NATION

PASSWORD

[PASSED] Liberate Region of Reunited Muslim States

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Pictria
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Founded: May 05, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Pictria » Wed May 23, 2012 11:51 am

Against. Resolution is failing!
DEFCON LEVEL-3

5-Peace, regular readiness
4-Heightened security
3-Prepared for war
2-War
1-Nuclear war, armageddon

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Mahaj
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Ex-Nation

Postby Mahaj » Wed May 23, 2012 11:52 am

Pictria wrote:Against. Resolution is failing!

It's passing right now.
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<@Eluvatar> Why is SkyDip such a purist raiderist
<+frattastan> Because his region was never raided.
<+maxbarry> EarthAway: I guess I might dabble in raiding just to experience it better, but I would not like to raid regions of natives, so I'd probably be more interested in defense and liberations

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Mahaj
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Ex-Nation

Postby Mahaj » Wed May 23, 2012 11:54 am

Delegate Vinage wrote:
Mahaj wrote:
Oh really? They'd do that?

I hardly think so.


Going through the RMB you'll find they've made some homophobic comments in the past - Notably this comment but you'll find other similar ones if you look around the 15 - 20 day mark.

And all those are after the raid... meaning that they were goaded into them by flaming raiders.

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Mahaj wrote:TBR will move one once its destroyed and refounded, and while you might be okay with region destroying, I'm not, and I will do what it takes to solve it, including helping to write a liberation proposal.


GGR, on the other hand, is woefully incompetent. Furthermore, based on influence levels, GGR's destroying will take far longer than this one will.

Anybody with reasonable priorities would see that trying to fix RORMS first makes more sense.


You're right, I love destroying Fascist regions. However, as far as I am aware, TBR rarely if ever refound - their original intention with RORMS was a tagging raid, as the RMB makes clear. It's only the defenders' complete lack of courage that's allowed them to get a password in place. The GGR, however, intend to refound TUKB. There is no argument for liberating RORMS first.

Also, some RORMS members support stoning gays based upon the Qu'ran. If you want to defend that, that's your choice, but really?

TBR is heading for a refound now... and instead of sniping about lack of courage, why don't you come up with 60 updaters and then you can talk. There's no argument for liberating TUKOB first when influence levels so clearly tell us RORMS is more desperate.

While exciting, this is far more tangible than religion. Some can argue religion doesn't exist... nobody can argue this password doesn't currently exist.
Last edited by Mahaj on Wed May 23, 2012 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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<@Eluvatar> Why is SkyDip such a purist raiderist
<+frattastan> Because his region was never raided.
<+maxbarry> EarthAway: I guess I might dabble in raiding just to experience it better, but I would not like to raid regions of natives, so I'd probably be more interested in defense and liberations

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Wed May 23, 2012 12:12 pm

On a more basic level, though, you're allowing a bunch of Nazis to run amok while you deal with a bunch of hoi-polloi raiders doing their thing, attacking a region whose members have said terrible things about gays. It doesn't matter if they were goaded or not, it's still hatred. The reason Antifa don't like most other defenders, with the exception of the far more sensible and principled TITO, is precisely this - the UDL and FRA defend regions like RORMS, which is homophobic, and regions that actively celebrate fascism, while allowing Nazis free rein to crush wherever they choose, whenever they choose.
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Wed May 23, 2012 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Opaloka
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Founded: May 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Opaloka » Wed May 23, 2012 12:13 pm

Cromarty wrote:
Opaloka wrote: But the antics of the 'nazi defenders league' have long since ceased to amaze.

You stay classy Opaloka!


Working classy! You stay out that UDL not good people not even good defenders. TITO had to defend bazlantis's own backyard democratic socialist alliance just recently. Wanna be a defender join the red fleet (and do a little raiding too) or TITO. Wanna support nazis & anti-semite homophobic medievalists join UDL.
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Cromarty
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cromarty » Wed May 23, 2012 12:17 pm

Opaloka wrote:
Cromarty wrote:You stay classy Opaloka!


Working classy! You stay out that UDL not good people not even good defenders.
Please try to be coherent.

But I like that UDL members are apparently bad people for not letting you grief.

TITO had to defend bazlantis's own backyard democratic socialist alliance
Good for TITO.

Wanna be a defender join the red fleet (and do a little raiding too)
Wanna be a delusional Stalinist? Join the Red Fleet!
or TITO.
Nah, when I defended I preferred to do my fighting in regions, not in the technical forum.
Wanna support nazis & anti-semite homophobic medievalists join UDL.
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Fischistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Fischistan » Wed May 23, 2012 12:26 pm

The UDL recently liberated Democratic Socialist Alliance from invaders. And don't even talk about being homophobic, because TITO will defend Muslim regions too. It's only nazis they don't defend (to my knowledge), and we will not defend nazis. So get over it.
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Crushing Our Enemies
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Corporate Police State

Postby Crushing Our Enemies » Wed May 23, 2012 12:28 pm

Mahaj wrote:
Delegate Vinage wrote:
Going through the RMB you'll find they've made some homophobic comments in the past - Notably this comment but you'll find other similar ones if you look around the 15 - 20 day mark.

And all those are after the raid... meaning that they were goaded into them by flaming raiders.

Unsubstantiated claim is unsubstantiated.
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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Wed May 23, 2012 12:41 pm

Fischistan wrote:The UDL recently liberated Democratic Socialist Alliance from invaders. And don't even talk about being homophobic, because TITO will defend Muslim regions too. It's only nazis they don't defend (to my knowledge), and we will not defend nazis. So get over it.


What about fascists? Will the UDL and FRA defend fascists?
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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Sedgistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sedgistan » Wed May 23, 2012 12:41 pm

Opaloka wrote:
Cromarty wrote:You stay classy Opaloka!


Working classy! You stay out that UDL not good people not even good defenders. TITO had to defend bazlantis's own backyard democratic socialist alliance just recently. Wanna be a defender join the red fleet (and do a little raiding too) or TITO. Wanna support nazis & anti-semite homophobic medievalists join UDL.

We've seen you jump into several threads recently to hijack them by baiting UDL members. If that continues, expect to be warned. Stick to the topic - there's a proposal to debate here.

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Sedgistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sedgistan » Wed May 23, 2012 12:41 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Fischistan wrote:The UDL recently liberated Democratic Socialist Alliance from invaders. And don't even talk about being homophobic, because TITO will defend Muslim regions too. It's only nazis they don't defend (to my knowledge), and we will not defend nazis. So get over it.


What about fascists? Will the UDL and FRA defend fascists?

This threadjack ends now.

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Wed May 23, 2012 12:47 pm

Very well, back on topic it is.

Fischistan wrote:AWARE that these natives have expressed their desire to return to their region and have subsequently gathered in the region of RORMS,


I'd argue that this makes the proposal somewhat less justified - if they are gathered in RORMS as a second home, as opposed to their old home of Region of Reunited Muslim States, then does their homeland actually need liberating, if they've established a new functioning community? I'd argue that it doesn't need liberating, much as they'd like it to be liberated.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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Campinia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Campinia » Wed May 23, 2012 12:51 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:Very well, back on topic it is.

Fischistan wrote:AWARE that these natives have expressed their desire to return to their region and have subsequently gathered in the region of RORMS,


I'd argue that this makes the proposal somewhat less justified - if they are gathered in RORMS as a second home, as opposed to their old home of Region of Reunited Muslim States, then does their homeland actually need liberating, if they've established a new functioning community? I'd argue that it doesn't need liberating, much as they'd like it to be liberated.

The same could be said about TUKOB/UKOB though, but since they are not muslims this doesn't seem to be an issue.
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Skizzy Grey
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Founded: Jan 26, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Skizzy Grey » Wed May 23, 2012 12:52 pm

Mahaj wrote:
Delegate Vinage wrote:
Going through the RMB you'll find they've made some homophobic comments in the past - Notably this comment but you'll find other similar ones if you look around the 15 - 20 day mark.

And all those are after the raid... meaning that they were goaded into them by flaming raiders.


When someone wrongs you, do you respond with hatred of gays?

For the benefit of those who didn't bother to click through, here's the quote (translated from the original Arabic by Google; apologies for the awkwardness):

I feel sick game that the authorities are allowing gays to hide behind the invaders damage to this region. Is an offense to the authorities of the game, it is an offense for a Muslim people who live here and it shows that the invaders of the lovers of gay men is forbidden in the Koran.


It's not like any natives leaped forward to clarify that this person didn't speak for them, either.

So in sum, given the choice between helping bigots and people being oppressed by bigots, the UDL chose to help the bigots. Your parents must be proud.

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Al Horeya
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Ex-Nation

Macht macht Recht

Postby Al Horeya » Wed May 23, 2012 12:54 pm

If RoRMS is liberated, it sets a precedent-all Invaded regions would have to be liberated. Unless we decide to play favorites, that is, in which case the only regions which we will liberate are the large, important, and/or connected ones.
Since I believe few will agree to that, the question should be rephrased: should Invasions be illegal? I, for one, do not believe they should be.
However, I do believe that adding the password should not be allowed. That is an unfair tactic. Otherwise, though, if the old RORMS nations want their region back, they will have to perform some political maneuvering.
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Goobergunchia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Goobergunchia » Wed May 23, 2012 12:55 pm

Al Horeya wrote:If RoRMS is liberated, it sets a precedent-all Invaded regions would have to be liberated. Unless we decide to play favorites, that is, in which case the only regions which we will liberate are the large, important, and/or connected ones.
Since I believe few will agree to that, the question should be rephrased: should Invasions be illegal? I, for one, do not believe they should be.
However, I do believe that adding the password should not be allowed. That is an unfair tactic. Otherwise, though, if the old RORMS nations want their region back, they will have to perform some political maneuvering.


Suggestions to change game mechanics should go in the Technical Forum. The Security Council does not have the power to change the game's rules.
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Campinia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Campinia » Wed May 23, 2012 12:56 pm

Al Horeya wrote:If RoRMS is liberated, it sets a precedent-all Invaded regions would have to be liberated. Unless we decide to play favorites, that is, in which case the only regions which we will liberate are the large, important, and/or connected ones.
Since I believe few will agree to that, the question should be rephrased: should Invasions be illegal? I, for one, do not believe they should be.
However, I do believe that adding the password should not be allowed. That is an unfair tactic. Otherwise, though, if the old RORMS nations want their region back, they will have to perform some political maneuvering.

If all you want is the password removed, then you're in luck, as that is the ONLY thing a Liberation resolution does. Otherwise, try to educate yourself on what a proposal does before commenting on it.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Wed May 23, 2012 12:57 pm

Al Horeya wrote:If RoRMS is liberated, it sets a precedent-all Invaded regions would have to be liberated. Unless we decide to play favorites, that is, in which case the only regions which we will liberate are the large, important, and/or connected ones.
Since I believe few will agree to that, the question should be rephrased: should Invasions be illegal? I, for one, do not believe they should be.
However, I do believe that adding the password should not be allowed. That is an unfair tactic. Otherwise, though, if the old RORMS nations want their region back, they will have to perform some political maneuvering.

What Goob and Camp said. And your assumptions are incorrect. Not every invaded region needs a Liberation.
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Fischistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Fischistan » Wed May 23, 2012 12:57 pm

Al Horeya wrote:If RoRMS is liberated, it sets a precedent-all Invaded regions would have to be liberated.

You mean all regions that are invaded that have a password put on them? Well, it is a precedent that all invaded regions that have a password put on them have a Liberation.
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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Wed May 23, 2012 1:01 pm

First of all, something from the deposted Delegate of the region, posted on the RMB of the refugee region.

5 hours ago: Fischistan submitted a proposal to the Security Council Liberation Board entitled "Liberate Region of reunited muslim states".

I suppose you are referring to this nation who did not even bother to contact anyone in this region? Another example of complete arrogance and the disregard for Islamic nations in this game. The region that the proposer of that motion is in does not even have an embassy with us. I have sent them a short telegram asking them for an explanation of their actions. I am assuming that it was prompted out of an intrusive sense of altruism, a too-little-too-late attempt by defender aligned parties trying to recover from failure to support us or even offer us an explanation why they could not contact us about their failure to organise themselves, or the nation in question thought that they would attempt to aggrandize themselves while deliberately refusing to consult with any nations in this region.

Liberations motions are not universally regarded as a helpful thing. The proof is clearly visible in the region of Islam where the WASC 'Liberation' motion (which is no "liberation", all it does is remove the right of the elected delegate to password the region) and it prevented Muslim nations from passwording and refounding the region for over two years, the result being that the region was unable to be refounded before the Nazi founder returned to the game. Ask our previous delegate and other nations here, delegates of Islam have been powerless to bring about positive change in the region for years.

You better have a good explanation ready Fischistan as why you thought your ideas on our region were more important than the hundred people here. I bet you're not even a Muslim, just a wannabe who sticks their nose into other region's business.


I'm pretty sure that alone kills this resolution.

Now, also, while I am not the Delegate of Wolfram and Hart, I do have the authority to make the decision of Wolfram and Hart known on this subject, due to my position as Director of Contracts (W&H's equivelant of a Minister of Foreign Affairs) and a specific clause of the Corporate Charter involving the WAD and the Security Council. I will now quote my statement on this from the Wolfram and Hart Forums.

Absolutely not.

As Director of Contracts, I am invoking Section VII Clause 3 of the Corporate Charter.

3. In instances involving the interests of the Firm abroad, the Director of Contracts may order the Delegate to vote a certain way on Security Council Resolutions. The Delegate may appeal this order to the Senior Partners.


It is not in Wolfram and Hart's interests to take part in a this travesty of justice, it is an attempt by the Defenders to once again use the SC to interfere in a personal fight with regions like TBR. Wolfram and Hart should not be a party to this effort to turn the Security Council into a partisan engine.

Moreover, the fact that a much more important resulution to protect The United Kingdom of Britain from destruction by the forces of the Greater German Reich was taken down explicity so this one could go forward is completely inexcusable.

If you wish to appeal this decision to the Senior Partners, you may.

To clarify: By order of the Director of Contracts, under Section VII, Clause 3 of the Corporate Charter, the WA delegate of Wolram and Hart is to vote AGAINST this resolution..
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Goobergunchia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Goobergunchia » Wed May 23, 2012 1:07 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:First of all, something from the deposted Delegate of the region, posted on the RMB of the refugee region.

5 hours ago: Fischistan submitted a proposal to the Security Council Liberation Board entitled "Liberate Region of reunited muslim states".

I suppose you are referring to this nation who did not even bother to contact anyone in this region? Another example of complete arrogance and the disregard for Islamic nations in this game. The region that the proposer of that motion is in does not even have an embassy with us. I have sent them a short telegram asking them for an explanation of their actions. I am assuming that it was prompted out of an intrusive sense of altruism, a too-little-too-late attempt by defender aligned parties trying to recover from failure to support us or even offer us an explanation why they could not contact us about their failure to organise themselves, or the nation in question thought that they would attempt to aggrandize themselves while deliberately refusing to consult with any nations in this region.

Liberations motions are not universally regarded as a helpful thing. The proof is clearly visible in the region of Islam where the WASC 'Liberation' motion (which is no "liberation", all it does is remove the right of the elected delegate to password the region) and it prevented Muslim nations from passwording and refounding the region for over two years, the result being that the region was unable to be refounded before the Nazi founder returned to the game. Ask our previous delegate and other nations here, delegates of Islam have been powerless to bring about positive change in the region for years.

You better have a good explanation ready Fischistan as why you thought your ideas on our region were more important than the hundred people here. I bet you're not even a Muslim, just a wannabe who sticks their nose into other region's business.


Here's the link.
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Fischistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Fischistan » Wed May 23, 2012 1:09 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:I suppose you are referring to this nation who did not even bother to contact anyone in this region?

No time. The longer I want, the more of you that get ejected.
Another example of complete arrogance and the disregard for Islamic nations in this game.

You think the religion of the region even matters to me? lol
The region that the proposer of that motion is in does not even have an embassy with us.

And that matters why...?
I have sent them a short telegram asking them for an explanation of their actions.

Why do you think.
[/quote]
If you'd rather stay passworded and be griefed, then please post here confirming that statement.
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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Wed May 23, 2012 1:11 pm

So, in other words, a Liberation proposal has been put forward on behalf of a group of people who don't want the person who put forward the Liberation proposal to Liberate them. :eyebrow: There's a flaw in the logic of the proposal, then, methinks.
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

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Cerian Quilor
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Wed May 23, 2012 1:23 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:So, in other words, a Liberation proposal has been put forward on behalf of a group of people who don't want the person who put forward the Liberation proposal to Liberate them. :eyebrow: There's a flaw in the logic of the proposal, then, methinks.

Exactly. They're defenders. It goes with the territory.
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Cowardly Pacifists
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cowardly Pacifists » Wed May 23, 2012 2:11 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:*snip*

I thank the delegate from Cerian Quilor for their diligence and their research. This information completely changes my delegation's position on this proposal. Our understanding is that a Liberation is appropriate where the natives of a region are threatened by a password and have sought the assistance of the Security Counsel in making it possible for them to return home.

It is not the place of outsiders to request a liberation on behalf of a raided region, unless they are asked to do so. The evidence indicates that the delegate of the invaded region not only opposes this proposal, but actually resents it. I conclude that the natives of RORMS do not want SC assistance in striking down delegate imposed barriers to free entry.

Accordingly, my delegation's vote shall be cast AGAINST this proposal, pending new evidence suggesting that the natives of RORMS actually want the SC to meddle in their regional affairs.

Best Regards.
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