[Defeated] Condemn Lazzarania

[Weed]

Lazzarina's arguments in this thread have been very convincing, this delegate is now in favour.

[Sedgistan]

This is not what I wanted to come back to see.

Posting some telegrams for gameplay purposes can be acceptable. Posting a whole ream of offensive messages that have allegedly been sent is not - those kinds of things should be reported via Getting Help Request. The telegrams have been removed from this thread, and Britarvia gets an unofficial warning. The punishment will be much more severe if you repeat an offence like this.

However, when the messages contain a vast amount of personal abuse and clear flames - posting to say that "it's all true" and that you "stand by every message you composed" is only going to get you in trouble. Lazzarania - *** 1 day ban for flaming/flamebaiting. ***

If the idiocy in this thread continues, the punishments will escalate.

[Dagguerro]

This whole discussion is absurd and rather unconstructive. I see a bunch of accusations which may or may not be true and Lazzarania yelling at everyone that its all lies but refusing to demonstrate how anything is actually a lie because he feels he shouldn't have to. Not to mention demanding people, who aren't even the author but are simply asking questions, to provide proof. Along with people claiming to be former natives coming in and supporting each of the two sides. Its a mess.

As far as "innocent until proven guilty" or "guilty until proven innocent" goes...that is a wholly irrelevant discussion. This is not a court of law with a formal burden of proof on the prosecution and level of proof required. Even if it is all a total fabrication it doesn't actually NEED any evidence if the author can convince enough nations to vote in favour. There is no judge to throw the case out from lack of evidence.


Given the seeming lack of solid proof for the allegations by the author but the simultaneous lack of any kind of proper refutation of them at present we are likely to vote in favour if this comes to vote based entirely on the fact that the author of this proposal seems more credible than Lazzarania.

- Lord Swift

[The divided]

If I were in the WA, I would vote for.

Here we have accusations by The Great Destruction, and responses by Lazz. However, instead of disproving the accusations, Lazz's actions and demeanor in this thread seem to suggest that this condemnation is warranted and justified.

[The Oan Isles]

Not say that we don't agree with this legislation but it lacks detail and substance. Implementation measures and methods are badly described or not at all. Have you considered the domino effect. Although it is commendable that you tried and that you have made a thread to gain support. I think you should have this legislation reviewed and edited. But in principal the idea is good and if I were a delegate I would have voted for it. But the principal is just as important as anything else so delegates would be reluctant.

[Weed]

After the contents of this thread, it is my honour to cast the first vote.

In favour.

[Discoveria]

The claims in the proposal have not been substantiated to our satisfaction. We therefore vote AGAINST in keeping with the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'. A nation should not be condemned by the SC for obnoxious behaviour on a debate thread.

In addition, we find it alarming that at least one nation believes that the burden of proof is on the accused. The burden of proof always rests with the person making a positive assertion. This is not just a principle of law but a basic requirement of logical argument. We urge all parties to return to calm and rational debate.

[Zevassa]

Lazzarania might be deserving of a condemnation, but this one isn't it. It's pretty much a hot mess of nothingness and unfounded rumor. In some cases there are blatant inconsistencies (as has been discussed in this topic).

I will be voting against this and encourage someone with more experience/knowledge to pen a proper condemnation against Lazzarania for his demeanor and conduct so that I may favor a more reasonable condemnation.

Edit: making my post more neutral and toning it down a notch, no need to fan the flames.

[The Foxfyre Islands]

While conduct on both sides of his debate have even poor The Foxfre Islands will not support a Resolution that appears to be nothing more than a personal grievence. After rereading the resolution and the entire thread this appears to be nothing more than hyped up drama. I think there are other things we could be concerned with.

[Csmdad]

While conduct on both sides of his debate have even poor The Foxfre Islands will not support a Resolution that appears to be nothing more than a personal grievence. After rereading the resolution and the entire thread this appears to be nothing more than hyped up drama. I think there are other things we could be concerned with.

Agreed. CSMDAD is voting against.

[The Brotherhood of Portugal]

While we don't believe Lazzarania is competent to rule this region, we cannot support a resolution that, like many others have pointed out, only seems to be a personal vendetta.

[Alvaradia]

Rhetoric is impressive from those who still refuse to address the issue at hand and still focus on the poster.

The ''condemnation'' is merely based on the original poster's grievances with Lazzarania. The two are intertwined and thus you cannot ignore the poster at all.

You have not provided factual evidence against the claims here. You have, however, been insulting and degrading to every poster here-and that definitely won't help your cause.

Every poster? More like TGD, you and a select few. Lazzarania may be impolite and lack forum etiquette, but we are not judging him based on his conduct in the thread and if I am honest, he is more of an aggrieved party to begin with. Lazzarania's actions as Founder of the RA are not against the rules and they were met with the support of the majority membership of the RA. TGD is merely acting childish with an immature condemnation filled with distortions and half truths.

I find it rather amusing that you fail to realize that the burden of proof is upon TGD and you, not Lazzarania. The proposal is filled with many claims, most of which is not supported by any evidence. How does he have a sphere of propaganda and discrimination? What is the proof that he is deleting a region to cover his history? These things are for TGD and, due to your constant support for him, you to defend. Discoveria's post summed things up better than I can:

The claims in the proposal have not been substantiated to our satisfaction. We therefore vote AGAINST in keeping with the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'. A nation should not be condemned by the SC for obnoxious behaviour on a debate thread. The burden of proof always rests with the person making a positive assertion.

The target nation has done little other than belittle and insult all other nations in the thread.

Baseless allegations do not really help your case. How has he ''belittle(d) and insult(ed)'' every other nation in this thread when he has mostly just been arguing with you and TGD. Most other members here do not agree with TGD's ''condemnation'' (which seems to be obvious personal bias).

The condemnation seems pretty babyish and the arguments behind it VERY flimsy. It doesn't get my support at all. If the author actually posted concrete truths with evidence to back them up, more people would probably support the condemnation; but as it stands, it doesn't seem very legitimate at all.

[Ananke II]

My ingame dealings with Lazzarania have always been pleasant, so I'm not inclined to condemn him just for shutting down his region.

[Wutheringham]

"all countries have a right to their own beliefs, customs, and ideals, and a right to voice them, a right that the nation of Lazzarania scoffed at"

Perhaps I'm wrong but my impression was that our membership of the World Assembly involves actively recognising this not to be the case

"your nation will be affected by any resolutions that pass. (Unfortunately you can't obey the resolutions you like and ignore the rest, like real nations.)"

Thus I find myself obliged to vote against this resolution.

[Lazzarania]

It seems an apology is in order due to my lack of "forum etiquette." So, to all those observing my textual displeasure at yet again being the object of unfounded allegations of misconduct in the manner of supposed "crimes", I apologize.

Certain parties seem to be hellbent on "condemning" me by any and all means possible. Their attitude seems to be that one need only accuse me of "crimes" and this suffices as reason for me to mount a defense. That is their opinion, and that is the manner in which they'd like to see matters of this nature proceed. I happen to have a diametrically opposed view. My view is that one is "innocent until proven guilty", and that if there is truly any substance to the allegations this should be apparent or made apparent to the audience. The allegations are what should be subject to intense scrutiny, and not the accused.

Many players take the World Assembly very seriously. The presentation of condemnation proposals against me of the kind and type seen in this thread, and seen in others similar, only serves to vitiate the World Assembly.

My object was to demonstrate that I was being subjected to "kangaroo court" style tactics. My hope is that every player who experiences the same, will immediately and without apology request that the accusers present the unassailable evidence to back up their claims. That is the just and honest way to conduct these types of debates. If some "evidence" had been presented I would surely have answered. As it stands not a scrap of hard evidence has materialized. For me to be guilty of many of the accusations, it would have taken a person capable of reading hearts and minds. No such person exists.

[Vanhania]

I do not see why this is even up for vote. It is Lazzarania's region that Lazzarania founded, If that nation/player wishes to end the region it is their choice. It is ignorant to even propose condeming Lazzarania for doing so. People can move its as simple as that, he is not raiding the region so its not some terrible action to shut down the region he created.

[The Great Destruction]

The ''condemnation'' is merely based on the original poster's grievances with Lazzarania

Not so. The proposal is based on the continued occurances of maltreatment of many nations. I can attest to my own experiences and I do, which is why you may be mistaken here.

"all countries have a right to their own beliefs, customs, and ideals, and a right to voice them, a right that the nation of Lazzarania scoffed at"

Perhaps I'm wrong but my impression was that our membership of the World Assembly involves actively recognising this not to be the case

"your nation will be affected by any resolutions that pass. (Unfortunately you can't obey the resolutions you like and ignore the rest, like real nations.)"

Yes you are forced to extend those rights to your nations population by not necesarily to that of another's.

I do not see why this is even up for vote. It is Lazzarania's region that Lazzarania founded, If that nation/player wishes to end the region it is their choice. It is ignorant to even propose condeming Lazzarania for doing so. People can move its as simple as that, he is not raiding the region so its not some terrible action to shut down the region he created.

It is not that Lazz closed the region that is the issue. It is the way Lazz did this that is condemnable. take a look at this from the Compendium of Mod Rulings & General Advice within the SC:

Legal/illegal actions:


The Ruleset wrote:(i} You may condemn the way a nation or region performed a legal action.
(ii) If the illegal action should be dealt with in Moderation, don’t make a C&C about it.

It is a common defence that "raiding is legal, and therefore the Security Council should not condemn a nation/region for it". That is irrelevant. The Security Council will nearly always be passing resolutions about legal actions. What matters is the way those legal actions are done.
See also here and here.

This is what is important. Lazz closed the region far to swiftly for many of the nations to get out and get organised. Reasonable explanation for this has not been given to those nation nor will it(probably). Furthermore while the region was founded by Lazz, the community itself belonged to all of the member nations and so some ethical treatment of said community is in order. Now while some nations did manage to make it to a few outlying areas together, just as many were spread to the four winds(such as TRR). And this is only part of the condemnation at hand.

For me to be guilty of many of the accusations, it would have taken a person capable of reading hearts and minds. No such person exists.

Seek Jesus brother, he can. Otherwise this is why I have you as a character witness. Your heart and mind are made prevelant by the atrocious way you comport yourself in this thread.

[Lazzarania]

What makes you think you're the judge on the acceptable time frame in these matters? One second I'm causing nations to CTE (takes at least 28 days for this to happen), the next I'm closing down my region too quickly, in your celebrated opinion.

Logically, it all falls down from the point of view that it isn't illegal to ban/eject people from a region even if it was for nefarious reasons. As NS states in its information, some WA Delegates ban/eject nations because they fear they will gain support and attempt to topple them, which is as far away from my orderly closure of The Royal Alliance as one could possibly get.

One could argue that it is you that is acting atrociously, when one considers that for the second time you've put up a condemnation proposal solely based on personal grievances; a condemnation where you've assigned motive and intent where there is zero evidence to support your opinions.

[Drop Your Pants]

Furthermore while the region was founded by Lazz, the community itself belonged to all of the member nations and so some ethical treatment of said community is in order.

Thats your biggest mistake there. Founder owns the region not the people in it. If he chooses to kick everyone out then in game terms he's allowed to.

[The Foxfyre Islands]

Furthermore while the region was founded by Lazz, the community itself belonged to all of the member nations and so some ethical treatment of said community is in order.

Thats your biggest mistake there. Founder owns the region not the people in it. If he chooses to kick everyone out then in game terms he's allowed to.

Agreed, this whole resolution is a waste of time and simple airing of a personal vendetta.

[The Great Destruction]

Furthermore while the region was founded by Lazz, the community itself belonged to all of the member nations and so some ethical treatment of said community is in order.

Thats your biggest mistake there. Founder owns the region not the people in it. If he chooses to kick everyone out then in game terms he's allowed to.

I own a dog. Does that mean I have a right to beat it wihtin an inch of its life?

[South Zagora]

No. This issue belongs to the region and the alliance in which this occured. Not the WA.

[Kanaia]

Thats your biggest mistake there. Founder owns the region not the people in it. If he chooses to kick everyone out then in game terms he's allowed to.

I own a dog. Does that mean I have a right to beat it wihtin an inch of its life?

It is ridiculous to equate emptying a region to animal abuse.

[Bonifatus]

As far as I can see this is a resolution to condemn Lazzarania solely for shutting down a region which is pretty much just restated many different ways in the resolution. Before voting I beg you to look at Lazzarania's civil rights, political freedoms, and economy. I do feel bad for everybody who had to find a new region, but I find this to be too much of an act of vengeance. Personally I am disgusted that this ever reached quorum
-- Marcus Aurelius
Representative
Bonifatus Department of The Interior

[Drop Your Pants]

Thats your biggest mistake there. Founder owns the region not the people in it. If he chooses to kick everyone out then in game terms he's allowed to.

I own a dog. Does that mean I have a right to beat it wihtin an inch of its life?

Your really trying to compare RL animal abuse to a founder of a region in NS? Oh deary deary me.