[PASSED] Liberate Christmas

[Cormac Stark]

I'm completely finished with the philosophical argument that has dominated 22 pages of this thread. We've all made our points, often more than once, and there's no point in making them again.

Neglected during this philosophical discussion have been some technical issues with the resolution itself:

- The liberation resolution states "that the region of Christmas was raided by forces of Asgard, The New Inquisition, and The Land of Kings and Emperors on July 4th, 2012." While TNI and The LKE provided support after update, neither were present at update making this statement false. If the Security Council passes this resolution, it will be enshrining false accusations against two regions into interregional law.

- The liberation resolution states that "the native community in Christmas . . . has been forcibly removed." Again, this is not the case. There are six native nations remaining in the region. While we believe that four of these nations belong to one person, there are at least three natives remaining in the region -- again making this liberation resolution inaccurate.

- The liberation resolution misspells the word "swiftly" as "swifly." While I wouldn't normally quibble over a typographical error, the World Assembly has come to expect a higher quality in its proposals and this resolution does not meet those standards.

While I doubt that these technical points have been brought up in time to sway the vote for this resolution, they would certainly provide some grounds for a repeal if anyone is interested in taking up that project. And of course, for these reasons and for the reasons we've already presented, we encourage anyone and everyone to change their votes. There's still time.

[Damanucus]

I'm completely finished with the philosophical argument that has dominated 22 pages of this thread. We've all made our points, often more than once, and there's no point in making them again.

Neglected during this philosophical discussion have been some technical issues with the resolution itself:

- The liberation resolution states "that the region of Christmas was raided by forces of Asgard, The New Inquisition, and The Land of Kings and Emperors on July 4th, 2012." While TNI and The LKE provided support after update, neither were present at update making this statement false. If the Security Council passes this resolution, it will be enshrining false accusations against two regions into interregional law.

- The liberation resolution states that "the native community in Christmas . . . has been forcibly removed." Again, this is not the case. There are six native nations remaining in the region. While we believe that four of these nations belong to one person, there are at least three natives remaining in the region -- again making this liberation resolution inaccurate.

- The liberation resolution misspells the word "swiftly" as "swifly." While I wouldn't normally quibble over a typographical error, the World Assembly has come to expect a higher quality in its proposals and this resolution does not meet those standards.

While I doubt that these technical points have been brought up in time to sway the vote for this resolution, they would certainly provide some grounds for a repeal if anyone is interested in taking up that project. And of course, for these reasons and for the reasons we've already presented, we encourage anyone and everyone to change their votes. There's still time.

For the first time in the past few days of debate and vote, I shall be speaking towards the Assembly, and this time to the representative from Cormac Stark.

1. They may not have been present at update, but they were there to reinforce Asgard's power when the region entered Christmas, preventing other forces from removing you from power. As such, they were part of the invasion, even if in a reinforcing manner.
2. Can we ask how many were ejected when you had power? The fact that there are natives still the region does not constitute to this being a fallacy, but how many were ejected by you will.
3. ...Of course. (OOC: Had to happen some time, didn't it?)

Would you care to address these points?

Stephanie Orman
Representative, Nomadic Peoples of Damanucus

[Cormac Stark]

They may not have been present at update, but they were there to reinforce Asgard's power when the region entered Christmas, preventing other forces from removing you from power. As such, they were part of the invasion, even if in a reinforcing manner.

That's true, but that's not what the liberation resolution says. The liberation resolution says "that the region of Christmas was raided by forces of Asgard, The New Inquisition, and The Land of Kings and Emperors on July 4th, 2012."

The use of the word "raided" rather than "invaded" or, even clearer, "occupied" strongly implies that TNI and LKE were present at update when in fact they were not. The absence of any mention of other regions and organizations that offered support later -- including DEN Central Command and Unknown -- definitely implies that Mahaj believed, wrongly, that TNI and LKE were present at update and made that ignorant and false accusation in this resolution.

And, in any case, the invasion was Asgard's and Asgard's alone. We appreciate our allies' support but we will take responsibility for our own actions and we ask the Security Council not to heap responsibility for our invasion onto the shoulders of others at the selective whims of this proposal's author.

Can we ask how many were ejected when you had power? The fact that there are natives still the region does not constitute to this being a fallacy, but how many were ejected by you will.

Four nations have been ejected thus far, but that's really beside the point. The liberation resolution states that "the native community in Christmas . . . has been forcibly removed." That strongly -- and misleadingly -- implies that all natives have been ejected from the region. They have not. The remaining natives could strike up a community right this second.

Believe me, I'm not trying to argue that we didn't eject natives from the region. We did, no doubt about it. But that's the argument that Mahaj should have made, that some natives were ejected from the region. Instead he said that "the native community . . . has been forcibly removed," which is inaccurate and misleading.

Even supporters of this resolution should be able to acknowledge that this proposal is extremely flawed, and they should insist that the proposal's author come back with something that meets the World Assembly's usual standards.

[Damanucus]

They may not have been present at update, but they were there to reinforce Asgard's power when the region entered Christmas, preventing other forces from removing you from power. As such, they were part of the invasion, even if in a reinforcing manner.

That's true, but that's not what the liberation resolution says. The liberation resolution says "that the region of Christmas was raided by forces of Asgard, The New Inquisition, and The Land of Kings and Emperors on July 4th, 2012."

The use of the word "raided" rather than "invaded" or, even clearer, "occupied" strongly implies that TNI and LKE were present at update when in fact they were not. The absence of any mention of other regions and organizations that offered support later -- including DEN Central Command and Unknown -- definitely implies that Mahaj believed, wrongly, that TNI and LKE were present at update and made that ignorant and false accusation in this resolution.

And, in any case, the invasion was Asgard's and Asgard's alone. We appreciate our allies' support but we will take responsibility for our own actions and we ask the Security Council not to heap responsibility for our invasion onto the shoulders of others at the selective whims of this proposal's author.

So a raid only defines the action of entering the region? I feel I may need to update my dictionary; I'm sure it involves not just taking the power, but making sure it is secure.

Can we ask how many were ejected when you had power? The fact that there are natives still the region does not constitute to this being a fallacy, but how many were ejected by you will.

Four nations have been ejected thus far, but that's really beside the point. The liberation resolution states that "the native community in Christmas . . . has been forcibly removed." That strongly -- and misleadingly -- implies that all natives have been ejected from the region. They have not. The remaining natives could strike up a community right this second.

Believe me, I'm not trying to argue that we didn't eject natives from the region. We did, no doubt about it. But that's the argument that Mahaj should have made, that some natives were ejected from the region. Instead he said that "the native community . . . has been forcibly removed," which is inaccurate and misleading.

Even supporters of this resolution should be able to acknowledge that this proposal is extremely flawed, and they should insist that the proposal's author come back with something that meets the World Assembly's usual standards.

Actually, it is a point. You ejected four nations from the region, leaving six—three, if you consider the possibility of puppets—nations. That, in reality, is still ejecting a community. You've sliced it up, which is worse, but the community is gone in either case.

Stephanie Orman
Representative, Nomadic Peoples of Damanucus

[Cormac Stark]

Actually, it is a point. You ejected four nations from the region, leaving six—three, if you consider the possibility of puppets—nations. That, in reality, is still ejecting a community. You've sliced it up, which is worse, but the community is gone in either case.

I don't think we really want to play the numbers game here. You're manipulating the numbers to make your case, but we have no idea how many puppets belonging to the same person were in Christmas. I don't think Research Aide was ever part of any "community." Meanwhile, I've noticed that Lebuckte and Christmas Bunny have an uncanny ability to log in at the exact same time on a fairly regular basis. If there's only one person behind those two nations, that particular "native" still has a puppet in Christmas and hasn't actually been ejected.

It's quite possible that the only active individual who has been ejected from Christmas is Scrooger Codger, and I'm still waiting to hear from defenders on whether or not they even consider him a native given that he once raided the region.

Bottom line: The liberation resolution strongly implies that we have ejected all the natives. We haven't. But what could be the even more serious problem is that the liberation resolution takes for granted that a "community" ever existed in Christmas. It didn't. A community implies interaction, and there's absolutely no evidence that the natives ever interacted with each other -- they certainly didn't on the RMB. Either way, the liberation resolution is inaccurate, misleading, and should be rejected by the Security Council.

[Everbeek]

Four nations have been ejected thus far, but that's really beside the point. The liberation resolution states that "the native community in Christmas . . . has been forcibly removed." That strongly -- and misleadingly -- implies that all natives have been ejected from the region. They have not. The remaining natives could strike up a community right this second.

Only because you did not have the influence yet to eject them all, I wager. Do not pretend that you left those other natives in the region out of kindness.

[Damanucus]

Actually, it is a point. You ejected four nations from the region, leaving six—three, if you consider the possibility of puppets—nations. That, in reality, is still ejecting a community. You've sliced it up, which is worse, but the community is gone in either case.

I don't think we really want to play the numbers game here. You're manipulating the numbers to make your case, but we have no idea how many puppets belonging to the same person were in Christmas. I don't think Research Aide was ever part of any "community." Meanwhile, I've noticed that Lebuckte and Christmas Bunny have an uncanny ability to log in at the exact same time on a fairly regular basis. If there's only one person behind those two nations, that particular "native" still has a puppet in Christmas and hasn't actually been ejected.

It's quite possible that the only active individual who has been ejected from Christmas is Scrooger Codger, and I'm still waiting to hear from defenders on whether or not they even consider him a native given that he once raided the region.

Bottom line: The liberation resolution strongly implies that we have ejected all the natives. We haven't. But what could be the even more serious problem is that the liberation resolution takes for granted that a "community" ever existed in Christmas. It didn't. A community implies interaction, and there's absolutely no evidence that the natives ever interacted with each other -- they certainly didn't on the RMB. Either way, the liberation resolution is inaccurate, misleading, and should be rejected by the Security Council.

Then answer this question, with full honesty, and without telling us to refer back to previous argument (OOC: In other words, you have a chance to be straight up in one post, and one post only): Can you guarantee that the region of Christmas will be able to function as an independent community, without interference by any power, occupying or otherwise, as a result of your region's occupation?

Stephanie Orman
Representative, Nomadic Peoples of Damanucus

[Cormac Stark]

Only because you did not have the influence yet to eject them all, I wager. Do not pretend that you left those other natives in the region out of kindness.

You're absolutely right, no pretension here. That's not the point. The point is that the liberation resolution implies that all natives have been ejected. That's how the average person is going to read it. That's inaccurate and misleading and therefore it should be rejected, unless the Security Council is now in the business of giving authors a pass to mislead voters.

Can you guarantee that the region of Christmas will be able to function as an independent community, without interference by any power, occupying or otherwise, as a result of your region's occupation?

No, and we've never claimed that would be the case. We have said all along that we will maintain control of the Founder account. That is by its very definition some interference, so I would be lying if I said there would be none.

However, the region of Christmas will be able to function with a great degree of independence if we refound it -- arguably a greater degree than now, given how vulnerable it is to constant invasion. I should also stress, again, that the natives have expressed no interest in being "an independent community." They've expressed an interest in returning to the status quo, which certainly was not "an independent community." Christmas has neither been independent nor a community for quite some time, if ever.

Now: Can you guarantee that the region of Christmas will be able to function as an independent community, without interference by any power, occupying or otherwise, as a result of this liberation resolution?

[Dagguerro]

Can you guarantee that the region of Christmas will be able to function as an independent community, without interference by any power, occupying or otherwise, as a result of this liberation resolution?

That is entirely irrelevant to this resolution. This resolution isn't to guarantee Christmas' ability to "function as an independent community". Its to free to region from your attempt to refound it against the will of the natives.

What said natives choose to do after that is entirely their own affair.

I would also note that its vaguely amusing how this has now devolved into petty points-scoring. Says it all about the supposed "benevolence" of this raid really.

[Damanucus]

Can you guarantee that the region of Christmas will be able to function as an independent community, without interference by any power, occupying or otherwise, as a result of your region's occupation?

No, and we've never claimed that would be the case. We have said all along that we will maintain control of the Founder account. That is by its very definition some interference, so I would be lying if I said there would be none.

However, the region of Christmas will be able to function with a great degree of independence if we refound it -- arguably a greater degree than now, given how vulnerable it is to constant invasion. I should also stress, again, that the natives have expressed no interest in being "an independent community." They've expressed an interest in returning to the status quo, which certainly was not "an independent community." Christmas has neither been independent nor a community for quite some time, if ever.

Now: Can you guarantee that the region of Christmas will be able to function as an independent community, without interference by any power, occupying or otherwise, as a result of this liberation resolution?

Before I answer your question, I'm going to call nonsense on your claim that the region will be able to function with a greater degree of independence if you refind the region. (OOC: Yes, that is a real word; check your dictionaries, ladies and gents.) In reality, one of two situations will occur in this situation:

1. The region is refounded using an existing nation in the region of Asgard. What that means is that Asgard can still recall to who would eventually become the natives of the region on their actions and influence the politics of the region; or
2. The region is refounded using a puppet, which is then left to CTE, which ends up leading back to this again.

Now, to answer your question, short answer is yes. The region itself will make the decisions, the region itself will manage themselves, and, even though we wouldn't want it to end up this way, if they choose to, the region itself will leave itself to cease to exist. They have made it fairly obvious that they do not want to be managed as an annexation of any region; they have stated it here in this debate. If nothing else, I wouldn't be surprised if they were wanting to see the region die because of its inaction. Regardless of the decision, they made it, and they should be given a chance to exercise it of their own free will.

Stephanie Orman
Representative, Nomadic Peoples of Damanucus

[The Great Destruction]

It over guys. Ananke has decided the out come of this one. Its good to be queen.

[The divided]

It over guys. Ananke has decided the out come of this one. Its good to be queen.

I just noticed that one/more of the feeders changed their vote. It still appears to be over, but this is still a rather close vote as liberations go by.

[Suran]

It over guys. Ananke has decided the out come of this one. Its good to be queen.

So annoying how you fendas run the WA. Every liberation always passes and the fendas always win. -__-

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

It over guys. Ananke has decided the out come of this one. Its good to be queen.

So annoying how you fendas run the WA. Every liberation always passes and the fendas always win. -__-

Is GD a fenda?? Pretty sure all Warzone Delegates from the beginning of time are automatically classified as raiders.

[The Great Destruction]

Yes, definitely raider friendly here, but we have some defender allies too. I voted agaist for the record

[East Berliner Peasants]

It over guys. Ananke has decided the out come of this one. Its good to be queen.

So annoying how you fendas run the WA. Every liberation always passes and the fendas always win. -__-

It's official: The SC is the front for the mob known as Defenders.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

So annoying how you fendas run the WA. Every liberation always passes and the fendas always win. -__-

It's official: The SC is the front for the mob known as Defenders.

Mmmm...nope. Plenty of raider WA nations have passed resolutions in the SC. TGD and myself are prime examples.

[Cromarty]

So annoying how you fendas run the WA. Every liberation always passes and the fendas always win. -__-

It's official: The SC is the front for the mob known as Defenders.

Last defender authored resolution to pass: May 31st.
Number of resolutions passed since: 5

Number of Defender-authored resolutions that regard gameplay (as opposed to WA or RP matters) passed this year: 4
Number of resolutions passed this year: 17

Clearly.

Owait, no it isn't.

[The divided]

Lets get back on the topic of this resolution before this turns into a bigger pissing contest.

[Ambroscus Koth]

Unfortunately, that's mostly what the past 23 pages have been. Unless something is done in the remaining day, this terribly written proposal will pass and defenders will have the opportunity to take the region and restore it to it's dead puppet storage ways. C'est la vie.

[Keronika]

Christmas shouldn't be ruled by any one region. After this resolution passes, why not have a treaty between raiders and defenders that guarantees the protection of Christmas. A committee could be established to make Christmas into a great holiday themed region where all nations could visit or live.

[The divided]

Christmas shouldn't be ruled by any one region. After this resolution passes, why not have a treaty between raiders and defenders that guarantees the protection of Christmas. A committee could be established to make Christmas into a great holiday themed region where all nations could visit or live.

Good luck with that.

[United States of Natan]

yes!! 5 hours and we will have a victory!

[Ambroscus Koth]

yes!! 5 hours and we will have a victory!

Why is removing the password to a region you have no association with a victory for you, exactly?

[Great Kingdom of Calomo]

HEREBY Liberates Christmas

Royal act and protocol letters sent from The Constitutional Monarchy of Great Kingdom of Calomo to enforce the resolution in this Assembly.

-Queen Yein I-
The Constitutional Monarchy of Great Kingdom of Calomo