[PASSED] Condemn Thatcherton

[Dinkamana]

For.

Some of these arguments sound awfully like blaming the victim, and I have yet to see any proof that FKR was becoming a raiding region, as has been claimed. It looks to me that Thatcherton won the trust of the region, got the controls and banjected everyone else. Whether or not the region was dying on its own, or the Founder Nation had neglected it isn't the issue. Perhaps it would have come back on its own, perhaps it would have died on its own, but that fate was needlessly hastened.

Also, this is exactly the sort of situation that should be voted on in the SoC due to the cross-region conflict that seems to be developing. If you allow a small problem to fester it could be come a big problem later on.

To be honest we haven't seen any proof of any of the claims. Where is the log of Thatcherton ejecting everyone? How about testimonies of some of those ejected? We have neither. What we have is Wreaker's claims, months after this supposedly happened. We don't even have the founder's word.

I find your claim of 'blaming the victim' to be disingenuous. We don't even know if we have a victim to blame. The Security Council has jumped to condemn a nation in the complete absence of compelling proof. It's a shame.

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/histor ... tart=&end=

That shows that after a month of Thatcherton being delegate, the region went from 14 to 1 within 7 days. Thats your log showing he ejected everyone. I find it hard to believe 13 nations would suddenly up and leave within a week

[Revert]

To be honest we haven't seen any proof of any of the claims. Where is the log of Thatcherton ejecting everyone? How about testimonies of some of those ejected? We have neither. What we have is Wreaker's claims, months after this supposedly happened. We don't even have the founder's word.

I find your claim of 'blaming the victim' to be disingenuous. We don't even know if we have a victim to blame. The Security Council has jumped to condemn a nation in the complete absence of compelling proof. It's a shame.

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/histor ... tart=&end=

That shows that after a month of Thatcherton being delegate, the region went from 14 to 1 within 7 days. Thats your log showing he ejected everyone. I find it hard to believe 13 nations would suddenly up and leave within a week

That doesn't show that Thatcherton ejected them. The founder could have. The nations could have decided to leave on their own (we are talking about 13 nations, not 1300). It could have been 13 puppets.

Really, we don't know anything other than in a week's time the population of a new region went from 14 to 1. Then it sat dormant for a few weeks despite there being a founder. Then it was refounded twice. We don't have any real evidence that says that Thatcherton ejected anyone.

*edit* to further demonstrate this, look at my old region the Galactic Republic.

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/histor ... tart=&end=

In my last week as delegate, it went from 786 to 670 nations. Does that prove I ejected all those nations? When given only that as evidence, the only reasonable answer is no.

[Osthia]

Since most of the voters in the SC are not even looking at the forums, I wish to announce that whether or not Thatcherton is condemned, he will remain a member of the Commonwealth of Crowns. He has done no wrong that can be proved by Wreaker, so we view him as innocent. Should this resolution be passed, the CoC will push for an SC Repeal of the Unjust Condemnation.

-Jack Anthony, Osthian Ambassador to the World Assembly

[The Wreaking]

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/histor ... tart=&end=

That shows that after a month of Thatcherton being delegate, the region went from 14 to 1 within 7 days. Thats your log showing he ejected everyone. I find it hard to believe 13 nations would suddenly up and leave within a week

That doesn't show that Thatcherton ejected them. The founder could have. The nations could have decided to leave on their own (we are talking about 13 nations, not 1300). It could have been 13 puppets.

Really, we don't know anything other than in a week's time the population of a new region went from 14 to 1. Then it sat dormant for a few weeks despite there being a founder. Then it was refounded twice. We don't have any real evidence that says that Thatcherton ejected anyone.

*edit* to further demonstrate this, look at my old region the Galactic Republic.

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/histor ... tart=&end=

In my last week as delegate, it went from 786 to 670 nations. Does that prove I ejected all those nations? When given only that as evidence, the only reasonable answer is no.

[We saw that the banned nations arrived in The Rejected Realms around 07:15 GMT on June 21. And the WFE entry comes from archives that we keep for tracking how we answer daily issues.]

The Federal Rangers has the proof. Other nations can testify also that he committed this crime.

[Revert]

That doesn't show that Thatcherton ejected them. The founder could have. The nations could have decided to leave on their own (we are talking about 13 nations, not 1300). It could have been 13 puppets.

Really, we don't know anything other than in a week's time the population of a new region went from 14 to 1. Then it sat dormant for a few weeks despite there being a founder. Then it was refounded twice. We don't have any real evidence that says that Thatcherton ejected anyone.

*edit* to further demonstrate this, look at my old region the Galactic Republic.

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/histor ... tart=&end=

In my last week as delegate, it went from 786 to 670 nations. Does that prove I ejected all those nations? When given only that as evidence, the only reasonable answer is no.

[We saw that the banned nations arrived in The Rejected Realms around 07:15 GMT on June 21. And the WFE entry comes from archives that we keep for tracking how we answer daily issues.]

The Federal Rangers has the proof. Other nations can testify also that he committed this crime.

A nation that didn't exist at the time of the banning has the proof? Care to post it?

[The Wreaking]

Apparently the proof was archived within The Rejected Realms logs. I have just Telegrammed TFR.

Anyway it's funny how Osthia trying to say that there's no proof when one of his own region's members Inkariztan (or Inzarkistan, the one that is not Wiendonia) admitted that he saw the whole thing.

[Osthia]

Apparently the proof was archived within The Rejected Realms logs. I have just Telegrammed TFR.

Anyway it's funny how Osthia trying to say that there's no proof when one of his own region's members Inkariztan (or Inzarkistan, the one that is not Wiendonia) admitted that he saw the whole thing.

I think its laudable that you speak of justice when you decide to piss on a trial that we were involving you in. You sir, are a hypocrite, and nothing more. You act as if you are the Knight of Justice. No, you are the Jester of Dischord, bringing forth an issue that mattered not to the international NS community. It was a dispute between you and Thatch. You could have condemned him four months ago when the damn thing actually happened. You didn't. Your reason is aweful, your arguments are baseless, and your attacks on the CoC on your RMB, two posts, actually, that show that you sir, are a belligerent crone:

The Republic of The Wreaker
6 days ago
The CoC are corrupt. They refuse to punish him whatsoever despite the evidence provided by four witnesses: me, Ukrainian Refugees, Slovitrea and A1 Juggernaut.

The Republic of The Wreaker
6 days ago
This is freaking bull, Thatcherton and the CoC are putting on a hell of an act here. They're going to invite me back to the CoC to tell my story (WHICH I ALREADY DID BEFORE THEY BANNED ME AND IGNORED MY MESSAGES) and then they're going to PRETEND TO HEAR IT, and then they're going to dismiss my claims and I will get angry and they will ban me AGAIN and Thatcherton will be absolved of all crimes AGAIN! Yes I can see it all now.
It's all a facade to try and justify democracy.

You presented NO evidence. You came dancing into the region and said "Thatcherton is evil, Thatcherton did this." Thats reason number 1 why I kicked you out. Second reason, you came at a VERY BAD TIME, of which I've reiterated for you before SEVERAL times. And unlike you, we have elections. Unlike you, we actually went through the trouble to try to sort things out in the end. But you decided to play the pity card and put in a condemnation, a ridiculous one at that. There are nations/regions that do far worse, but I don't see YOU, O Knight of Justice, going and condemning them.

[The Wreaker]

Apparently the proof was archived within The Rejected Realms logs. I have just Telegrammed TFR.

Anyway it's funny how Osthia trying to say that there's no proof when one of his own region's members Inkariztan (or Inzarkistan, the one that is not Wiendonia) admitted that he saw the whole thing.

I think its laudable that you speak of justice when you decide to piss on a trial that we were involving you in. You sir, are a hypocrite, and nothing more. You act as if you are the Knight of Justice. No, you are the Jester of Dischord, bringing forth an issue that mattered not to the international NS community. It was a dispute between you and Thatch. You could have condemned him four months ago when the damn thing actually happened. You didn't. Your reason is aweful, your arguments are baseless, and your attacks on the CoC on your RMB, two posts, actually, that show that you sir, are a belligerent crone:

The Republic of The Wreaker
6 days ago
The CoC are corrupt. They refuse to punish him whatsoever despite the evidence provided by four witnesses: me, Ukrainian Refugees, Slovitrea and A1 Juggernaut.

The Republic of The Wreaker
6 days ago
This is freaking bull, Thatcherton and the CoC are putting on a hell of an act here. They're going to invite me back to the CoC to tell my story (WHICH I ALREADY DID BEFORE THEY BANNED ME AND IGNORED MY MESSAGES) and then they're going to PRETEND TO HEAR IT, and then they're going to dismiss my claims and I will get angry and they will ban me AGAIN and Thatcherton will be absolved of all crimes AGAIN! Yes I can see it all now.
It's all a facade to try and justify democracy.

You presented NO evidence. You came dancing into the region and said "Thatcherton is evil, Thatcherton did this." Thats reason number 1 why I kicked you out. Second reason, you came at a VERY BAD TIME, of which I've reiterated for you before SEVERAL times. And unlike you, we have elections. Unlike you, we actually went through the trouble to try to sort things out in the end. But you decided to play the pity card and put in a condemnation, a ridiculous one at that. There are nations/regions that do far worse, but I don't see YOU, O Knight of Justice, going and condemning them.

You have just been proven to be a liar in front of the whole WA - you claimed that there was no judges from CoC, but Avorez is from the CoC and is a judge. How can anyone trust you or your region?

I said this before, I don't trust your trial, I don't trust your region. I presented you all evidence, and again you are lying to the WA that I did not. The fact is your banned me from your region for seeking justice and sheltered a criminal.

I also said this before, the reason I "waited four months", and I wasn't waiting, I didn't even know of this avenue then was because I put in all my efforts to persuade the regions of the CoC and the EUN to punish Thatcherton. It was only after they DENIED me justice that I realized that the WA would be more partial.

It's funny Osthia, how there are "elections" in your region, and you're getting all the votes without having a single campaign proposal or speech, while others who have written long, long lines of text and promises on how they would imprOve the region get zero votes. I wonder how you're so... influential... and charming... Are you sure there isn't some sort of an exchange under the table?

[Sedgistan]

It's funny Osthia, how there are "elections" in your region, and you're getting all the votes without having a single campaign proposal or speech, while others who have written long, long lines of text and promises on how they would imprOve the region get zero votes. I wonder how you're so... influential... and charming... Are you sure there isn't some sort of an exchange under the table?

This isn't a "debate all your regional disagreements" thread, please stick to discussing the proposal.

[The Federal Rangers]

A nation that didn't exist at the time of the banning has the proof? Care to post it?

I'm more skilled at using search engines than at posting links, so hopefully this is OK. (The google cache links are quite long, so I've put them in the spoilers.)

Google cache from June 21
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com//search?q=cache:ZJMJFbbx7jcJ:m.nationstates.net/page%3Ddisplay_region/region%3Dthe%2520Rejected%2520Realms/start%3D970

49 minutes ago: The Fiefdom of Ambassador of the GA to FKR arrived from The Federation of Kievan Rus.
49 minutes ago: The Disputed Territories of Chuporosa arrived from The Federation of Kievan Rus.
50 minutes ago: The Federal Republic of United Antilles arrived from The Federation of Kievan Rus.
50 minutes ago: The Zombieland of the Funland of Wolferian arrived from The Federation of Kievan Rus.
51 minutes ago: The Queendom of Bellepsia arrived from The Federation of Kievan Rus.
51 minutes ago: The Socialist Republic of Slovitrea arrived from The Federation of Kievan Rus.

Proof that it was Thatcherton
1. (from the Most Recent Government Activity of Ambassador of the GA to FKR)

82 days ago: Ambassador of the GA to FKR was ejected from The Federation Of Kievan Rus by The British Dominion of Thatcherton.

2.

Google cache from July 13
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bwcD1Nc8bVcJ:conservative.nationstates.net/nation%3Dbellepsia+The+Queendom+of+Bellepsia

21 days ago: Bellepsia was ejected from The Federation of Kievan Rus by The Holy Empire of Thatcherton.

[Revert]

A nation that didn't exist at the time of the banning has the proof? Care to post it?

I'm more skilled at using search engines than at posting links, so hopefully this is OK. (The google cache links are quite long, so I've put them in the spoilers.)

Google cache from June 21
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com//search?q=cache:ZJMJFbbx7jcJ:m.nationstates.net/page%3Ddisplay_region/region%3Dthe%2520Rejected%2520Realms/start%3D970

49 minutes ago: The Fiefdom of Ambassador of the GA to FKR arrived from The Federation of Kievan Rus.
49 minutes ago: The Disputed Territories of Chuporosa arrived from The Federation of Kievan Rus.
50 minutes ago: The Federal Republic of United Antilles arrived from The Federation of Kievan Rus.
50 minutes ago: The Zombieland of the Funland of Wolferian arrived from The Federation of Kievan Rus.
51 minutes ago: The Queendom of Bellepsia arrived from The Federation of Kievan Rus.
51 minutes ago: The Socialist Republic of Slovitrea arrived from The Federation of Kievan Rus.

Proof that it was Thatcherton
1. (from the Most Recent Government Activity of Ambassador of the GA to FKR)

82 days ago: Ambassador of the GA to FKR was ejected from The Federation Of Kievan Rus by The British Dominion of Thatcherton.

2.

Google cache from July 13
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bwcD1Nc8bVcJ:conservative.nationstates.net/nation%3Dbellepsia+The+Queendom+of+Bellepsia

21 days ago: Bellepsia was ejected from The Federation of Kievan Rus by The Holy Empire of Thatcherton.

As I said in TG, thank you for the links. This is the sort of thing The Wreaker should have brought in the original proposal.

To post a counter:

http://web.archive.org/web/201106210112 ... kievan_rus

Conveniently, the only save of the region is from just before the ejections. As you can see there are 10 nations including Thatcherton. This whole time we've been told that region went from 14 to 1 nation because of Thatcherton. This obviously wasn't true. The founder ejected puppets as can be seen on the RMB of June 21. So at best, Thatcherton ejected 9 nations.

It's this sort of fuzzy argument that bothers me about this Condemnation. "Oh he's a REGION DESTROYER" we're told. But nothing is presented until the vote is almost over and the numbers keep changing. We're supposed to just take that claim as gospel because who would possibly support a region destroyer? If the person condemning (Wreaker) can't stick to a story, then why should we believe the one presented? We have direct proof that Thatcherton ejected two nations. We have no testimonies from the other natives as to why or if he ejected more.

When it's all said and done, at best, we're condemning a nation because he (possibly) ejected 9 nations for reasons unknown. Does that make sense to anyone else?

[Dinkamana]

I'm more skilled at using search engines than at posting links, so hopefully this is OK. (The google cache links are quite long, so I've put them in the spoilers.)

Google cache from June 21
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com//search?q=cache:ZJMJFbbx7jcJ:m.nationstates.net/page%3Ddisplay_region/region%3Dthe%2520Rejected%2520Realms/start%3D970

Proof that it was Thatcherton
1. (from the Most Recent Government Activity of Ambassador of the GA to FKR)
2.

Google cache from July 13
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bwcD1Nc8bVcJ:conservative.nationstates.net/nation%3Dbellepsia+The+Queendom+of+Bellepsia

As I said in TG, thank you for the links. This is the sort of thing The Wreaker should have brought in the original proposal.

To post a counter:

http://web.archive.org/web/201106210112 ... kievan_rus

Conveniently, the only save of the region is from just before the ejections. As you can see there are 10 nations including Thatcherton. This whole time we've been told that region went from 14 to 1 nation because of Thatcherton. This obviously wasn't true. The founder ejected puppets as can be seen on the RMB of June 21. So at best, Thatcherton ejected 9 nations.

It's this sort of fuzzy argument that bothers me about this Condemnation. "Oh he's a REGION DESTROYER" we're told. But nothing is presented until the vote is almost over and the numbers keep changing. We're supposed to just take that claim as gospel because who would possibly support a region destroyer? If the person condemning (Wreaker) can't stick to a story, then why should we believe the one presented? We have direct proof that Thatcherton ejected two nations. We have no testimonies from the other natives as to why or if he ejected more.

When it's all said and done, at best, we're condemning a nation because he (possibly) ejected 9 nations for reasons unknown. Does that make sense to anyone else?

Either way a region was destroyed by Thatcherton. If you look at Wreakers proof, it shows that the region went from 14 nations, to 10, then to 14 again, then to 1. So it seems Thatcherton did eject 14 nations and destroyed a region

[Revert]

As I said in TG, thank you for the links. This is the sort of thing The Wreaker should have brought in the original proposal.

To post a counter:

http://web.archive.org/web/201106210112 ... kievan_rus

Conveniently, the only save of the region is from just before the ejections. As you can see there are 10 nations including Thatcherton. This whole time we've been told that region went from 14 to 1 nation because of Thatcherton. This obviously wasn't true. The founder ejected puppets as can be seen on the RMB of June 21. So at best, Thatcherton ejected 9 nations.

It's this sort of fuzzy argument that bothers me about this Condemnation. "Oh he's a REGION DESTROYER" we're told. But nothing is presented until the vote is almost over and the numbers keep changing. We're supposed to just take that claim as gospel because who would possibly support a region destroyer? If the person condemning (Wreaker) can't stick to a story, then why should we believe the one presented? We have direct proof that Thatcherton ejected two nations. We have no testimonies from the other natives as to why or if he ejected more.

When it's all said and done, at best, we're condemning a nation because he (possibly) ejected 9 nations for reasons unknown. Does that make sense to anyone else?

Either way a region was destroyed by Thatcherton. If you look at Wreakers proof, it shows that the region went from 14 nations, to 10, then to 14 again, then to 1. So it seems Thatcherton did eject 14 nations and destroyed a region

No, it doesn't. As I said in my post, it went from 14 to 10 because of the founder ejecting 4 puppets. That screen capture from June 21st (the day of the ejecting) has the nation count at 10, not 14. At worst, Thatcherton ejected 9 nations. We only have a log of two of those.

Supposedly ejecting 9 nations is extremely poor grounds for a Condemnation.

[The Wreaking]

I thank the honorable World Assembly for bringing me justice. *bows*

[A mean old man]

*Shakes fist.*
You haven't seen the last of me!
*Dramatic departure from the WASC hall.*

[Slivary]

Regan Lindson the Slivarian Delegate to the WA stood up collected a few files and left the SC chamber and he thought to himself "all's well that ends well." Tomrrow he would return to cast his vote for the new SC propasal.

[Osthia]

The Commonwealth of Crowns does NOT recognize this unjust legislation.

[A mean old man]

The Commonwealth of Crowns does NOT recognize this unjust legislation.

I don't think of it as "unjust" - it's mainly unfounded and unnecessary.

[Osthia]

The Commonwealth of Crowns does NOT recognize this unjust legislation.

I don't think of it as "unjust" - it's mainly unfounded and unnecessary.

Shh, let me have my moment of drama

[Wiendonia]

The Commonwealth of Crowns does NOT recognize this unjust legislation.

Well you got to live with it now. If you don't wanna. Follow the WA you can always resign.

[A mean old man]

Well you got to live with it now. If you don't wanna. Follow the WA you can always resign.

That's more of a GA thing.