[PASSED] Liberate Christmas

[Cormac Stark]

Answer me this. If you guys are no longer in our region because it has been liberated and that liberation is still in place because we have chosen not to repeal it; then how in the hell can The Greater German Reich password our region?

You've got me there. That made absolutely no sense. I blame the lack of sleep; see, I and several other Asgardians been logging a lot of hours trying to defend your region against the UDL for the past couple of days.

In any event, you're completely wrong about the future of your region. This liberation resolution has put it on the map and, if this resolution passes, you'll be raided much more frequently than you were before. I'm sorry you feel the way that you do but it would be distasteful to bicker with a native, so I've said my peace and I'll go back to bickering with Mahaj & Co. I would simply ask the Security Council to look beyond the wishes of these two natives and try to see what's best for all the natives and for the future of the region as a whole.

[Cromarty]

Answer me this. If you guys are no longer in our region because it has been liberated and that liberation is still in place because we have chosen not to repeal it; then how in the hell can The Greater German Reich password our region?

You've got me there. That made absolutely no sense. I blame the lack of sleep; see, I've been logging a lot of hours trying to defend your region against the UDL for the past couple of days.

In any event, you're completely wrong about the future of your region. This liberation resolution has put it on the map

Because a region named Chrsitmas wasn't on the fucking map already.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

You've got me there. That made absolutely no sense. I blame the lack of sleep; see, I've been logging a lot of hours trying to defend your region against the UDL for the past couple of days.

In any event, you're completely wrong about the future of your region. This liberation resolution has put it on the map

Because a region named Chrsitmas wasn't on the fucking map already.

I didn't know of its existence before this resolution (mainly because I never bothered to search for it, but hey ho).

[Cromarty]

Because a region named Chrsitmas wasn't on the fucking map already.

I didn't know of its existence before this resolution (mainly because I never bothered to search for it, but hey ho).

To be fair, you aren't a 'classical' raider so to speak, so it wouldn't really be on the map for you.

[Bears Armed]

"Asgard running Christmas? That's preposterous... What would be next, Mount Olympus running Ramadan?"
[/slightly-confused IC bear]

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

I did not goade anybody into posting here.

I find it funny that at first the complain is that no native supports it.

Then its that only one native supported it.

Then its that the native was forced to support it.

I tire of this nonsense.

I love this argument.

First you say 'No natives oppose us.'

Then one says 'Uh, actually guys, I don't want this.'

Then you say 'Oh he doesn't matter! Mahaj must've forced him to post!'

Someone, please remind me where I asked for a native to come forward. Please find that for me, as I'm fairly sure it doesn't exist in this thread. I don't ask because I know if you prod the natives enough, as the first post ever by the native in question here was surely prodded to do, they will respond. One native voice does not an entire proposal support. If it's honestly true that the native here posted without any prodding, I'll eat that point. Does it change the argument-not one bit. One native in a region of 2-10 inactive nations before the invasion is not exactly a stable crux to rest the argument of "They natives want it!" on.

I would like to see my previous point addressed as well: what does this one, inactive native lose by joining a refounded region?

EDIT: On a completely random note, look where all this defender/raider garbage has gotten this proposal. The previous Liberation proposal had 4 pages total at the end of voting, while this is already well into 13 pages because defender/raider sniping. /justathought

[Cromarty]

Someone, please remind me where I asked for a native to come forward. Please find that for me, as I'm fairly sure it doesn't exist in this thread. I don't ask because I know if you prod the natives enough, as the first post ever by the native in question here was surely prodded to do, they will respond. One native voice does not an entire proposal support. If it's honestly true that the native here posted without any prodding, I'll eat that point. Does it change the argument-not one bit. One native in a region of 2-10 inactive nations before the invasion is not exactly a stable crux to rest the argument of "They natives want it!" on.

Two natives now.

I would like to see my previous point addressed as well: what does this one, inactive native lose by joining a refounded region?

All the natives lose the sovereignty of their region to a group that most definitely can't be trusted.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

Two natives now.

I thought I made it clear earlier natives voicing support here is of no concern to me, as they were all inactive up to and including this point, and they have nothing to lose by joining a refounded region, which I will address next. We can move on from that line of thought.

All the natives lose the sovereignty of their region to a group that most definitely can't be trusted.

They lose the sovereignty of a region they didn't control in the first place? Another ludicrous argument. If they wanted sovereignty, why didn't they elect a WA Delegate? They can't claim sovereignty on a region they were completely inactive in. That would be like me claiming I have sovereignty in XKI or Lazarus-you can't just idly reside in a region then claim your region got invaded when your inactive was a primary cause of said invasion. If you want sovereignty in a region, it takes more than sitting there answering issues with a Hermit influence.

[Titiwu]

‘Not active enough!’
Raid excuse generator
rationalises.


FOR the liberation. Titiwu

[Jamie Anumia]

Answer me this. If you guys are no longer in our region because it has been liberated and that liberation is still in place because we have chosen not to repeal it; then how in the hell can The Greater German Reich password our region?

Having the liberation in place would still leave your region in danger of being invaded, and even if the the proposal passes, your region will likely not be liberated by defenders.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

[Mahaj]

Answer me this. If you guys are no longer in our region because it has been liberated and that liberation is still in place because we have chosen not to repeal it; then how in the hell can The Greater German Reich password our region?

Having the liberation in place would still leave your region in danger of being invaded, and even if the the proposal passes, your region will likely not be liberated by defenders.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

Except defenders have liberated it before.

Except that stability over liberty is a crap argument.

[Jamie Anumia]

Having the liberation in place would still leave your region in danger of being invaded, and even if the the proposal passes, your region will likely not be liberated by defenders.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

Except defenders have liberated it before.

Except that stability over liberty is a crap argument.

The ambassador from Jamie Anumia raises her eyebrows and shakes her head.
It's a region which the natives don't care about for 11 months of the year. I just don't see why this liberation is necessary.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

[Mahaj]

Except defenders have liberated it before.

Except that stability over liberty is a crap argument.

The ambassador from Jamie Anumia raises her eyebrows and shakes her head.
It's a region which the natives don't care about for 11 months of the year. I just don't see why this liberation is necessary.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

It's a region which Asgard doesn't care about for 11.5 months of the year.

Who's more inactive now?

[Jamie Anumia]

The ambassador from Jamie Anumia raises her eyebrows and shakes her head.
It's a region which the natives don't care about for 11 months of the year. I just don't see why this liberation is necessary.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

It's a region which Asgard doesn't care about for 11.5 months of the year.

Who's more inactive now?

You are now just grasping at straws, you know as well as I do that the natives would be/are just as inactive or even more so than Asgard.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

[Mahaj]

It's a region which Asgard doesn't care about for 11.5 months of the year.

Who's more inactive now?

You are now just grasping at straws, you know as well as I do that the natives would be/are just as inactive or even more so than Asgard.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

No, because Asgard stated their plans to hold things 'around christmastime to celebrate the winter'.

and that the details haven't been finalized. So they really don't know what they're doing.

Doesn't sound like somebody you'd elect to be the head of culture, why should we vote for them now?

[Diasporal]

I think Christmas should enjoy sovereignty.

[Jamie Anumia]

You are now just grasping at straws, you know as well as I do that the natives would be/are just as inactive or even more so than Asgard.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

No, because Asgard stated their plans to hold things 'around christmastime to celebrate the winter'.

and that the details haven't been finalized. So they really don't know what they're doing.

Doesn't sound like somebody you'd elect to be the head of culture, why should we vote for them now?

Basically, it sounds to me like you are just basing your whole proposal on your look of trust for Asgard, I believe they've already said they would allow natives (inactive or otherwise) re-entry to their region.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

[Mahaj]

No, because Asgard stated their plans to hold things 'around christmastime to celebrate the winter'.

and that the details haven't been finalized. So they really don't know what they're doing.

Doesn't sound like somebody you'd elect to be the head of culture, why should we vote for them now?

Basically, it sounds to me like you are just basing your whole proposal on your look of trust for Asgard, I believe they've already said they would allow natives (inactive or otherwise) re-entry to their region.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

Thats what every garden imperialist says, and every one of them turns out to be lying.

Asgard's now admitted that their campaign tg was based in part on something that didn't exist, that they promoted their plans for culture when in reality they don't have any details finalized, they claimed the natives were too inactive to care about the region and then said they'd look to them to provide culture help... with all this in mind, anybody who still trusts Asgard is willfully blind to all this.

[Advakarez]

Evidently, the raiders have the best intentions to build a community.

Against the proposal....as much as my vote counts.

[Cromarty]

No, because Asgard stated their plans to hold things 'around christmastime to celebrate the winter'.

and that the details haven't been finalized. So they really don't know what they're doing.

Doesn't sound like somebody you'd elect to be the head of culture, why should we vote for them now?

Basically, it sounds to me like you are just basing your whole proposal on your look of trust for Asgard, I believe they've already said they would allow natives (inactive or otherwise) re-entry to their region.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

There is a serious credibility issue here.

Asgard based their campaign TG on something that never happened. They then failed to address this mistruth effectively. That makes it a fabrication.;

Asgard were asked what their plan was for Christmas. Their reply? We haven't decided or planned anything because it's summer not winter.

Asgard were asked how they'd make it a 'cultural hub' of NationStates. They couldn't answer.

Asgard are a hostile force in the region, moving in and taking the delegacy by force. There is nothing to indicate they made any effort prior to the operation to even see if the natives of Christmas wanted a refound.

Asgard have shown no indication that they have any idea how they'd make Christmas a more active region than it is. Indeed, with Asgard only focusing on winter festivals, Christmas will be less active than it is now.

Asgard has failed to address any concerns, has failed to effectively address any questions, and are opposed by the natives. Opposing this resolution means you support Asgard making this region an inactive trophy for a hostile force that expelled natives and refounded the region against their will. If this was GGR you'd be for it. Why should it be any different here?

[Jamie Anumia]

Basically, it sounds to me like you are just basing your whole proposal on your look of trust for Asgard, I believe they've already said they would allow natives (inactive or otherwise) re-entry to their region.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

Asgard has failed to address any concerns, has failed to effectively address any questions, and are opposed by the natives. Opposing this resolution means you support Asgard making this region an inactive trophy for a hostile force that expelled natives and refounded the region against their will. If this was GGR you'd be for it. Why should it be any different here?

I don't have a particular objection to Asgard refounding a known likely puppet dump. And yes, you are right, if it was GGR, I'd be for it. But I'm biased. Asgard are not promoting a hateful ideology.

[Calaloo]

While I can empathize with the natives of Christmas who have been displaced, I feel we must carefully examine the motives for liberating Christmas. I am concerned that the World Assembly may by giving undue weight to the liberation of Christmas due to the significance of its name. In fact, the resolution itself contains the line "AWARE that Christmas is a region which many people treasure due to its special name". Giving special consideration to a nation because of the cultural and/or religious significance of its name is unfair and unjust. While it can (and has) been argued (or at least implied) that the invasion and annexation of a nation is reason enough to liberate it, the World Assembly has voted down liberation resolutions before, and so we must draw the conclusion that the consensus of the majority of World Assembly delegates is that invasion and annexation of a nation is not, in and of itself, enough reason for the World Assembly to intervene and liberate a nation. If that is the case, then giving extra weight to this nation's liberation due, even in part, to the cultural and/or religious significance of the name "Christmas" is morally dubious at best. For that reason, on behalf of the people of Calaloo, we cannot vote in favor of this resolution to liberate Christmas at this time.

[Naivetry]

So, what gives you the right to decide what's best for a region without actually consulting the natives? You just jumped in and did what you wanted, without bothering to ask how any of them felt about it.

That was aimed at Mahaj. But it is also exactly what Asgard has done. I wasn't consulted about the Asgard raid...

*coughs*

Oh, and that goes for Asgard, too.

That was, good sir, my entire point. The paragraph applies equally to both. No one gets to say they did things properly here.

I'm already voting for. I just do not appreciate the moralizing from defenders (and I am one) when no one actually talked to the natives before taking action. We were all sitting here deciding what we thought was best for your region until you spoke up, and that's inexcusable no matter which side of the ideological spectrum you land on.

*tips hat* Nice to meet you. Welcome to the SC.

[Emperor Khaotic]

There is a serious credibility issue here.

Asgard based their campaign TG on something that never happened. They then failed to address this mistruth effectively. That makes it a fabrication.;

It is apparent that you seem to only want to draw the conclusion that benefits your end goal. We have addressed the 'mistruth' as a misunderstanding. Your insistance on asking questions and then as they are answered going around and stating your questions haven't be answered brings question to your credibility. There is a vast difference between not answering and not answering to your satisfaction.

Asgard were asked what their plan was for Christmas. Their reply? We haven't decided or planned anything because it's summer not winter.

Asgard were asked how they'd make it a 'cultural hub' of NationStates. They couldn't answer.

You appear, again, to be selectively reading. Your question time and time again has been how we will make it a 'cultural hub'. The cultural hub aspect of the region will be a winter festival and celebrating winter related festivites. That does mean there won't be more to the region or the community. The community will be built by the people who inhabit it. Perhaps your experience with Founders is that they dictate to the people everything that will happen. Fortunately for the people of Asgard, that is not how our Founder does things.

[Shemiki]

Asgard has failed to address any concerns, has failed to effectively address any questions, and are opposed by the natives. Opposing this resolution means you support Asgard making this region an inactive trophy for a hostile force that expelled natives and refounded the region against their will. If this was GGR you'd be for it. Why should it be any different here?

I don't have a particular objection to Asgard refounding a known likely puppet dump. And yes, you are right, if it was GGR, I'd be for it. But I'm biased. Asgard are not promoting a hateful ideology.

Showing bias discredits your arguments
Two natives have spoken now, both FOR the lib. Asgard still plows on with their supposed "refounding." They seem less and less honest each passing post. If they aren't honoring the natives' wishes to get out, how can we know they'll let the natives back in once their "refounding" is done? Heck, how can we be sure they even are refounding?