PASSED: Repeal "Liberate Feudal Japan"

[Qumkent]

Quite right. This was a good idea for those password invasions where a password was put into place immediately after the initial invasion. But now it's just becoming a tool to that the WA really should be quick to ignore. I mean, if this worked in the real UN (yeah, I'll make an analogy on that), what, would the UN have proposed a "Liberate Iraq" in which they remove the US's password from the nation?

OOC What on earth are you even saying here ?

[New Rockport]

As far as I know the current invade delegate of FJ - The Kabushiki Kaisha of The KoZ could be a defender puppet.

According to NSWiki, the KoZ "...chose to establish a new home in Feudal Japan (January 2006), assuming a role with the government's ministry of finance (Okurasho) and turning from the bitterness of its military past to focus upon economic prosperity for a brighter tomorrow. After serving six months in this capacity, Lord KoZ was selected as the new Shogun, supreme rule of Feudal Japan."

[Sedgistan]

Hi, I'm new. Why was Feudal Japan invaded in the first place? I'm just trying to get the whole story before casting my yays or nays.

To give a more accurate answer than Todd's:

I'd suggest reading through the debate on the original resolution, as the best way of learning more about the invasion of Feudal Japan. In particular, you can see for yourself that Hamagatama Zenshi is not a native, in his post here: viewtopic.php?p=469281#p469281 . That also happens to include proof that The KoZ is indeed a native (he is mentioned as the delegate prior to the invasion).

What happened since then, is that the Liberate Feudal Japan resolution was passed. After about a month of waiting, the region was then truly liberated, and the invaders kicked out (with the exception of Hamagatama Zenshi, only because The KoZ doesn't have enough influence yet).

The natives of Feudal Japan now desire to re-found their region, so that they will not live under the constant threat of invasion. In order to re-found, they need a password installed, so that they don't have invaders trying to take the region prior to re-founding.

If you want proof that the natives support this resolution, I'd suggest taking a visit to their forum (listed on the Feudal Japan World Factbook Entry), or simply looking at the proposer of the resolution - The KoZ, long-time native and Shogun of Feudal Japan.

[Martyrdoom]

As far as I know the current invade delegate of FJ - The Kabushiki Kaisha of The KoZ could be a defender puppet.

According to NSWiki, the KoZ "...chose to establish a new home in Feudal Japan (January 2006), assuming a role with the government's ministry of finance (Okurasho) and turning from the bitterness of its military past to focus upon economic prosperity for a brighter tomorrow. After serving six months in this capacity, Lord KoZ was selected as the new Shogun, supreme rule of Feudal Japan."

Thanks for the link. But it is a wiki entry after all, modified May 2009.

[Sedgistan]

As far as I know the current invade delegate of FJ - The Kabushiki Kaisha of The KoZ could be a defender puppet.

According to NSWiki, the KoZ "...chose to establish a new home in Feudal Japan (January 2006), assuming a role with the government's ministry of finance (Okurasho) and turning from the bitterness of its military past to focus upon economic prosperity for a brighter tomorrow. After serving six months in this capacity, Lord KoZ was selected as the new Shogun, supreme rule of Feudal Japan."

Thanks for the link. But it is a wiki entry after all, modified May 2009.

You should be able to see the history of the edits of the page (including all the former versions of it). That quote has been there from the start.

[New Rockport]

As far as I know the current invade delegate of FJ - The Kabushiki Kaisha of The KoZ could be a defender puppet.

According to NSWiki, the KoZ "...chose to establish a new home in Feudal Japan (January 2006), assuming a role with the government's ministry of finance (Okurasho) and turning from the bitterness of its military past to focus upon economic prosperity for a brighter tomorrow. After serving six months in this capacity, Lord KoZ was selected as the new Shogun, supreme rule of Feudal Japan."

Thanks for the link. But it is a wiki entry after all, modified May 2009.

You might not have noticed, but I linked to the July 19, 2006 version of the page.

[Andrewboy]

i think that feudal japan has deserved the right to be liberated.they got freed for a reason and i think if this issues doesn't end here this will get messy.i think that if we can just keep fudal japan liberated we might be able to stop a war breaking out.

[Sedgistan]

You don't really understand, do you? The Liberation resolution only removes the ability to password the region, it doesn't actually 'liberate' (ie take the region off the invaders, so it can be returned to the natives). Now that the region has actually been liberated, so its in the hands of the natives again, they want to be able to password-protect it, to improve their security. The only danger of a war breaking out is if it is left without the ability to password-protect itself, which means the invaders will try to take over again.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

I suspect this is the culmination of Max's grand vision for the UN/WA when he founded it back in 2002: procedural votes on whether a region can have its password back?

Against.

[Andrewboy]

You don't really understand, do you? The Liberation resolution only removes the ability to password the region, it doesn't actually 'liberate' (ie take the region off the invaders, so it can be returned to the natives). Now that the region has actually been liberated, so its in the hands of the natives again, they want to be able to password-protect it, to improve their security. The only danger of a war breaking out is if it is left without the ability to password-protect itself, which means the invaders will try to take over again.

wow the blind eyed and short view of some people astounds me

[The Sedge]

You don't really understand, do you? The Liberation resolution only removes the ability to password the region, it doesn't actually 'liberate' (ie take the region off the invaders, so it can be returned to the natives). Now that the region has actually been liberated, so its in the hands of the natives again, they want to be able to password-protect it, to improve their security. The only danger of a war breaking out is if it is left without the ability to password-protect itself, which means the invaders will try to take over again.

wow the blind eyed and short view of some people astounds me

Well I wrote the original resolution, with this nation. Do you want to explain your opposition a bit better? Why do you want to deny the natives the ability to password-protect their region, now that they've finally reclaimed it after a 2 year struggle.

[Andrewboy]

dont you see what this can become.the invaders will just try and liberate them again and if feudal japan does not manage to get rid of all the invaders theire befire this passes they are back to square 1

[Sedgistan]

Well if they aren't allowed a password protection, then invaders will try and invade them again (not 'liberate' - thats what you do when you restore the region to native control). If this resolution passes, they can password-protect the region, and be safe from invasion forever - because the plan afterwards is to re-found. If you really think that invaders will try and pass a liberation resolution in-between this resolution passing (assuming it does), and the re-founding happening... then you should really think again. The WA is more educated than that (Condemn Nazi Europe aside ), and I highly doubt an invader-written resolution would pass.

EDIT: Also, there's only 1 invader left in Feudal Japan, I kicked out the rest. The last one will be gone soon.

[Evil Wolf]

Oh come on Sedge, that's a cop-out and you know it. Does every region put up a password after it's been "liberated"? I think not, in fact a vast majority do not. Might crashers come back? Yeah, you basically made FJ one of the most highly political targets in recent Crasher history. Does that mean we'd win if you didn't have a password? Heh, not if you defenders do the job you claim to be so good at.

And lets be honest, passwords really don't prevent Crashers at all. I've been able to get through several passwords of high valued targets via deception and just sheer luck in the past. With all the crashers in NS, it only a matter of time until someone obtains that password and calls down hell on the region.

[Andrewboy]

Oh come on Sedge, that's a cop-out and you know it. Does every region put up a password after it's been "liberated"? I think not, in fact a vast majority do not. Might crashers come back? Yeah, you basically made FJ one of the most highly political targets in recent Crasher history. Does that mean we'd win if you didn't have a password? Heh, not if you defenders do the job you claim to be so good at.

And lets be honest, passwords really don't prevent Crashers at all. I've been able to get through several passwords of high valued targets via deception and just sheer luck in the past. With all the crashers in NS, it only a matter of time until someone obtains that password and calls down hell on the region.

exactly. there is a bigger picture here

[Sedgistan]

I'm trying to encourage Andrewboy to explain his opposition to this, which at the moment, he's not doing particularly well.

To answer Evil Wolf: No, not every region puts up a password, but obviously Feudal Japan is a target. The natives always knew that, and they'd always planned to re-found after being liberated. Us defenders can't afford to sit in the region forever - there are always other places being invaded. The only way they can be truly secure, is to re-found.

As for passwords not being entirely secure - you're correct there, but don't assume that Feudal Japan will make the same mistake. Since the password will not be shared with anyone, there's no chance it'll be leaked. Besides, the password would only be a short-term measure to enable re-founding. Once thats done, the region will be entirely secure. Of course, the repeal of my original resolution is necessary for this, hence why I am urging people to vote for the repeal.

[Evil Wolf]

The thing that annoys me the most about this is that, sure, Liberation Proposals are now part of the game play, but they have become a tool for defenders and for defenders only. As Sedge himself admitted, no Crasher could ever hope of getting a Liberation Proposal passed (and even if we did that target would instantly be watched by every defender in NS).

I know in the past there have been argument of Admin/Mod bias, and I don't really buy into that crap. But this was a mistake on the part of those who implemented the Liberation Proposals. They showed favoritism, even if it wasn't their original intent, and that really screws with the whole game dynamics.

No one likes griefers, that's a fact, but the way the Admins went about fixing it, by giving the game a tool that was clearly aimed at helping the defender side instead of coming up with a side-neutral fix, really doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

[Sedgistan]

Well you can hardly expect the admins to implement something to help griefers? Besides, as argued before, these resolutions are made for the natives of regions targeted by griefers, not for defenders. It just happens that defenders side with the natives.

[Andrewboy]

I'm trying to encourage Andrewboy to explain his opposition to this, which at the moment, he's not doing particularly well.

To answer Evil Wolf: No, not every region puts up a password, but obviously Feudal Japan is a target. The natives always knew that, and they'd always planned to re-found after being liberated. Us defenders can't afford to sit in the region forever - there are always other places being invaded. The only way they can be truly secure, is to re-found.

As for passwords not being entirely secure - you're correct there, but don't assume that Feudal Japan will make the same mistake. Since the password will not be shared with anyone, there's no chance it'll be leaked. Besides, the password would only be a short-term measure to enable re-founding. Once thats done, the region will be entirely secure. Of course, the repeal of my original resolution is necessary for this, hence why I am urging people to vote for the repeal.

can you be sue of that?no!you will never secure the region no matter what you do and it is to big a target to not be re-invaded/somebody will eventually get in and this will all start again.i thnk if this proposal passes it will just set soothing bigger up next time but if it doesn't feudal japan probalby will be invaded anyway but it wont be as big aso this matter will be out of the WA's mind and it can focous on bigger problems.

[Sedgistan]

Your argument is factually incorrect - if the region was re-founded, the founder could just boot out any invaders.

However, added to that, you're saying that because there could be a future invasion, the region should be left as is, when there's an even bigger chance of an invasion now. I don't understand the logic.

[Andrewboy]

i wouldn't expect you to

[Cinistra]

Why can't Feudal Japan just refound ? Do they really need a WASC resolution to manage this?

[Sedgistan]

OK, well then explain it to me. How is it better to leave the region vulnerable to invasion now, just because the action we could otherwise take would still leave a minute chance of invasion?

[Sedgistan]

Why can't Feudal Japan just refound ? Do they really need a WASC resolution to manage this?

Because re-founding without a password is suicidal - you have to empty out all the nations (which takes time), so invaders could move in when there's only a few left.

[Andrewboy]

Why can't Feudal Japan just refound ? Do they really need a WASC resolution to manage this?

that pretty much rounds up the explanation