NationStates

The Security Council,

Noting that Allied States of EuroIslanders is a founding region of The Red Liberty Alliance, which was once an organization dedicated to defending socialist regions against invaders,

Recognizing that a region's forums are not only the halls of government, but also the heart and soul of the community, where the history and culture can be forever memorialized even after the region falls away,

Believing that a region's forum should be respected, and should never be targeted even during the most heated conflicts,

Knowing that the Red Liberty Alliance, headed by soldiers of Allied States of EuroIslanders, completely destroyed the forums, and all content within, of three different regions: DEN, Invaders Army, and The Black Hawks,

Appalled by these actions, and the threats of repeating this against other regions,

Dismayed by Allied States of EuroIslanders bragging about committing this heinous crime,

Hereby Condemns Allied States of EuroIslanders.

For refrence of threats to do it again see http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=604086

for an admission of doing it, and bragging, I give you this.

http://s7.zetaboards.com/FRA/single/?p=8188954&t=8555774

Since I am not sure if this is veiwable to guests or not. Here is a part of it.

Of course while the ADN fielded the bigger army, Blackbird, TPC delegate and RLA director of intelligence, perfected the dark arts of infiltrating invader groups. As Evil Wolf mentions, some of our greatest triumphs involved being completely in control of DEN and sundry other invader groups via our well-placed agents. In terms of counter-intelligence, we were unparalleled, having the IP address for 90% of invaders. We would have continued to control them, restricting them at need, had certain imprudent people at the ADN not decided to out them. So we used our weapon of last resort and absolutely torched the forums they handed over so easily to our people - not once but for a couple of the leading invader groups of the time.

Although I think they (?) have apologized since then, recently; yeah a condemnation seems like the correct sentiments. To explain why we're just getting to it now, perhaps you could mention TPC dispute and how that's resurrected this debate.

Just some considerations,

Recognizing that a region's forums are not only the halls of government, but also the heart and soul centre/home of the community, where the history and culture can be forever memorialized even after the region falls away,

Believing that a region's forum are sacred should be respected, and off limits even should never be targeted even during the most heated conflicts,

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Switched order to put abstract clauses at the top. There was some awkward word choices like "sacred" and "soul" that I replaced.

Noting that Allied States of EuroIslanders is a (a? or the?) founding region of The Red Liberty Alliance, which was once an organization dedicated to defending socialist regions against invaders,

Knowing that the Red Liberty Alliance, headed by soldiers of Allied States of EuroIslanders, completely destroyed the forums, and all content within (Rule IV violation? You're using the equivocation of "forums" to be legal, can a forum have content?), of three different regions: DEN, Invaders Army, and The Black Hawks,

Appalled by these actions, and the threats of repeating this against other regions,

Dismayed by Allied States of EuroIslanders bragging about committing this heinous crime (Would it matter if they didn't brag?),

Hereby Condemns Allied States of EuroIslanders.

Rather ancient history there, guys. Must be a slow week in the Security Council.

I don't have alot of time, I am a bit sleepy, and it's late.

However I do want to say a few things.

(Would it matter if they didn't brag?),

Rather ancient history there, guys. Must be a slow week in the Security Council.

It does matter that they bragged, as well as threatened to repeat the actions. Because that's a very important reason for this condemnation. Also why TPC isn't being condemned. Also it was TPC that appologized, though they wouldn't be condemned anyway as I have never saw them even talk about it. It's because ASE has been bragging about it, and threatening to do it again. That is why I feel there is a need of a condemnation. Otherwise I would agree that it's ancient history.

I think there needs to be something said that these types of actions will not be celibrated, will not be tolerated, and we will do what we can to punish those who do this.


Uni, I'll look at your suggestions in more depth tommorrow, when I can concentrate more on them.

Since the commentary (bragging, threatening to do it again) have been made by Eurosoviets personally, and not as a formal statement by the region, how come you're targeting ASE instead of Eurosoviets?

Ballotonia

Unibot, I think most of your suggestions are good. I'll change to reflect it. With one exception. I believe content is not a violation of Rule 4.

In keeping with the rule 4 variant of what a "forum" is. Not an off site forum, but the forums of government, this would be like a capital building, or a collection of buildings. Buildings have contents, so if someone was to blow up said buildings, and nothing inside was salvageable, it could be said that they destroyed the forums of government, and all contents within.
At least that is my thinking. I am sure a MOD can tell us more clearly though.

Balltonia, I thought about condemning Eurosoviets instead of Allied States of EuroIslanders for the very reason you said. I was actually a little torn over the decision. My conclusion was by doing the region, it's more visible, bigger impact. I also didn't want to ignore the actual act which is perhaps more suited to being a regional condemn. Though I do want to stress the recent things as being the catalysts for the condemnation.

Whamabama wrote:Balltonia, I thought about condemning Eurosoviets instead of Allied States of EuroIslanders for the very reason you said. I was actually a little torn over the decision. My conclusion was by doing the region, it's more visible, bigger impact. I also didn't want to ignore the actual act which is perhaps more suited to being a regional condemn. Though I do want to stress the recent things as being the catalysts for the condemnation.

So your condemning nations of the region who weren't around back then for something they might know even know about?

Whamabama wrote: At least that is my thinking. I am sure a MOD can tell us more clearly though.

I'd go for a mod ruling. But yep I wouldn't disagree. If a forum's "interior" can be changed to pink ^[1], a forum's content should be able to be destroyed.

Unibot IIX wrote:

Whamabama wrote: At least that is my thinking. I am sure a MOD can tell us more clearly though.

I'd go for a mod ruling. But yep I wouldn't disagree. If a forum's "interior" can be changed to pink ^[1], a forum's content should be able to be destroyed.

I'm not a big fan of R4 in general, but I have to second that. I rely on precedent when it comes to these things, but a mod ruling's always good to be safe.

OOC: It's VIII, not IIX.

Drop Your Pants wrote:

Whamabama wrote:Balltonia, I thought about condemning Eurosoviets instead of Allied States of EuroIslanders for the very reason you said. I was actually a little torn over the decision. My conclusion was by doing the region, it's more visible, bigger impact. I also didn't want to ignore the actual act which is perhaps more suited to being a regional condemn. Though I do want to stress the recent things as being the catalysts for the condemnation.

So your condemning nations of the region who weren't around back then for something they might know even know about?

This.

And this seems to be really old, and I thought the whole 'hold TPC' thing was about this?

Seems like enough is enough, even though it is forum destruction.

Opposed.

Mahaj WA Seat wrote:
And this seems to be really old, and I thought the whole 'hold TPC' thing was about this?

Seems like enough is enough, even though it is forum destruction.

Opposed.

This isn't TPC.

Also really old? Aug 07 2011, and 35 days ago respectivly. Not old. The forum destruction sure, but not the bragging, not the threats, those are recent. Because of recent things is why this has been written.

Whamabama wrote:Also really old? Aug 07 2011, and 35 days ago respectivly. Not old. The forum destruction sure, but not the bragging, not the threats, those are recent. Because of recent things is why this has been written.

The recent stuff wasn't done by ASE. It was done by Eurosoviets.

Ballotonia

Connopolis wrote:OOC: It's VIII, not IIX.

OOC: Someone impersonated me I believe, so I took IIX. Besides the one with the least amount of characters makes more sense.

Defenders side stepping the issue of forum destruction by trying to scapegoat an individual instead of placing the blame with the group at large? Boy this feels familiar, I think I've seen this somewhere else before I just...can't seem to remember where...Oh well, it will come to me I'm sure.

There is NO way that what the RLAI did were isolated incidents that happened 3 times, spaced out over years, and in the case of DEN and Invaders took years to plan.

ASE's world factbook entry brags their membership in the RLA, despite knowing the crimes of the RLA, despite seeing their ally, TPC fall for the same thing. If a region can't be accountable for what is said in their WFE for years, then why hold a region accountable for anything.

hey ho let's go. condemn these mothers.

Whamabama wrote:

Mahaj WA Seat wrote:
And this seems to be really old, and I thought the whole 'hold TPC' thing was about this?

Seems like enough is enough, even though it is forum destruction.

Opposed.

This isn't TPC.

Also really old? Aug 07 2011, and 35 days ago respectivly. Not old. The forum destruction sure, but not the bragging, not the threats, those are recent. Because of recent things is why this has been written.

Is bragging condemnable? If so, the threshold for being condemned is rather low. And if so, why aren't we condemned? We brag and threaten people on every raid. This is discrimatory indeed .

Of crazed wrote:ASE's world factbook entry brags their membership in the RLA, despite knowing the crimes of the RLA, despite seeing their ally, TPC fall for the same thing. If a region can't be accountable for what is said in their WFE for years, then why hold a region accountable for anything.

EuroSoviets controls the WFE not the region

Ah yes, its clearly Eurosoviets fault for all the forum destruction, not anyone else in that region, no one else was at all involved in those griefings. Just like how when Rougiers greifed those defender forums Defenders blamed only Rougiers and not Unknown as a whole, which is why no WA Condemnation was passed against Unknown that specifically mentioned Rougiers.

Nope, never happened.

Ballotonia wrote:Since the commentary (bragging, threatening to do it again) have been made by Eurosoviets personally, and not as a formal statement by the region, how come you're targeting ASE instead of Eurosoviets?

Ballotonia

The blame for the actions does not rest on many of the members of the region; it is quite possible to be unaware of the issue of forum destruction, past or present. If this were the sole consideration, I would certainly support condemning ES over the ASE as a whole.

However, the comments made publically by the ASE's leader, both admitting to, condoning, and threatening forum destruction, are what makes this a regional issue. There was no objection made to the statements by the native population, who by the nature of their placement can no longer be assumed to be unaware of this position. It is, if not a vocal support for the beliefs, certainly a tolerance.

As far as TPC goes, if I'd seen comments and reactions like this in the 9 months I spent there, I wouldn't have given them a chance to apologize; I would've started the banjections as soon as I had sufficient influence.

Evil Wolf wrote:Ah yes, its clearly Eurosoviets fault for all the forum destruction, not anyone else in that region, no one else was at all involved in those griefings. Just like how when Rougiers greifed those defender forums Defenders blamed only Rougiers and not Unknown as a whole, which is why no WA Condemnation was passed against Unknown that specifically mentioned Rougiers.

Nope, never happened.

Which current members of ASE were involved in the forum attacks, besides ES?

Forum destruction is just as bad as region destruction. I strongly support the Condemnation of EuroSoviets.

Drop Your Pants wrote:Which current members of ASE were involved in the forum attacks, besides ES?

Anyone who was a member of the RLA when they destroyed the DEN forums, TBH forum, or, yes, even the Invader Army forums, although they backtracked on their initial story in that case when the defender community turned against them. Defenders for their part, I might add, were far too eager to snap up even the flimsily of denials and quickly accepted TRF's "punishment". But really, even if those old nations are not currently in ASE anymore, it shouldn't matter.

ASE still stands by the same principle as they always have, and they have done monstrous things as the central region in the RLA in the past. Time has not changed anything, lets not pretend that simply because their unrepentant deeds happened a while back that they are no longer applicable today.

Evil Wolf wrote:

Drop Your Pants wrote:Which current members of ASE were involved in the forum attacks, besides ES?

Anyone who was a member of the RLA when they [...]

That's a general qualifier, not an actual answer to the question. Names, names, we want names!

Ballotonia

He doesn't have any You can normally tell he's fishing when he starts going on about defenders as a whole