms in it's ecosystem. You also say none of the raiders have been around long enough, sure some of the old raiding regions don't exist but their members likely moved on to another raiding region. You say that it would only be biased if all the defenders were commended,but in my opinion the only reason no one has done so is that many of them are multiple region alliances(like the FRA) and have no central region they are based in like TITO does. the Commendation is biased because it implies that the WA is thanking it for Defending regions from raiders.

[Savaer]

Heh, someone's agitated. "Gimme my badge back or trash the system!!!!!" About what I expected as the end result of your argument, Grub.

All part of the plan people.

You see the more time invader types spend on trying to bring down our commendation, the less time they spend invading regions - until eventually they'll be no invasions at all and our goals of total invader submission will have been accomplished.

MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! *cue thunder and lightning*

Actually, this hardly detracts at all from invading, planning and executing raids that leave defenders with a thumb on their head and asking which way'd they go. While I'm sure your post was meant as a satirical/sarcastic still. I couldn't help that.

Where is all of this hate coming from for the 10000 Islands? To answer some questions, there have been at least 7 or 8 *attempted* repeals of this commendation, which to me is crazy. This commendation was overwhelmingly voted upon originally. What's the point of these commendations/condemnations if they are just going to be struck down or challenged every week or so. It's a waste of my time and yours.

First: There doesn't have to be hate to desire to see a better made resolution. Not in grammar or spelling. That's actually negligible. I point to the current 'Commend Texas' proposal. Texas is a defender region, but the proposal isn't using that as a pushing point for the resolution. If 10KI deserves a commendation, let it be for more than just doing good at getting in the way, eh?

Anyway, this whole thing is a joke to me at this point. Commendations/Condemnations are so transitory that it's kind of pointless. This system is broken and needs to be fixed.

What's a joke is you keep telegramming my nation in Sweden to vote against it when I'm 150% FOR it. That's like me telegramming you asking for support in a raid. At best it makes me want to do the opposite. Just because.

This commendation doesn't bias the WA in any way toward the 10000 Islands. That part of the repeal is just made up by the author.

Not towards 10KI. It doesn't state that at all.
"DECLARING that extra-regional alliances should not have a place in the Commendation of one region;

CONDEMNING the bias towards defenders that has been shown in the Commendation of 10000 Islands; "

It states the bias towards defenders and this is WHY it's said that way, taken from the commendation itself: "KNOWING the existence of TITO, the Ten thousand Islands Treaty Organization.

RECOGNIZING TITO as one of the biggest and funcional defending alliance in NS world.

WANTING to thank the HQ region of TITO, 10000 Islands, for defending 1000 regions from raiders invasion.

HEREBY commend 10000 Island."

It isn't commending 10KI, it's commending TITO. TITO's presence in 10KI should not mandate a commendation just because they saved someone from a raid. I'm sure there are other dignifiable qualities in 10KI that would merit commending, but defending alone should have zero place in commendations. If not, well, then that's just an admittance of failure on your part, Grub. Just like Liberations are an admittance of failure by defenders to liberate a region, if defending is the only commendable thing in 10KI, you've failed to make a mark in 6 years time. And with the constant complaining about a broken system, you're only sounding like the invaders you condemn as bullies that complain about Liberations. Perhaps the entire concept of the security council should be wiped and the admin just limit passwords to visible, eh?

This was posted on the RMB of Grand Central by the author of the repeal, Aegara. "Down with the Defender Machine! Stop the Lies! Enlist in the Grand Army today and do your bit, for Grand Central, and for raiders everywhere!"

This repeal is nothing less than an invader attack on defenders masked in a lie about grammar. Invaders are bullies plain and simple. They try to attack others without reason because it makes them feel good. Invading others shows their true weakness & their bullying is a sad reflection on themselves.

Not only should this repeal be voted down on its own lack or merit, but it should also be voted down to stand against the bullies of this game.

Vote against the repeal of the 10000 Islands commendation!

Vote FOR to stand against hidden imperialism, defender instated delegates, and for accuracy of information, unbiased proposals and resolutions and show true strength! There's no actual attack on the grammar. It's the specification of commending a region for have a defender army, even if it has been active a long time. Your holier-than-thou attitude makes me actually think in real life you might be a fanatical preacher Some people enjoy politics. Some people enjoy role play. Some people get their kicks from hostile take-overs. it's legal, and generally a lot of raiders leave their targets unharmed save for the WFE, and some even restore than before they leave. It's actually more fun kicking defenders than it is kicking natives, you know. Some natives just get overly hostile and end up getting kicked just to protect them from a flaming report. Other times, it's defender headhunting that brings the raiders. And other times yet, there's a reason for the raid. A wrong doing, or illegal recruiting, or a region sending spies to a bigger region. (*cough*Eagle Clan*cough*)

[tone=bully]Oh, and gimme your lunch money, Grub![/bully]
Seriously, grub. That gets more stale than the 'Defenders are raiders in disguise' comments defenders complain about. When reason exists, we invade, when reason doesn't exist, we raid. Why? Thank Max Barry for this one set of lines right from the FAQ:
"Can I invade other people's regions? Yes."

[Neasmyrna]

You say that it would only be biased if all the defenders were commended,but in my opinion the only reason no one has done so is that many of them are multiple region alliances(like the FRA) and have no central region they are based in like TITO does. the Commendation is biased because it implies that the WA is thanking it for Defending regions from raiders.

The commendation is thanking a specific defender group for their hard work and commitment to defending against people who disrupt peaceful regions activities.

NS is not exactly a natural eco-system... and not all regions are open to being "hunted" so it doesn't quite work across the board in NS--although I get what you're trying to say.

but their members likely moved on to another raiding region.

and?

how are they supposed to be commended when they dissolve every 6 months or have revivals every 2 years and then fade back into nothingness?

Commendations as a whole are biased to people who have been around longest. You can't help that. Should we punish people worth commending because their foes can't stay in existence?

There are actually very few historically important/large defender regions in the game. Maybe 3-4 that are still functioning? They very easily could have all been commended by now.

If it is the SC's wish to thank defenders for "good" actions--that is simply not biased. It's like saying the UN is biased because they send a thank you note to south korea for doing something good and also biased for sending a warning to North Korea for being bad... is it biased that the UN prefers "good" behavior over "bad" behavior in the eyes of the UN?

It's all relative.

[Kalibarr]

but is being a raider "bad"? after all this is a game should people really get condemned or commended for the mere act of playing it?

[Neasmyrna]

When reason exists, we invade, when reason doesn't exist, we raid. Why? Thank Max Barry for this one set of lines right from the FAQ:
"Can I invade other people's regions? Yes."

Because you can do something makes it right?

Really? Seriously?

I don't even want to start with how many lame examples I can think of in RL.

If the majority of people in NS think one thing is better than another I think they have every right to express that opinion--in this case, their thanks.