[PASSED] Liberate Christmas

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

Does anyone still believe that this isn't a raid?

Just curious.

EDIT: Oh, hey, there seem to be a new 820 votes in favor of the liberation.

Well, they knew that was coming.

[United States of Natan]

I believe it is still a raid

[Punk Reloaded]

Someone may have asked this already but has there been a utilitarian debate on this subject?

From a few accounts the natives have been particularly inactive, and it appears that the aggressors which to make the region a hub of activity?

Why should they not be allowed the chance given the state in which they found the region? When does the potential good that could come from an active region outweigh the 'rights' of inactive natives who suddenly become awake when they find a new group looking to do what they have not?

Per usual, a pragmatic question is ignored in order to maintain some type of paper-thin altruistic rah-rah campaign.

One time, it would nice for this body to look beyond the surface.

[Zintai]

Per usual, a pragmatic question is ignored in order to maintain some type of paper-thin altruistic rah-rah campaign.

One time, it would nice for this body to look beyond the surface.

I'd like to propose a question to you in return. Why is it necessary to refound the region to make it more active? It seems to me that if all Asgard wanted to do was make the region active, they could just move in and be active. And even if this liberation passes, nothing is stopping them from moving in and just being active.

[Ambroscus Koth]

Per usual, a pragmatic question is ignored in order to maintain some type of paper-thin altruistic rah-rah campaign.

One time, it would nice for this body to look beyond the surface.

I'd like to propose a question to you in return. Why is it necessary to refound the region to make it more active? It seems to me that if all Asgard wanted to do was make the region active, they could just move in and be active. And even if this liberation passes, nothing is stopping them from moving in and just being active.

The fact that it's founderless means that it can be taken over by someone else, and I personally don't see the point in establishing something anywhere that can just be taken away.

[Shemiki]

Ananke II has voted FOR, giving the FOR side 820 votes. I'm above gloating, so I won't.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

Ananke II has voted FOR, giving the FOR side 820 votes. I'm above gloating, so I won't.

I don't want to post, but I will. Not like that's a huge surprise or anything (Ananke, that is).

[Shemiki]

No, it isn't.

[Shemiki]

well, it looks like as long as we can stay ahead for the rest of the voting for it, we will win and Christmas will finally be free!

Not necessarily. When Asgard raided the region and annexed it as one of colonies, it put a password lock on the region and ejected the natives, so the natives need a password to come back. This is for their supposed "refounding." All a liberation does is remove the password lock and make the WA Delegate of that region, and any future Delegates, unable to place a password on the region ever again. It's up to defenders and former natives to wrestle control from Asgard after that. If or once that's done, the Resolution could be repealed, enabling the natives to password lock the region so no one raids again. Of course this would make recruiting difficult, so they may not and leave to door open, which could invite back raiders.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

well, it looks like as long as we can stay ahead for the rest of the voting for it, we will win and Christmas will finally be free!

Not necessarily. When Asgard raided the region and annexed it as one of colonies, it put a password lock on the region and ejected the natives, so the natives need a password to come back. This is for their supposed "refounding." All a liberation does is remove the password lock and make the WA Delegate of that region, and any future Delegates, unable to place a password on the region ever again. It's up to defenders and former natives to wrestle control from Asgard after that. If or once that's done, the Resolution could be repealed, enabling the natives to password lock the region so no one raids again. Of course this would make recruiting difficult, so they may not and leave to door open, which could invite back raiders.

Not to mention that Liberations often have unintended consequences. What was it a while a back, something Paradise region? They had a Liberation that they wanted removed, and it got removed, at which point they were summarily raided and put under lockdown, again.

[Ambroscus Koth]

This is for their supposed "refounding."

We intend to refound, which is part of the reason why Mahaj and Unibot are so mad at us. Can the defenders please figure out a solid argument?

[Shemiki]

Not necessarily. When Asgard raided the region and annexed it as one of colonies, it put a password lock on the region and ejected the natives, so the natives need a password to come back. This is for their supposed "refounding." All a liberation does is remove the password lock and make the WA Delegate of that region, and any future Delegates, unable to place a password on the region ever again. It's up to defenders and former natives to wrestle control from Asgard after that. If or once that's done, the Resolution could be repealed, enabling the natives to password lock the region so no one raids again. Of course this would make recruiting difficult, so they may not and leave to door open, which could invite back raiders.

Not to mention that Liberations often have unintended consequences. What was it a while a back, something Paradise region? They had a Liberation that they wanted removed, and it got removed, at which point they were summarily raided and put under lockdown, again.

*shrugs* that's what they wanted, so it's their problem.

[Shemiki]

This is for their supposed "refounding."

We intend to refound, which is part of the reason why Mahaj and Unibot are so mad at us. Can the defenders please figure out a solid argument?

Yeah, well, we don't believe you. We apologize.

[Cormac Stark]

It's up to defenders and former natives to wrestle control from Asgard after that. If or once that's done, the Resolution could be repealed, enabling the natives to password lock the region so no one raids again. Of course this would make recruiting difficult, so they may not and leave to door open, which could invite back raiders.

So basically it's up to defenders. I don't think natives who couldn't be bothered to "wrestle control" from thin air when they had no WA Regional Delegate are going to bother trying to "wrestle control" from us. Thus, what you will have in Christmas is an invading army attempting to oust the sovereign colonial government while the natives answer issues -- which they could have done, by the way, in a refounded Christmas.

In regard to making recruiting difficult, you know what makes recruiting difficult? Being a founderless puppet dump. I don't know what y'all are smoking that makes you think natives who didn't even post on the RMB for five months are ever going to send a recruitment TG or "wrestle control" from a raider Delegate, but it must be some great stuff so pass it over this way.

Finally, if we didn't intend to refound the region, why in the world would we impose a password and fight a liberation resolution for days? Someone bring Mahaj back, at least he made some sense.

[Unibot II]

Not necessarily. When Asgard raided the region and annexed it as one of colonies, it put a password lock on the region and ejected the natives, so the natives need a password to come back. This is for their supposed "refounding." All a liberation does is remove the password lock and make the WA Delegate of that region, and any future Delegates, unable to place a password on the region ever again. It's up to defenders and former natives to wrestle control from Asgard after that. If or once that's done, the Resolution could be repealed, enabling the natives to password lock the region so no one raids again. Of course this would make recruiting difficult, so they may not and leave to door open, which could invite back raiders.

Not to mention that Liberations often have unintended consequences. What was it a while a back, something Paradise region? They had a Liberation that they wanted removed, and it got removed, at which point they were summarily raided and put under lockdown, again.

That's not liberations with unintended consequences, it's liberation repeals .. you know, the things you like to write, even when everyone else says it isn't necessary and it works against the natives and stuff. >_>

[Cormac Stark]

By the way, while we're obsessed with the topic of natives a question to our illustrious defender friends: Do you consider Warzone Codger, AKA Scrooger Codger, to be a native of Christmas? Why or why not?

[Shemiki]

It's up to defenders and former natives to wrestle control from Asgard after that. If or once that's done, the Resolution could be repealed, enabling the natives to password lock the region so no one raids again. Of course this would make recruiting difficult, so they may not and leave to door open, which could invite back raiders.

So basically it's up to defenders. I don't think natives who couldn't be bothered to "wrestle control" from thin air when they had no WA Regional Delegate are going to bother trying to "wrestle control" from us. Thus, what you will have in Christmas is an invading army attempting to oust the sovereign colonial government while the natives answer issues -- which they could have done, by the way, in a refounded Christmas.

Three natives have stated they want the lib to pass. I'm guessing they want to come back to Christmas and take control of it. Why else would they fight so hard for the lib to pass?

In regard to making recruiting difficult, you know what makes recruiting difficult? Being a founderless puppet dump. I don't know what y'all are smoking that makes you think natives who didn't even post on the RMB for five months are ever going to send a recruitment TG or "wrestle control" from a raider Delegate, but it must be some great stuff so pass it over this way.

See above point.

Finally, if we didn't intend to refound the region, why in the world would we impose a password and fight a liberation resolution for days? Someone bring Mahaj back, at least he made some sense.

So you can keep the region as one of your colonies?

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

That's not liberations with unintended consequences, it's liberation repeals .. you know, the things you like to write, even when everyone else says it isn't necessary and it works against the natives and stuff. >_>

What, you mean that one time that's worked out fine so far and had native support (isn't that the takes-the-cake argument for you?)?

[Shemiki]

By the way, while we're obsessed with the topic of natives a question to our illustrious defender friends: Do you consider Warzone Codger, AKA Scrooger Codger, to be a native of Christmas? Why or why not?

No, as this is not his main nation. Of course, with the four nations Koth told us were puppets, this makes five puppets (unless Koth included this nation on his list, I didn't check before posting). There are five real nations now if there are no more puppets. 3 for the lib is 60%. That passes Skyrim's 50% benchmark, I believe.

[Shemiki]

Good thing your benchmarks don't matter!

*notes the liberation is still failing*

It's winning now.

[Cormac Stark]

Three natives have stated they want the lib to pass. I'm guessing they want to come back to Christmas and take control of it. Why else would they fight so hard for the lib to pass?

Well, that's just it: We don't know. I got the impression that the natives wanted us to go away so they could sit in their founderless region and answer issues. The problem is that nobody asked them what they were going to do about the future of their region, and nobody asked the UDL what they're going to do about the future of the region either. Answers to that question were only demanded from us, and when we tried to answer our answers were deemed inadequate in comparison to the total absence of answers to the very same question by natives or defenders.

So you can keep the region as one of your colonies?

We've said again and again that the region will be one of our colonies, but not just a mere trophy -- we want to breathe new life into it. Regardless, refounding would be required either way. Do you even know what refounding means? Because you're demonstrating an extreme lack of knowledge of the topic you're discussing. I blame the educational system in 10000 Islands. What are they teaching kids these days?

[Shemiki]

Three natives have stated they want the lib to pass. I'm guessing they want to come back to Christmas and take control of it. Why else would they fight so hard for the lib to pass?

Well, that's just it: We don't know. I got the impression that the natives wanted us to go away so they could sit in their founderless region and answer issues. The problem is that nobody asked them what they were going to do about the future of their region, and nobody asked the UDL what they're going to do about the future of the region either. Answers to that question were only demanded from us, and when we tried to answer our answers were deemed inadequate in comparison to the total absence of answers to the very same question by natives or defenders.

Unfortunately, it's not your place to decide what the best plan is for the region. The natives can do that. As for defenders, Mahaj has provided answers, if you'd bother to read over his posts.

So you can keep the region as one of your colonies?

We've said again and again that the region will be one of our colonies, but not just a mere trophy -- we want to breathe new life into it. Regardless, refounding would be required either way. Do you even know what refounding means? Because you're demonstrating an extreme lack of knowledge of the topic you're discussing. I blame the educational system in 10000 Islands. What are they teaching kids these days?

Unfortunately, we are here to debate a Liberation Resolution, not the education system in the 10000 Islands.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

<snip>

I think they call a "side step" in legal terminology.

[Shemiki]

<snip>

I think they call a "side step" in legal terminology.

I did not type that. If you are going to quote me, don't sink so low to make it look like I said things I didn't say.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

I think they call a "side step" in legal terminology.

I did not type that. If you are going to quote me, don't sink so low to make it look like I said things I didn't say.

...you avoided answering his question was the point.