[PASSED] Liberate Christmas

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

Um.

Is there a refound? check.

Does a native oppose? check.

that makes it a hostile refound.

So what, every inactive region you can coerce a plea of "HELP! Save us!" out of is now worth an SC Liberation? That's inane. It's a puppet dump, and an inactive one at that. A refound hurts no one. Not like there's any community there to destroy.

[The Great Destruction]

Look, there is nothing sacred about a region that just happens to be called Christmas. Asgardians may be refounding it. It will no longer be founderless and some Asgaudian will have control. So what. I am sure the region will be open to all and that asgaurd will merely treat it as a public park, just with a dedication to themselves. Either way I guarantee they don't hold it through Christmas.

[Mahaj]

Um.

Is there a refound? check.

Does a native oppose? check.

that makes it a hostile refound.

So what, every inactive region you can coerce a plea of "HELP! Save us!" out of is now worth an SC Liberation? That's inane. It's a puppet dump, and an inactive one at that. A refound hurts no one. Not like there's any community there to destroy.

Any region in need of help is worthy. Yes.

[SunRawr]

So what, every inactive region you can coerce a plea of "HELP! Save us!" out of is now worth an SC Liberation? That's inane. It's a puppet dump, and an inactive one at that. A refound hurts no one. Not like there's any community there to destroy.

Any region in need of help is worthy. Yes.

If I were to disappear and Rawr Puppets was raided by Asgard, and they intended to refound it, you would attempt a liberation? Note that I am not the only person there. By your definition, I think Jamie is also a native.

[Kleinekatzen]

why dont you simply restart the government, not refound the region

I've explained this several times now. Refounding the region basically is restarting the government after making it more secure, providing the region with a founder. Starting a new government in a founderless region is very dangerous.

Oh I disagree with this. As a WA Delegate of a region without a founder I can say it is only Dangerous if raiders take an interest & the WA delegate isn't very active. Otherwise a region can run quite nicely without a founder, therefore the argument that this region (Christmas) needs to be refounded is suspect & flawed.

As such I have voted FOR this liberation.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

Any region in need of help is worthy. Yes.

I'll remember that the next time a GGR puppet dump is raided by Antifa. It's a silly premise that the SC should fling out Liberations so willy-nilly. This is a completely inactive region that will have new life given to it by an active community. What, exactly, does the one native that Mahaj goaded into posting here lose by joining a refounded region?

[Cormac Stark]

Oh I disagree with this. As a WA Delegate of a region without a founder I can say it is only Dangerous if raiders take an interest & the WA delegate isn't very active. Otherwise a region can run quite nicely without a founder, therefore the argument that this region (Christmas) needs to be refounded is suspect & flawed.

As such I have voted FOR this liberation.

While a region can be secure without a Founder, it's much more difficult -- which is why defenders often assist natives in refounding. Moreover, this region cannot be secure without being refounded because none of the extremely inactive natives even have WA nations in the region. There was no WA Regional Delegate when we invaded.

Bottom line: The natives have been inactive, there has been no "native community" (there wasn't a post on the RMB for five months prior to our invasion), there were no WA nations in the region and no WA Regional Delegate. "Liberating" this region means sentencing it to a bleak future that will probably conclude in refounding by a region or organization, like The Greater German Reich, with far less noble intentions than our own.

[Mahaj]

Any region in need of help is worthy. Yes.

I'll remember that the next time a GGR puppet dump is raided by Antifa. It's a silly premise that the SC should fling out Liberations so willy-nilly. This is a completely inactive region that will have new life given to it by an active community. What, exactly, does the one native that Mahaj goaded into posting here lose by joining a refounded region?

I did not goade anybody into posting here.

I find it funny that at first the complain is that no native supports it.

Then its that only one native supported it.

Then its that the native was forced to support it.

I tire of this nonsense.

[Amtara]

opposed

[Slagkattunger]

I always thought Christmas was just occupied with puppets, and that there'd never been any community there. It does seem silly to argue that the invasion and re-founding is okay because there's no community there, and then also claim that re-founding will allow the community to be secure. If there's no community, its security is irrelevant.

That said, I'd probably support this, simply because re-founding will deny us the chance to see which raiders are dedicated/obsessed enough to take part in the annual Christmas Eve raid. EDIT: Plus which defenders are crazy enough to liberate the next day...

I have to say this is the best reason for a liberation if any. I will be suggesting to our WA delegate to vote for it.

[Jamie Anumia]

Any region in need of help is worthy. Yes.

If I were to disappear and Rawr Puppets was raided by Asgard, and they intended to refound it, you would attempt a liberation? Note that I am not the only person there. By your definition, I think Jamie is also a native.

The ambassador from Jamie Anumia would like to ask the ambassador from Mahaj to respond to this point.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

[The divided]

I'll remember that the next time a GGR puppet dump is raided by Antifa. It's a silly premise that the SC should fling out Liberations so willy-nilly. This is a completely inactive region that will have new life given to it by an active community. What, exactly, does the one native that Mahaj goaded into posting here lose by joining a refounded region?

I did not goade anybody into posting here.

I find it funny that at first the complain is that no native supports it.

Then its that only one native supported it.

Then its that the native was forced to support it.

I tire of this nonsense.

So, will you support a liberation of a GGR puppet dump when it is raided by Antifa?

[Mahaj]

If I were to disappear and Rawr Puppets was raided by Asgard, and they intended to refound it, you would attempt a liberation? Note that I am not the only person there. By your definition, I think Jamie is also a native.

The ambassador from Jamie Anumia would like to ask the ambassador from Mahaj to respond to this point.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

Would you want a liberation?

I did not goade anybody into posting here.

I find it funny that at first the complain is that no native supports it.

Then its that only one native supported it.

Then its that the native was forced to support it.

I tire of this nonsense.

So, will you support a liberation of a GGR puppet dump when it is raided by Antifa?

I doubt they would want a liberation.

[Ambroscus Koth]

I doubt they would want a liberation.

What if they did?

[SunRawr]

Would you want a liberation?

And if he did?

But I doubt you would go through with it, because it doesn't have the word "Christmas" in it to make it a fluffy, seemingly easy to pass proposal.

[Pandemicia]

I always thought Christmas was just occupied with puppets, and that there'd never been any community there. It does seem silly to argue that the invasion and re-founding is okay because there's no community there, and then also claim that re-founding will allow the community to be secure. If there's no community, its security is irrelevant.

That said, I'd probably support this, simply because re-founding will deny us the chance to see which raiders are dedicated/obsessed enough to take part in the annual Christmas Eve raid. EDIT: Plus which defenders are crazy enough to liberate the next day...

Best reason to support this Liberation that i've found in this thread. Sedge says it all

I also sense this is turning into a, "bash Mahaj" thread. Assumptions and irrelevant opinions/info are amuck.

[SunRawr]

Assumptions and irrelevant opinions/info are amuck.

Our questions are directly related to one of his key reasons why people should support this fluff.

[Naivetry]

So, what gives you the right to decide what's best for a region without actually consulting the natives? You just jumped in and did what you wanted, without bothering to ask how any of them felt about it. Maybe they would have said you were doing the right thing for the region, or maybe they wouldn't have cared. The point is, you had no way of knowing which was the case before those two natives popped up here to post about it, because you didn't ask first. Native sovereignty is what matters in the end - and not just a theoretical sovereignty that fits your ideological view of NS. You have no moral ground to stand on, here.

Oh, and that goes for Asgard, too.

Just making a point, kids... carry on. Anyone want cookies?

[Meritocratic States]

The Meritocratic States Government has finished its internal debate regarding this matter and concludes that we are ABSTAINING from voting. Our government fears the potential consequences of our vote and we are unwilling to bear it.

We wash our hands clean from this vote.

-Stanley Iavarone, SC Representative
Meritocratic States delegation to the World Assembly

[Cromarty]

Why should one native represent a whole region?
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

Because he's the one native who's spoken up?

[Cromarty]

This is a completely inactive region that will have new life given to it by an active community.

Will it? Or will it be inactive for 11 and a half months and used as a puppet dump and then comes alive once a year as Asgard's winter retreat?

What, exactly, does the one native that Mahaj goaded into posting here lose by joining a refounded region?

I love this argument.

First you say 'No natives oppose us.'

Then one says 'Uh, actually guys, I don't want this.'

Then you say 'Oh he doesn't matter! Mahaj must've forced him to post!'

[Baubles]

That's unfortunate but unsurprising, although Lebuckte is the only native who has spoken out against refounding in this thread so I'm afraid I'm not going to concede that there is more than one native opposed to refounding until they say so publicly. I certainly have not heard from any other native that they are opposed to our refounding plan

Well then you are in luck...

You yourself forcibly ejected me from my home region of.... Christmas, four days ago. And as I'm currently locked out of my HOME region with no way of getting back in, I have no option but to support this 'liberation'. So this is me, telling you that I am opposed to your refounding plan.

That said, it wouldn't be surprising if natives are opposed to refounding given the smear campaign that has been conducted against us by this proposal's author and his friends in the UDL over the past few days.

I'm not sure what smear campaign this is? The only person who has contacted me was yourself; first to tell me Christmas had been raided then to tell me that we were to become part of Asgard.

We have assured the natives of Christmas that we are only interested in providing security and building up the community and culture of the region [...]

I can assure you that I was not assured that you were only interested in providing us with security. You first wanted to talk to me about the future of Christmas, then just five days later it would appear that you have decided what the future of Christmas should be...a colony of Asgard. I know I didn't ask to become a colony... even if you could provide us with security

So, what gives you the right to decide what's best for a region without actually consulting the natives? You just jumped in and did what you wanted, without bothering to ask how any of them felt about it.

That was aimed at Mahaj. But it is also exactly what Asgard has done. I wasn't consulted about the Asgard raid...so what right do they have to tell us how to control our region? We were doing fine before all this fuss...

[Doctor whooves]

Bah, humbug!

[Cormac Stark]

Well then you are in luck...

You yourself forcibly ejected me from my home region of.... Christmas, four days ago. And as I'm currently locked out of my HOME region with no way of getting back in, I have no option but to support this 'liberation'. So this is me, telling you that I am opposed to your refounding plan.

I would note that it has taken you four days to notice that you've been ejected from your home region. I would also note that you did not respond to my telegrams and that we would have been willing to work with you had you responded.

You will have the option to return to the region as soon as it's refounded, where you will be able to do exactly what you did before -- which was answer issues, acquire regional influence, and not post on the RMB or be in any way active in the region. You will also have the opportunity to be more active if you so choose, and free of the possibility of constant invasion and possible refounding by a much less friendly region.

I'm not sure what smear campaign this is? The only person who has contacted me was yourself; first to tell me Christmas had been raided then to tell me that we were to become part of Asgard.

The smear campaign to which I was referring has been the insidious and undiplomatic campaign of deception and slander that has been perpetrated by this proposal's author and his friends in the UDL. You can find much of that campaign throughout this thread, although some of the most precious gems have taken place on regional forums and IRCs.

I'm not surprised that he didn't contact you, though. I contacted you because Asgard actually cares about the natives of Christmas and wanted all of you to be aware of what was going on; Mahaj only cares about passage of his liberation resolution.

I can assure you that I was not assured that you were only interested in providing us with security. You first wanted to talk to me about the future of Christmas, then just five days later it would appear that you have decided what the future of Christmas should be...a colony of Asgard. I know I didn't ask to become a colony... even if you could provide us with security

I most certainly have assured natives who were responsive to my telegrams that we are interested in providing the region with security and stability. I refrained from sending multiple TGs to natives who were unresponsive, like yourself, to avoid anything that might be construed as spam or harassment.

You may not have asked to become a colony, but let me paint you a picture of the region's future if this liberation resolution passes and we are unsuccessful: You will be raided, and frequently. TITO, the FRA, and the UDL will not help you, as they did not this time. Should you and other natives decide to refound for your security, you will in all likelihood need to password protect the region -- but before you will be able to do that you will first have to repeal Liberate Christmas.

Should you decide not to refound, the number of nations will eventually dwindle and another region or organization -- perhaps one far less friendly and with far less noble intentions than our own, like The Greater German Reich -- will password protect the region and eject all remaining nations before the Security Council can act to prevent it. Unlike us, they may not guarantee you the right of return. If they do, they will almost certainly not assist you in establishing an offsite forum or a regional government.

We don't want Christmas as a trophy. We have annexed Christmas because we believe we can provide a brighter future for the region. This liberation resolution promises only the future that I have described above.

[Baubles]

I would note that it has taken you four days to notice that you've been ejected from your home region. I would also note that you did not respond to my telegrams and that we would have been willing to work with you had you responded.

I would also note that just because I haven't said anything for four days doesn't mean I didn't notice... I can assure you that I noticed within a day of being ejected. The reason I didn't respond to your telegrams is that I thought nothing of them. Raiders have typically only stayed a couple of days and none have done this before.

You will also have the opportunity to be more active if you so choose, and free of the possibility of constant invasion and possible refounding by a much less friendly region.

You keep harping on about the "constant invasions" that take place in Christmas. If you would care to look through the region's history you would notice that the we have only had 6 raider delegates (including yourself) in over 2.5 years, we have also had 9 defender delegates diligently tidying up our region after you guys have left. So your claim that TITO, the FRA and The UDL have abandoned us is false, they are clearly more than happy to help us out (as is also shown by the fact that Mahaj has organised this liberation...)

The smear campaign to which I was referring has been the insidious and undiplomatic campaign of deception and slander that has been perpetrated by this proposal's author.

Reading through this thread would also indicate that he is not the only one doing so...

I'm not surprised that he didn't contact you, though. I contacted you because Asgard actually cares about the natives of Christmas and wanted all of you to be aware of what was going on; Mahaj only cares about passage of his liberation resolution.

If Asgard really cared about us you wouldn't be refounding our region against our wishes...

Should you decide not to refound, the number of nations will eventually dwindle and another region or organization -- perhaps one far less friendly and with far less noble intentions than our own, like The Greater German Reich -- will password protect the region and eject all remaining nations before the Security Council can act to prevent it. Unlike us, they may not guarantee you the right of return. If they do, they will almost certainly not assist you in establishing an offsite forum or a regional government.

Answer me this. If you guys are no longer in our region because it has been liberated and that liberation is still in place because we have chosen not to repeal it; then how in the hell can The Greater German Reich password our region?