[PASSED] Liberate Christmas

[Bundabunda]

*cough cough Osiris* No wait, that was TITO.

TITO have no influence in Osiris.
We have defended it though

I am certain it was stated earlier that the founder nation would NOT be shared with natives. There was no compromise there from the invaders that took the region and now hold it and are ejecting Natives.

So in effect the only choice that the natives will have, besides the 2 that did speak out, is a founderless region with possible defender intervention for some time and a potential password lock?

I'm no Christian, but even I know that putting a lock on Christmas would look bad.

[Sichuan Pepper]

Well the current lock on the region does look bad and this resolution will remove it.

EDIT: Typo police pulled me over.

[Bundabunda]

Well the current lock on the region does look bad and this repeal will remove it.

...This liberation will remove the password, thus opening the gates for hordes and hordes of raiders. And the only reason Asgard has put a lock down on the region is because the region can grow again, rather than let it go stagnant under defender protectionism. As stated already, Asgard will probably refound the region anyway and give it a new founder.Having a founder in place will ensure that it doesn't get raided. Giving over the account for the founder to a native will ensure that "Christmas" stays in Christmas' hands. You'd rather a region get invaded over and over again, just so that you guys can have "The moral high ground" whenever TBR or TBH comes a knockin' on the door. That is your rationale for not agreeing to compromise.

EDIT: Put "Repeal" in place of "Liberation".

[United States of Natan]

I am jewish yet even I know that a cultural region like the Christmas region should not be taken over.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

TITO have no influence in Osiris.
We have defended it though

I am certain it was stated earlier that the founder nation would NOT be shared with natives. There was no compromise there from the invaders that took the region and now hold it and are ejecting Natives.

Oh, they may not anymore. But that flash raid when the region popped up certainly had them in power.

[Bundabunda]

I am jewish yet even I know that a cultural region like the Christmas region should not be taken over.

That's fine. I'm Muslim and I believe that a region called "Christmas" shouldn't be taken over either. But I'll still stand by what I've said:
The natives can't protect themselves from an attack. If Asgard agrees to hand over the founder password (When it is refounded) we can all get along.

[Fynnbays]

I am jewish yet even I know that a cultural region like the Christmas region should not be taken over.

That's fine. I'm Muslim and I believe that a region called "Christmas" shouldn't be taken over either. But I'll still stand by what I've said:
The natives can't protect themselves from an attack. If Asgard agrees to hand over the founder password (When it is refounded) we can all get along.

I'd hate Ramadan at this time of year. Sun all day long.
If you're in Britain that is.

[Sedgistan]

I'd hate Ramadan at this time of year. Sun all day long.
If you're in Britain that is.

Please don't threadjack.

[Fynnbays]

Ooops, mind=slipped for a sec, my bad.

[Sichuan Pepper]

Asgard is more than willing to help natives establish a regional government and to allow it to function with relative autonomy. But we will not be handing over the password to the Founder account.

[Bundabunda]

Asgard is more than willing to help natives establish a regional government and to allow it to function with relative autonomy. But we will not be handing over the password to the Founder account.

Granted. Even in that scenario, Asgard cherishes the Christmas name to a point where they're willing to give it protection. Protection that this liberation just can't.

[Sichuan Pepper]

The difference being they could have moved nations into the region to talk to natives. They could have offered the region protection. The did not do either of those things.
They chose to invade the region and lock it down, then eject natives. They have chosen to claim the region as theirs and are going to refound so they have ownership. There is absolutely no concern for the natives.

[Bundabunda]

The difference being they could have moved nations into the region to talk to natives. They could have offered the region protection. The did not do either of those things.
They chose to invade the region and lock it down, then eject natives. They have chosen to claim the region as theirs and are going to refound so they have ownership. There is absolutely no concern for the natives.

You're implying that a founderless region is better suited to use on the clock protection from a "Maybe we're reliable" force rather than given a founder, which will prevent all raids in the future?

And also, by "Talk to the natives" you mean the 2 active ones who've made no effort at all to try and bring the region out of inactivity? Those 2?
What kind of "Talk" would you have preferred? I think I might have a clue.
"We're from Asgard. Puppets will be sent in shortly to make this region look like it's thriving."

[Shemiki]

OK, lets review: Asgard invades, claiming to refound Christmas, and starts ejecting natives. Everyone is saying what Asgard is doing is right and is what's best for the region. But wait: the NATIVES have come saying they don't want Asgard. Everyone else says they know what's best for the region. Excuse me, but the natives know what is best for the region above anyone else. Now that they have spoken, I fail to see why Asgard continuing with their raid-called-refound in Christmas. I just don't.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

OK, lets review: Asgard invades, claiming to refound Christmas, and starts ejecting natives. Everyone is saying what Asgard is doing is right and is what's best for the region. But wait: the NATIVES have come saying they don't want Asgard. Everyone else says they know what's best for the region. Excuse me, but the natives know what is best for the region above anyone else. Now that they have spoken, I fail to see why Asgard continuing with their raid-called-refound in Christmas. I just don't.

I still fail to to see what harm all these inactive natives will come upon by joining a refounded region-one with a founder for protection, at that. Looks like everyone is a bit unhappy with the amount of information floating around here. Two natives ≠ the entire regional opinion. If there was a massive outcry from this puppet dump, then you might have an argument there. As is, less that 1/5 of the "natives" of this inactive hole in the wall have come forward. Supporting your entire argument on that fact is asinine.

[Bundabunda]

^This.

The two natives, as already stated, can move to the refounded Christmas when it is refounded.

[Shemiki]

Well, lets see here...in a representative democracy, one person can speak for thousands of people. So 20% of the natives is a lot, and they have both voted FOR. None have spoken out because some may assume its just another raid. You've met opposition and no support from the natives, either get out or declare your malicious intent for the region.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

Well, lets see here...in a representative democracy, one person can speak for thousands of people. So 20% of the natives is a lot, and they have both voted FOR. None have spoken out because some may assume its just another raid. You've met opposition and no support from the natives, either get out or declare your malicious intent for the region.

OOC: Since when is the entirety of NSG classified as representative democracy?

You presume far too much. If you really want to argue percentages, then the other 80% of the natives are either A) uncaring about a refounding, which is what is most likely seeing as how they are inactive puppets or B) actively in support of a refounding. Which way would you like to assume?

[Shemiki]

I was using the representative democracy as an example. And if there are so many puppets, 20% of the natives may have easily become 80%. You can't assume that the other nations don't care or support a refound because they haven't spoken out. EXAMPLE: When a voter doesn't vote, you don't count his vote, even if only 20% of the voting population turned up at the polls. Right now, the natives stand against a refound. Get out, or Asgard's "refound" is essentially a raid.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

I was using the representative democracy as an example. And if there are so many puppets, 20% of the natives may have easily become 80%.

...they are all different nations' puppets; they aren't run by the same administration. Ergo, 20% ≠ 80%. I never thought I would actually have to spell that out in my life.

You can't assume that the other nations don't care or support a refound because they haven't spoken out. EXAMPLE: When a voter doesn't vote, you don't count his vote, even if only 20% of the voting population turned up at the polls. Right now, the natives stand against a refound. Get out, or Asgard's "refound" is essentially a raid.

Is that what we're arguing? I was unaware. It's most definitely a raid. However, it is a raid for the long-term betterment of the region. Once again, you assume the two natives that have said anything speak for the entire region.

[Bundabunda]

I was using the representative democracy as an example. And if there are so many puppets, 20% of the natives may have easily become 80%. You can't assume that the other nations don't care or support a refound because they haven't spoken out. EXAMPLE: When a voter doesn't vote, you don't count his vote, even if only 20% of the voting population turned up at the polls. Right now, the natives stand against a refound. Get out, or Asgard's "refound" is essentially a raid.

Dreadfully wrong.
If there's only 20% of voter turnout and it's been about a week since the "Raid", it can be assumed that the natives do not care about the future of their region. Obviously, Asgard cares about the region enough to invite the natives back in.

And since when is a WA nation's puppet allowed to vote?

[Dagguerro]

This is absurd. And honestly all this stuff about "doing the right thing" seems like unnecessary point-scoring to me.

You may think you know what is best for the natives of the region? Fine, thats your opinion and if they want your help they'll ask for it. By all means try and persuade them to support your plan. But until that happens I'm supporting this liberate. Regardless of whether or not this liberate is good for the natives the only two to speak out about it have said they'd prefer it to having Asgard take over.

Case closed in my mind. You can argue all you like about whether its in their best interests and what is best for the region but ultimately forcing things on people in their best interests is still forcing it on them.

Edit:

it can be assumed that the natives do not care about the future of their region.

For the record, the region gets invaded a lot. Many natives may well be assuming its just another standard read and not bother reading their telegrams.

[Shemiki]

I was using the representative democracy as an example. And if there are so many puppets, 20% of the natives may have easily become 80%.

...they are all different nations' puppets; they aren't run by the same administration. Ergo, 20% ≠ 80%. I never thought I would actually have to spell that out in my life.

Can you provide evidence for this? I was just speculating, you're making a statement.

You can't assume that the other nations don't care or support a refound because they haven't spoken out. EXAMPLE: When a voter doesn't vote, you don't count his vote, even if only 20% of the voting population turned up at the polls. Right now, the natives stand against a refound. Get out, or Asgard's "refound" is essentially a raid.

Is that what we're arguing? I was unaware. It's most definitely a raid. However, it is a raid for the long-term betterment of the region. Once again, you assume the two natives that have said anything speak for the entire region.

Considering no other natives have spoken out, yes, these two speak for the entire region. The rest we don't know the opinion of, so we can't pretend to know. If the natives oppose it, it is a hostile raid, no matter how good your intentions are.

[Mahaj]

I am jewish yet even I know that a cultural region like the Christmas region should not be taken over.

That's fine. I'm Muslim and I believe that a region called "Christmas" shouldn't be taken over either. But I'll still stand by what I've said:
The natives can't protect themselves from an attack. If Asgard agrees to hand over the founder password (When it is refounded) we can all get along.

They haven't agreed. They've stated they have no intention of giving it up.

OK, lets review: Asgard invades, claiming to refound Christmas, and starts ejecting natives. Everyone is saying what Asgard is doing is right and is what's best for the region. But wait: the NATIVES have come saying they don't want Asgard. Everyone else says they know what's best for the region. Excuse me, but the natives know what is best for the region above anyone else. Now that they have spoken, I fail to see why Asgard continuing with their raid-called-refound in Christmas. I just don't.

I still fail to to see what harm all these inactive natives will come upon by joining a refounded region-one with a founder for protection, at that. Looks like everyone is a bit unhappy with the amount of information floating around here. Two natives ≠ the entire regional opinion. If there was a massive outcry from this puppet dump, then you might have an argument there. As is, less that 1/5 of the "natives" of this inactive hole in the wall have come forward. Supporting your entire argument on that fact is asinine.

Argument 1. No natives have supported.
Argument 2. Only one native supported.
Argument 3. Only two natives supported.

Please stop making this argument.

The difference being they could have moved nations into the region to talk to natives. They could have offered the region protection. The did not do either of those things.
They chose to invade the region and lock it down, then eject natives. They have chosen to claim the region as theirs and are going to refound so they have ownership. There is absolutely no concern for the natives.

You're implying that a founderless region is better suited to use on the clock protection from a "Maybe we're reliable" force rather than given a founder, which will prevent all raids in the future?

They're going to be given a founder by people that like destroying things.

And also, by "Talk to the natives" you mean the 2 active ones who've made no effort at all to try and bring the region out of inactivity? Those 2?

Those two that actually expressed an opinion? yes, those two.

Granted. Even in that scenario, Asgard cherishes the Christmas name to a point where they're willing to give it protection. Protection that this liberation just can't.

They're not giving it protection, they're destroying it and building a winter home.

Well the current lock on the region does look bad and this repeal will remove it.

...This liberation will remove the password, thus opening the gates for hordes and hordes of raiders. And the only reason Asgard has put a lock down on the region is because the region can grow again, rather than let it go stagnant under defender protectionism. As stated already, Asgard will probably refound the region anyway and give it a new founder.Having a founder in place will ensure that it doesn't get raided. Giving over the account for the founder to a native will ensure that "Christmas" stays in Christmas' hands. You'd rather a region get invaded over and over again, just so that you guys can have "The moral high ground" whenever TBR or TBH comes a knockin' on the door. That is your rationale for not agreeing to compromise.

EDIT: Put "Repeal" in place of "Liberation".

Your naïvety is funny.

Let's be realistic: there isn't going to be a deal between Mahaj/UDL and the evil, baby-eating raiders that are Asgard. Plain and simple. BUt, if you really want to continue with that train of thought, go for it.

I'm still failing to see how a UDL occupation/Liberation (which would surely take place if this passes) is any better than what Asgard is currently doing.

Because the UDL plan isn't "lets hostilely refound this and build a culture in it... we admit we've never done this before and we don't have details finalized because we really don't know what we're doing but oh god please god oh god please trust us that our intentions are noble just ignore all our raids and griefs and the fact that only griefers supported us oh god please god no no no please you must trust us"

That's why. But I expect that comment from you, so w/e.

I'm inclined to agree with you.
If and when Christmas is refounded, Asgard should hand the password over to one of the two natives who oppose the "Occupation". But not to cede the region. Christmas can't defend itself adaquetly enough without:

A. Going to Asgard for help if it ever gets raided again. (Under the conditions I'd want, the natives wouldn't have to go to Asgard because they'd have the password. )
B. Constantly go back to UDL/Defender organizations for assistance under the liberation. That's if there is anyone active enough to maintain relations.

This I'm definitely inclined to agree with.

Its a good idea... which is why it won't happen:

wrote: But we will not be handing over the password to the Founder account.

[Bundabunda]

This is absurd. And honestly all this stuff about "doing the right thing" seems like unnecessary point-scoring to me.

You may think you know what is best for the natives of the region? Fine, thats your opinion and if they want your help they'll ask for it. By all means try and persuade them to support your plan. But until that happens I'm supporting this liberate. Regardless of whether or not this liberate is good for the natives the only two to speak out about it have said they'd prefer it to having Asgard take over.

Case closed in my mind. You can argue all you like about whether its in their best interests and what is best for the region but ultimately forcing things on people in their best interests is still forcing it on them.

Edit:

it can be assumed that the natives do not care about the future of their region.

For the record, the region gets invaded a lot. Many natives may well be assuming its just another standard read and not bother reading their telegrams.

Right. Just like how the person who authored this proposal is a well known defender and if the region gets "Liberated", the 2 natives will have only defender organizations to lie back on or be subject to numerous invasions at any given point, without help or support from the people who supported the liberation in the first place.

So case in point, this liberation I can assure you, will turn into protectionism.

Because the UDL plan isn't "lets hostilely refound this and build a culture in it... we admit we've never done this before and we don't have details finalized because we really don't know what we're doing but oh god please god oh god please trust us that our intentions are noble just ignore all our raids and griefs and the fact that only griefers supported us oh god please god no no no please you must trust us"

Anybody has yet to see what the UDL's future "Plans" are for this region. And doesn't that defeat the point, if UDL has a plan, which would be condescending enough to the natives, who "Probably need babysitting because they themselves can't plan."