[PASSED] Liberate Christmas

[Cormac Stark]

Unfortunately, it's not your place to decide what the best plan is for the region. The natives can do that. As for defenders, Mahaj has provided answers, if you'd bother to read over his posts.

I would argue that it absolutely is our place. We have put more time and energy into the region over the past three weeks than its "natives," if you can even realistically call them that, have put into it in the past year or more. I've been online at every update for three weeks -- even after the password was imposed -- and several people from Asgard have spent almost every minute of our NS time arguing against this resolution for the past 3 days. Meanwhile, Baubles over there didn't even notice he or she was sitting in The Rejected Realms until four days later. Now, explain to me why Baubles has the right to make these big decisions and we don't.

In my mind, the only actual native left in Christmas was Scrooger Codger -- which is ironic in that defenders would probably dismiss him as a non-native since he once led a raid of the region. Yet he was the only one of the "natives" who really brought any kind of life whatsoever to the region at any point in the past year.

[Shemiki]

Unfortunately, it's not your place to decide what the best plan is for the region. The natives can do that. As for defenders, Mahaj has provided answers, if you'd bother to read over his posts.

I would argue that it absolutely is our place. We have put more time and energy into the region over the past three weeks than its "natives," if you can even realistically call them that, have put into it in the past year or more. I've been online at every update for three weeks -- even after the password was imposed -- and several people from Asgard have spent almost every minute of our NS time arguing against this resolution for the past 3 days. Meanwhile, Baubles over there didn't even notice he or she was sitting in The Rejected Realms until four days later. Now, explain to me why Baubles has the right to make these big decisions and we don't.

In my mind, the only actual native left in Christmas was Scrooger Codger -- which is ironic in that defenders would probably dismiss him as a non-native since he once led a raid of the region. Yet he was the only one of the "natives" who really brought any kind of life whatsoever to the region at any point in the past year.

It isn't your place because you are a foreign occupying power. I wonder when you guys were appointed the police of the world that allowed you to go into any region and refound it just because you saw the natives weren't active? Keep your nose to your own business.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

It isn't your place because you are a foreign occupying power. I wonder when you guys were appointed the police of the world that allowed you to go into any region and refound it just because you saw the natives weren't active? Keep your nose to your own business.

*cough cough the defenders will be be sticking their noses in as well should this pass cough cough*

[Shemiki]

It isn't your place because you are a foreign occupying power. I wonder when you guys were appointed the police of the world that allowed you to go into any region and refound it just because you saw the natives weren't active? Keep your nose to your own business.

*cough cough the defenders will be be sticking their noses in as well should this pass cough cough*

Strange, I don't recall Mahaj telling us that. Read over his posts.

[Ambroscus Koth]

It isn't your place because you are a foreign occupying power. I wonder when you guys were appointed the police of the world that allowed you to go into any region and refound it just because you saw the natives weren't active? Keep your nose to your own business.

*cough cough the defenders will be be sticking their noses in as well should this pass cough cough*

Nah man, WE'RE the evil foreign occupiers. The UDL is the shining light of justice and truth, remember?

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

*cough cough the defenders will be be sticking their noses in as well should this pass cough cough*

Strange, I don't recall Mahaj telling us that. Read over his posts.

You don't think that the UDL storming in and usurping what has been a stable and active force in Asgard counts as sticking their noses in?

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

Nah man, WE'RE the evil foreign occupiers. The UDL is the shining light of justice and truth, remember?

Ding ding ding!

[Shemiki]

The R/D game, people.

[Ambroscus Koth]

Strange, I don't recall Mahaj telling us that. Read over his posts.

You don't think that the UDL storming in and usurping what has been a stable and active force in Asgard counts as sticking their noses in?

Because their motives are more noble. We know this because they said so.

[Cormac Stark]

It isn't your place because you are a foreign occupying power. I wonder when you guys were appointed the police of the world that allowed you to go into any region and refound it just because you saw the natives weren't active? Keep your nose to your own business.

We don't see ourselves as the police of the world. We see ourselves as a sovereign region with the right to expand into regions that lack any form of government whatsoever, for our own legitimate interests and in this case for the interests of the region in question and the broader NS community. The natives would be free to be just as inactive as they have been with Christmas as a colony of Asgard, and they would also be free to be more active.

It's defenders who see themselves as the world police and who refuse to mind their own business. Anyone as concerned about native self-determination as you claim to be should vote against this resolution. It was written by a non-native who belongs to an organization that has appointed itself the world police and whose interference in Christmas is completely illegitimate. They haven't expended any effort on this region except to write a poorly written, inaccurate liberation proposal that includes a spelling mistake -- quality work right there.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

The R/D game, people.

That's the most well thought out argument I've heard in this entire thread!

[Ambroscus Koth]

The R/D game, people.

Did you really just admit that you're not arguing this because of native rights or whatever, but rather because you're a defender?

That's what I got out of it.

[Shemiki]

It isn't your place because you are a foreign occupying power. I wonder when you guys were appointed the police of the world that allowed you to go into any region and refound it just because you saw the natives weren't active? Keep your nose to your own business.

We don't see ourselves as the police of the world. We see ourselves as a sovereign region with the right to expand into regions that lack any form of government whatsoever, for our own legitimate interests and in this case for the interests of the region in question and the broader NS community. The natives would be free to be just as inactive as they have been with Christmas as a colony of Asgard, and they would also be free to be more active.

It's defenders who see themselves as the world police and who refuse to mind their own business. Anyone as concerned about native self-determination as you claim to be should vote against this resolution. It was written by a non-native who belongs to an organization that has appointed itself the world police and whose interference in Christmas is completely illegitimate. They haven't expended any effort on this region except to write a poorly written, inaccurate liberation proposal that includes a spelling mistake -- quality work right there.

They could have done that without your raid. I suppose large regions have the right to invade small regions just because they're smaller and less active?

[Shemiki]

The R/D game, people.

Did you really just admit that you're not arguing this because of native rights or whatever, but rather because you're a defender?

That's what I got out of it.

You mentioned UDL stormed Asgard, right?

[Ambroscus Koth]

Did you really just admit that you're not arguing this because of native rights or whatever, but rather because you're a defender?

That's what I got out of it.

You mentioned UDL stormed Asgard, right?

[Cormac Stark]

They could have done that without your raid. I suppose large regions have the right to invade small regions just because they're smaller and less active?

In a word, yes -- particularly when the region lacks even the most basic form of government, such as a WA Regional Delegate. But yes, absolutely, larger regions have every right to invade founderless regions. If natives refuse to govern their region (i.e., by refounding), then others have every right to decide to govern that region.

Refounding Christmas would have been quite easy for the natives. They didn't do it. We will.

[Bundabunda]

You don't think that the UDL storming in and usurping what has been a stable and active force in Asgard counts as sticking their noses in?

Because their motives are more noble. We know this because they said so.

Kernel of logic.

>People bring activity to a region.
>Must be raiders.

>People want to put inactive "Natives" back into powers.
>Must be righteous defenders who only want peace and justice to a region.

[Zintai]

If they''re all so inactive, how have three of them managed to find their way to a debate that, as non-WA nations, they should have no reason to ever notice?

Just because they don't post on their regional message board often doesn't mean that they're not active nations. Especially since, as both sides have mentioned, the name isn't very relevant for eleven months of the year. We're about as far from the holiday as you can get. Of course the region isn't doing much. What is there to say about Christmas in July?

[Ambroscus Koth]

If they''re all so inactive, how have three of them managed to find their way to a debate that, as non-WA nations, they should have no reason to ever notice?

Just because they don't post on their regional message board often doesn't mean that they're not active nations. Especially since, as both sides have mentioned, the name isn't very relevant for eleven months of the year. We're about as far from the holiday as you can get. Of course the region isn't doing much. What is there to say about Christmas in July?

So what you're saying is that the natives aren't relevant 11 months of the year? Fine by me, tell that to the author of this proposal.

[The Adeptus Astartes of the Emperor]

If they''re all so inactive, how have three of them managed to find their way to a debate that, as non-WA nations, they should have no reason to ever notice?

Just because they don't post on their regional message board often doesn't mean that they're not active nations. Especially since, as both sides have mentioned, the name isn't very relevant for eleven months of the year. We're about as far from the holiday as you can get. Of course the region isn't doing much. What is there to say about Christmas in July?

Just because they might be active off of the RMB is no reason to suspect that they are when their RMB has been dead for four or five months.Just because you can't prove they are inactive doesn't make them active. Do you believe in a Flying Spaghetti Monster too? The latter part of your post is also irrelevant to the actual debate. The name shouldn't have anything to do with the activity of the region.

[Armin Tamzarian]

Christmas is gonna be a battle ground forever after this lol

I have started the region of Xmas for other members of the region who want to have Christmas Spririt with NO DRAMA!!!

[Zintai]

So what you're saying is that the natives aren't relevant 11 months of the year? Fine by me, tell that to the author of this proposal.

That's not what I said at all. I said that there's a pretty good reason for the regional message board of a region called "Christmas" to look dead in July. I never said a word about the natives being irrelevant.

Just because they might be active off of the RMB is no reason to suspect that they are when their RMB has been dead for four or five months.Just because you can't prove they are inactive doesn't make them active. Do you believe in a Flying Spaghetti Monster too? The latter part of your post is also irrelevant to the actual debate. The name shouldn't have anything to do with the activity of the region.

This is also not what I said. I said that they clearly are active, because three of them have posted here. That's activity. And you know very well that the name of the region is relevant to the amount of activity in this case. Whether that "should" be true or not is irrelevant, because in this case, it clearly is true. Besides, the resolution we're voting on already calls attention to the region's "special name." Mentioning the name in the debate over said resolution is fair game.

[Baubles]

Meanwhile, Baubles over there didn't even notice he or she was sitting in The Rejected Realms until four days later. Now, explain to me why Baubles has the right to make these big decisions and we don't.

...As I have already pointed out to you; just because I didn't send you an abusive telegram, or post on an rmb or wade through this cesspit of a thread and post earlier doesn't mean I didn't notice I was sitting in The Rejected Realms. I noticed alright, but I didn't see anything that could help the cause of liberating my home region until you kindly noted this proposal on our world factbook entry.

Anyone as concerned about native self-determination as you claim to be should vote against this resolution. It was written by a non-native who belongs to an organization that has appointed itself the world police and whose interference in Christmas is completely illegitimate.

...umm sorry, but what is it you did again? Oh wait, that's something that has also been said in this thread:

So, what gives you the right to decide what's best for a region without actually consulting the natives? You just jumped in and did what you wanted, without bothering to ask how any of them felt about it. Maybe they would have said you were doing the right thing for the region, or maybe they wouldn't have cared. The point is, you had no way of knowing which was the case before those two natives popped up here to post about it, because you didn't ask first. Native sovereignty is what matters in the end - and not just a theoretical sovereignty that fits your ideological view of NS. You have no moral ground to stand on, here.

Oh, and that goes for Asgard, too.

My apologies for the last time I quoted you Naivetry; I was bored of all the crap being hurled around, so was only skimming people's posts

[Cromarty]

Unfortunately, it's not your place to decide what the best plan is for the region. The natives can do that. As for defenders, Mahaj has provided answers, if you'd bother to read over his posts.

I would argue that it absolutely is our place. We have put more time and energy into the region over the past three weeks than its "natives," if you can even realistically call them that, have put into it in the past year or more. I've been online at every update for three weeks -- even after the password was imposed -- and several people from Asgard have spent almost every minute of our NS time arguing against this resolution for the past 3 days. Meanwhile, Baubles over there didn't even notice he or she was sitting in The Rejected Realms until four days later. Now, explain to me why Baubles has the right to make these big decisions and we don't.

Because Baubles didn't invade the region with a hostile foreign force.

All of this, the liberation, the opposition from defenders and natives alike, could've been avoided had you asked the natives about a refound before moving. You want Christmas because of the name, you want it for a trophy. If you just wanted a winter themed region to make a 'cultural hub', you'd have founded one yourselves.

[Cormac Stark]

I'm completely finished with the philosophical argument that has dominated 22 pages of this thread. We've all made our points, often more than once, and there's no point in making them again.

Neglected during this philosophical discussion have been some technical issues with the resolution itself:

- The liberation resolution states "that the region of Christmas was raided by forces of Asgard, The New Inquisition, and The Land of Kings and Emperors on July 4th, 2012." While TNI and The LKE provided support after update, neither were present at update making this statement false. If the Security Council passes this resolution, it will be enshrining false accusations against two regions into interregional law.

- The liberation resolution states that "the native community in Christmas . . . has been forcibly removed." Again, this is not the case. There are six native nations remaining in the region. While we believe that four of these nations belong to one person, there are at least three natives remaining in the region -- again making this liberation resolution inaccurate.

- The liberation resolution misspells the word "swiftly" as "swifly." While I wouldn't normally quibble over a typographical error, the World Assembly has come to expect a higher quality in its proposals and this resolution does not meet those standards.

While I doubt that these technical points have been brought up in time to sway the vote for this resolution, they would certainly provide some grounds for a repeal if anyone is interested in taking up that project. And of course, for these reasons and for the reasons we've already presented, we encourage anyone and everyone to change their votes. There's still time.