(PASSED) Condemn Allied States of EuroIslanders

[Unibot II]

Up to vote.

[Swarmlandia]

My delegate nation votes FOR this, and I don't mean TGC's delegate.

[Drop Your Pants]

Pity this topic was mostly ignored, the only reason it'll pass is because it mentions forum destruction.

[Whamabama]

Forum destruction is the issue. They did it, the are proud the did it, and have threatened to do it again. It is also my belief that such things are deserving of a condemnation.

While it has been noted that ES is the one who bragged, and the one that threatened the action. He is also the founder, and is in charge of the region. I didn't see any nation in ASE disagree with any of it.

[Mahaj]

Forum destruction is the issue. They did it, the are proud the did it, and have threatened to do it again. It is also my belief that such things are deserving of a condemnation.

While it has been noted that ES is the one who bragged, and the one that threatened the action. He is also the founder, and is in charge of the region. I didn't see any nation in ASE disagree with any of it.

Could they have not noticed it or not realized the scope of it? I believe condemning ES would have been better than ASE.

[Drop Your Pants]

While it has been noted that ES is the one who bragged, and the one that threatened the action. He is also the founder, and is in charge of the region. I didn't see any nation in ASE disagree with any of it.

Do they all know it happened? Its very hard for a nation to speak up against the founder and controller of the region, especially when the person asking might ignore the answer

Your condemning a whole region for the actions of a few (half not even in the game now). Its like Unknown all over again

[Of crazed]

The difference is that ASE was part of an alliance that did it over and over again. Not only did they never consider leaving the alliance, they remained proud members for years. Plus the de facto leader of the leader threatened they would do it again, after the TPC raids.

I don't get where this attitude that the leadership do not represent the regional comes from. Their support of forum destruction is not a rogue voice, it has been demonstrated constantly over the course of years. Stop making excuses for them.

[Drop Your Pants]

I don't excuse forum destruction, but blaming everyone in the region and branding them with the badge isn't the best way to go. Target the members you know did it not all the hangers on.

[Slivary]

Geroge Steck, the slivarian ambassador to the SC stood up in the chamber and voted aye. He then left the chamber and texted the minstry of foreign affairs his vote.

[Bizantinea]

Agreed you have the vote of my region

[Balaerica]

Ludicrous! You want to punish someone for punishing invaders? These guys actually do what the world assembly is supposed to do! And you want to punish them for some stupid thing like deleting the forums of criminal regions? Do not condemn EuroIslanders!

[Drop Your Pants]

You think forum destruction is an ok and just method? You won't make friends here

[Vatikahn]

long ago in the past, once upon 2 NS years away from today isn't realy a excuse what they do for reperation is one.
thats why no.

[Parti Ouvrier]

The Security Council,

Noting that Allied States of EuroIslanders is a founding region of The Red Liberty Alliance, which was once an organization dedicated to defending socialist regions against invaders,

Recognizing that a region's forums are not only the halls of government, but also the heart and soul of the community, where the history and culture can be forever memorialized even after the region falls away, (applies to many regions' RMB)

Believing that a region's forum should be respected, and should never be targeted even during the most heated conflicts,

Knowing that the Red Liberty Alliance, headed by soldiers of Allied States of EuroIslanders, completely destroyed the forums, and all content within, of three different regions: DEN, Invaders Army, and The Black Hawks,

Appalled by these actions, and the threats of repeating this against other regions,

Dismayed by Allied States of EuroIslanders bragging about committing this heinous crime,

Hereby Condemns Allied States of EuroIslanders.

All these things can be applied to region griefing. Many people would consider that regions should be respected, and should never be targeted...

Regions have been completely destroyed by raiders, and hundreds of regions, not just three, I think raiders forums have got off extremely lightly, what's your point?

Wez Spencer

[Lady Selina Grey]

While it has been noted that ES is the one who bragged, and the one that threatened the action. He is also the founder, and is in charge of the region. I didn't see any nation in ASE disagree with any of it.

Do they all know it happened? Its very hard for a nation to speak up against the founder and controller of the region, especially when the person asking might ignore the answer

Your condemning a whole region for the actions of a few (half not even in the game now). Its like Unknown all over again

And the founder has constructed a special net surrounding his region so they can't leave?

Any nation that voluntary stays in a region that considers forum destruction a good thing is an accessory to the crime.

Ludicrous! You want to punish someone for punishing invaders? These guys actually do what the world assembly is supposed to do! And you want to punish them for some stupid thing like deleting the forums of criminal regions? Do not condemn EuroIslanders!

I experienced a forum crash, I saw my entire regional history go up in flames, it's the worst the worst thing that happened to me in my time in NS.
Forumdestruction: someone, a group of people actually causing that to an entire region? I will never not condemn that!

Any person that considers forumdestruction a good thing is not a defender.

[Fotar]

A lot of interesting points from both sides in this debate.

After a lot of thought and consideration, I am going to vote for this. A region is represented by its leaders. If the leaders are no good, the region suffers, whether that is in the form of inactivity or a condemn badge. Is it fair, perhaps not. This isn't about being fair though. It is about being just.

Let us just assume for a moment that there are some members of ASE that are totally unaware of the forum destruction and actions of their leaders. Suddenly, they wake up one morning and see their leaders earned the region a condemn badge. They look at the condemn and learn about what their leaders truly stand for. They then have the option of staying or leaving. If they do not want to be condemned for such actions, they will leave in disgust, not because of a graphic on the region's page, but out of contempt for the actions of the leaders. If they choose to stay, then they obviously don't really care about the whole situation.

My point is this...those who you are all so afraid of offending with this badge probably care a lot more about the actions of their leaders than than being in a region that is condemned.

[Koridina]

This condemnation is a sham. There is not, at this time, any legitimate, democratic, active government for the region of ASE. For the mostpart, we just sit quietly and keep to ourselves. You are seeking to punish a region for something that never included the vast majority of the people of ASE, as it stands now. To condemn the region for an act years in the past for which no legitimate, regional government was responsible is disgraceful. Go after individuals if you must, but leave the many, many innocent people of my region alone.

[The Supreme Court of the United States]

This condemnation is a sham. There is not, at this time, any legitimate, democratic, active government for the region of ASE. For the mostpart, we just sit quietly and keep to ourselves. You are seeking to punish a region for something that never included the vast majority of the people of ASE, as it stands now. To condemn the region for an act years in the past for which no legitimate, regional government was responsible is disgraceful. Go after individuals if you must, but leave the many, many innocent people of my region alone.

Does a government need to be democratic to be considered a legitimate government?

And whatever the answer to that question may be, with a lack of a "legitimate" democratic government, ES is the true authority in the region - yes, you are the Delegate, but if he so desired, he could banject you at any time. The region is ultimately his to run, and if his attacks and bragging fly the banner of your region, then that is rather... unfortunate for you. He's part of the ASE package. Love it or leave it.

[Parti Ouvrier]

A lot of interesting points from both sides in this debate.

After a lot of thought and consideration, I am going to vote for this. A region is represented by its leaders. If the leaders are no good, the region suffers, whether that is in the form of inactivity or a condemn badge. Is it fair, perhaps not. This isn't about being fair though. It is about being just.

Let us just assume for a moment that there are some members of ASE that are totally unaware of the forum destruction and actions of their leaders. Suddenly, they wake up one morning and see their leaders earned the region a condemn badge. They look at the condemn and learn about what their leaders truly stand for. They then have the option of staying or leaving. If they do not want to be condemned for such actions, they will leave in disgust, not because of a graphic on the region's page, but out of contempt for the actions of the leaders. If they choose to stay, then they obviously don't really care about the whole situation.

My point is this...those who you are all so afraid of offending with this badge probably care a lot more about the actions of their leaders than than being in a region that is condemned.

But not only did this happen many years ago, (and only a few forums were temporarily crashed) but out of contempt, many people clearly did leave, (from 300 to 22) just like you say. I vote against this because the anti-EuroIslanders hysteria is pointless. Of course the shrill grudge bearers want to vote for this but for no justifiable reason in 2011 !! And their main reason for this condemnation is their own kind of alternative to raiding them. Sour grapes more than anything - a sad parady of what they claim to be. Maybe they could just go on a banning spree again, clearly raiders such as so-called Evil Wolf has lost all credibility and authority at what they so-called do best. In the region Anarchy, Wolf was reduced to a bureaucratic ban-counter. His lattest boast was banning 160 nations, (most of them merely puppets). Riveting stuff.

You could have justifiably voted for this in 2005, but not now. The raiders, (or should I call them banjecters now )clearly were not that upset at the time. And 353 days ago the history of ASEI shows that there is a new leader/delegate in EuroIslanders. Democracy is functioning in ASEI.

Wez Spencer
WA Ambassador to the DRPO

[The Bruce]

While I in no way condone the actions of invaders in their predation of founderless regional communities, it would be completely hypocritical not to condemn those who are responsible for destroying regional forums. This is taking an in-game conflict into criminal territory.

The destruction of these invader forums weren’t distant historical events that should be ignored. They resulted in a huge backlash against those responsible and against those who have since participated in forum destruction. It was contemptible behavior then and in no way has forum destruction become anything less than an activity that merits a condemnation by the NationStates community. Highly placed individuals in both the invader and defender populace have both participated in this criminal act and should be treated as nothing less than criminals.

[Unibot II]

While I in no way condone the actions of invaders in their predation of founderless regional communities, it would be completely hypocritical not to condemn those who are responsible for destroying regional forums. This is taking an in-game conflict into criminal territory.

The destruction of these invader forums weren’t distant historical events that should be ignored. They resulted in a huge backlash against those responsible and against those who have since participated in forum destruction. It was contemptible behavior then and in no way has forum destruction become anything less than an activity that merits a condemnation by the NationStates community. Highly placed individuals in both the invader and defender populace have both participated in this criminal act and should be treated as nothing less than criminals.

My thoughts on the matter are similar to the Bruce's. Well put.

[Koridina]

This condemnation is a sham. There is not, at this time, any legitimate, democratic, active government for the region of ASE. For the mostpart, we just sit quietly and keep to ourselves. You are seeking to punish a region for something that never included the vast majority of the people of ASE, as it stands now. To condemn the region for an act years in the past for which no legitimate, regional government was responsible is disgraceful. Go after individuals if you must, but leave the many, many innocent people of my region alone.

Does a government need to be democratic to be considered a legitimate government?

And whatever the answer to that question may be, with a lack of a "legitimate" democratic government, ES is the true authority in the region - yes, you are the Delegate, but if he so desired, he could banject you at any time. The region is ultimately his to run, and if his attacks and bragging fly the banner of your region, then that is rather... unfortunate for you. He's part of the ASE package. Love it or leave it.

During those periods of time during which ASE was active - as a region - we always had a democratic regional government in place. In the entire history of that legitimate, democratic government, ASE never participated in or supported any forum destruction. ASE's period of regional activity was highlighted by involvement in NS-based defense activities. It is unfair to punish a region based on the actions taken by a single individual who happens to be the founder.

To call ES the "true authority" in the region is truism - of course he has authority, just like every founder of every region in the game. But does that mean that the entire region ought to be held accountable for the actions of an individual? I would hope not, especially when the vast majority of those currently residing in the region had no involvement in the incident at issue AND we not even present in the game itself when the destruction took place.

Place the blame where it belongs, not on the backs of innocent people who only ever supported ASE during its golden age of defending.

[Lady Selina Grey]

If you don't want to be condemned for something the Founder did, don't stay in his region.

[The Jedi]

I'm going to have to call hypocrisy on anybody who feels differently about this than Condemn Unknown. Most of the arguments given apply equally to each, yet the outcomes are somehowvery different.

Maybe in another year, we'll be repealing this one as well.

[Lady Selina Grey]

I realise it's been quite some time since I looked into the events that lead to Condemn Unknown, but IIRC the Unkown government did not know in advance of Rougier's actions, they just didn't punish him for it afterwards.

Since the Founder basically is the government, in this case the government does know and approve.