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[PASSED] Condemn Punk Reloaded

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A mean old man
Senator
 
Posts: 4386
Founded: Jun 27, 2008
Father Knows Best State

Postby A mean old man » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:55 pm

Laderhig wrote:Proper Francoist Thought advocates against having rigidly defined constitutions or laws, stressing the importance of flexibility and law developed through precedent. (Internal Policy- 1st Paragraph)

To this end there must be no legislation that can be exploited and used against the Pacific in a damaging fashion....This will allow the Pacific to enforce the spirit of the revolution and the laws that it brought, rather than the letter.


So to suggest laws have not been followed to the letter, especially if the people are apathetic is a bit unkind. It is also better to be do something then refine it then to wither waiting for approval first.


You quote this passage of "Proper Francoist Thought" completely out of context – the text does not endorse bending the rules or taking artistic license with the interpretation of one's own laws - it states that laws which can be abused to be used against the region in a damaging fashion simply should not exist. Such laws have been enacted by Punk Reloaded when he created them in the West and set them in motion with his Constitution.

In The Pacific, we take our rules and laws very seriously. Those in the region who violate the Civil Code are removed. The Delegate does not violate the Civil Code as he is its sworn protector and does not bend the rules in his activities because he is placed in a position of near omnipotence by them. Also, our system and NPO-based “lineage” makes it nearly impossible for one who might not respect the position of Delegate and prime steward of the region to obtain such a powerful position. There is very little room for error, and laws that are unnecessary and would choke regional activity and create openings for the abuse of the government by selfish and/or foreign forces simply do not exist.

To talk about democracy. I refer to section (Dictatorship of the Feederites)

The only way to accomplish this is to initially set up a very stong central and close-nit government based on loyalty to the cause and competence in a specific field – be that Intelligence, security, politics or defence – and at this point, the Pacific very much becomes a class based meritocracy.


Punk Daddy has the best of The West Pacific at heart. That is proven from years of service in The West Pacific. This is what is important, more so than any numbers about this or that which has been brandied about in arguments here. PD's appointments of Ministers are based on who he knows is most loyal and effective for the job -whatever the specific constitutional arrangements were. To do otherwise, is to betray the spirit of the laws for the letter.


This is more a matter of opinion than a fact set in stone. I can’t imagine Krulltopia would ever appoint anyone who wasn’t a member of the Party of the Pacific to a governmental position in our region. Also, your statement about having “the best of The West Pacific at heart” proven by “years of service” can also be entirely disproven; simply look at the examples of those regional politicians like JAL and Czech Mate. Both spent years in their home regions but harbored ancient grudges against them, and both, particularly Czech Mate, could be considered to have contributed great services to their regions at times. However, both ultimately turned on their homes: JAL, who usurped the position of delegate in The North Pacific and made a half-assed attempt to establish a new government in the region (which collapsed very quickly) and Czech Mate, who, once Eastern Europe’s liberation was repealed, tore the whole region apart. “Years of service” do not prove someone to have the best interests of their own region at heart.

On apathy, I turn to Nationstates News Service's interview with Krulltopia. It was acknowledged that most nations in feeders don't care about what happens, and activity either happens or not -you can't really try and force it. The best we could do for them is to continue doing our own thing for them to join in if interested, and to provide stability so their own ways of playing (elsewhere) aren't interrupted.


I can’t quite see how going to war with another region, even if that “war” is comprised only of petty attempts to disrupt the region and to dismantle its government, promotes stability both abroad and at home. It seems to me such reckless behavior could only lead to the eventual disruption of positive activity within the feeders (and within the aggressing feeder), and that establishing a poorly enforced Constitution could lead to the eventual disruption of these people as well.

If this is the case, accusations of TWP's own inactivity for unwarranted, because it is something beyond our control. Our stability is represented by the highest endorsement or all feeders and good watchers; no one will be couping The West Pacific any time soon. We have done our duty. The South Pacific's "old regime" of Southern Bellz however, was not only inactive but neglected their security enough to be taken advantage of by foreign powers, with adspam dominating the RMB and eventually the delegacy being taken by Dev. Inability to provide stability is a crime against the basic tenets of Francoism, and ought to be condemned. That our delegate only abstained on the actual vote was a compromise between the voices on our forums, and these principles.


I don’t consider the statement that TWP is inactive to be an “accusation.” It happens to every feeder. It is what the current regime has done during this particular period of inactivity which takes advantage of the period of inactivity that I find unpleasant. The statement regarding Punk Reloaded’s inactivity can be interpreted as an accusation, however, and like I said: Punk took the easy way out. Declaring war for no reason and thus creating the illusion of being an active and constructive delegate is far easier than actually hunkering down, addressing, and fixing the problems in one’s own region without any kind of motivator that comes at others’ expenses. TSP did the latter when addressing its own inactivity. Far more impressive than Punk’s cop-out, if you ask me.

As for our war with TSP, it is correct that the old regime must go. For they have failed to provide stability, we must encourage someone else to step up who can, someone who can raise their own class consciousness and create their identity. Someone who makes sure they won't be couped. Someone who won't be subjugated to adspam to stops nations from going about their business. Someone who'll stand up for Feeders against the Userites. It is our responsibility as a fellow Feeders to do this.


The South Pacific’s invasion was a stroke of bad luck. While one can argue that SB should not have been inactive for the period of time during which Sedge quickly and stealthily took over the region, such an event could just as easily happen during a random period of inactivity within another feeder region if committed by a calculating and well-supported individual or group. The Pacific’s delegate and populace collectively are extremely vigilant and aware of their surroundings and our methods of preventing such occurrences are extremely strict compared to those of other feeders. TP has yet to experience such a setback; however, such things have happened often in the feeders which are less obsessively watchful and/or which maintain less stringent policies.

I’m also not sure what you mean by the “old regime.” Topid, the current delegate of TSP, can hardly be considered part of any ancient clan of TSPers, however Punk Reloaded and his TWP seems to consider him part of this collective TSP-bound enemy. I also don’t think it is TWP’s place to declare war on TSP in the interest of getting the region to change – that’s not really how it works. If TWP had wanted to see improvement in TSP they should have gotten involved more actively there in a helpful fashion rather than simply yelled at them in hopes that that would come of some good somehow.

Though let me say I am not completely blind by acknowledging the execution had it's flaws. While Francoism support Feeders encouraging other Feeders to develop Feeder pride, it did warn us to not "alienate the masses of the host Pacific" (External Policy, 1st paragraph). Our declaration did state it was only against the "old regime", but perhaps they way it was portrayed made us villains to the masses there as well.


The RMB-related bullshit didn’t help in that area. :P

Finally I admit to not paying much attention to the Republic, only that when it was first introduced the criticism all round as that we were oppressing them under The West Pacific (and there is nothing wrong for a Feeder to be oppressing Userites.. but that's another topic). Now they are saying we are losing our sovereignty to them! The truth I suppose is that most of it is still vague and undefined, and eventually it'll lead to something for mutual benefit.


The fact that more foreigners have control over who is to become the next delegate of TWP than do domestic entities – unless Punk Reloaded decides to appoint his own replacement and break his own rules once again, which he seemed to be planning to do before he renounced his statement that he would be retiring – hardly seems to me to be an oppression of a foreign force. It seems to be handing the fate of TWP over to them, since they are collectively a majority compared to the representation of TWP in this “Republic.”

…and PD, please … your actions aren’t cool enough to dub you “EVIL.”
They’re just lame.
A: SC#16 - Repeal "Liberate The Security Council"
A: SC#26 - Commend The Joint Systems Alliance
A: SC#30 - Commend 10000 Islands
A: SC#37 - Condemn NAZI EUROPE
A: SC#38 - Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE"
A: GA#149 - On Expiration Dates
C: SC#58 - Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"
A: SC#62 - Repeal "Condemn Swarmlandia"
C: SC#63 - Commend Ballotonia
A: SC#65 - Condemn Punk Reloaded
C: GA#163 - Repeal "Law of the Sea"
A: SC#72 - Repeal "Commend Mikeswill"
C: SC#74 - Condemn Lone Wolves United
C: SC#76 - Repeal "Condemn Thatcherton"
A: SC#81 - Repeal "Condemn Anthony Delasanta"
C: SC#83 - Condemn Automagfreek
C: SC#84 - Repeal "Liberate Islam"
C: SC#111 - Commend Krulltopia ← please forget

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Limitless Events
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Feb 02, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Limitless Events » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:55 pm

Alright, I've been meaning to post here again but I've been busy so here comes another wall of text.

are those reasons why people should condemn me and/or other government officials or are those just your problems with the current government? I'm not sure the relevance with respect to this condemnation. And if this is part of the reason you believe I should be condemned I hope you voted to condemn SB as her 'government' was far more inactive than TWP's government has been under my direction. That would lend credence to your concerns, in my opinion. Otherwise, I'd more just think that because you did not agree with the move to the Republic you're trying to say I'm condemnable because of your disagreement and not necessarily commiting an evil act.


They're issues that highlight how you've done nothing to help TWP ever since this constitution was put in place. You called for it as a way to increase activity and it did for about a month and things ended up back at square one except now elections aren't even being held and when you do step down foreign regions will have a strong say in who it is to replace you which is actually a step backward from where you started under the old constitution.

Jeux II told me there was a different reason why he was ejected than the one you're representing. And what you're also leaving out is Europe is a significantly large region who, of their own accord, joined us. If you are correct and Jeux II went all 'rogue' and requested to join us by himself, should he be condemned? I didn't install a constitution by myself yet you seem to think following the established rules is condemnable so i hope there'd be consistency if your facts are correct.


EuroFounder posted the following on Europe's RMB after Jeux was ejected:

Jeux II has been found to have been negotiating intraregional treaties going beyond the scope of simple embassies without consulting either the founder or the nations of Europe. This activity is a direct undermining of the authority of the Founder and of Europe's neutrality. For this reason, Jeux II has been deemed to be an unfit delegate.

and
Jeux II had unilaterally signed us up to some organisation called 'The Republic'. Their constitution contained numerous articles that would require us to answer to them. The nations of Europe answer to nobody but themselves, and we can't have a delegate who goes off doing things like this without asking anyone.


From these messages it is obvious that Jeux applied Europe to the Republic by himself without informing the members of his region or the founder. There is no need for him to be condemned as he was removed from power and made no moves to take power there again or encourage nations there to push for membership.

As for following the rules being condemnable, there were no rules regarding replacing the old constitution and the current one has rules that no one can follow as they'd be breaking other rules set forth in it. In fact, you announced a round-about way of electing a successor to you as the current constitution lists 2 different ways delegate elections are held should you not name one.

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Punk Reloaded
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Posts: 450
Founded: May 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Punk Reloaded » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:15 pm

Limi,

The above just makes my point about your comments. There had to be something enticing about the Republic for Jeux II to want to join us? Region, Inc just became a member. There are other regions that are not of the 5 member variety joining.

I've been the mouthpiece but Enlightened Defenders has done ALL of the recruiting with minor help from me. But, we've offered these regions something different. EDIT - we're averaging about 2-3 region apps per month. Once again, your rhetoric doesn't meet with what's going on.

This week we'll be holding a convention to see if we can strengthen our bonds and become a significant force. I know you don't like the concept of the Republic but I'm not disappointed with how things have gone.Just wish we had approved the constitution now instead of the spring. The Summer Lull hit us hard.
Last edited by Punk Reloaded on Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Former Delegate of The West Pacific
Former Foreign Affairs Minister, The West Pacific

Punk Reloaded - Retired
Big D Baby - Retired
Punk Daddy - Citizen of TSP

In TWP, we go Commando. - Darkesia

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Slovetcia
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Posts: 24
Founded: Jul 30, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Slovetcia » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:19 pm

We hope the resolution passes quickly; the punishment should be swift and just!
The first principle of a free society is an untrammeled flow of words in an open forum.

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Punk Reloaded
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Posts: 450
Founded: May 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Punk Reloaded » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:43 pm

Slovetcia wrote:We hope the resolution passes quickly; the punishment should be swift and just!

Goes and stands in a corner.

Bad punky, bad, bad punky.

:p
Former Delegate of The West Pacific
Former Foreign Affairs Minister, The West Pacific

Punk Reloaded - Retired
Big D Baby - Retired
Punk Daddy - Citizen of TSP

In TWP, we go Commando. - Darkesia

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Ballotonia
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Posts: 5494
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ballotonia » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:16 am

A mean old man wrote:…and PD, please … your actions aren’t cool enough to dub you “EVIL.”
They’re just lame.


Considering PD's defense of his actions and the (partly flawed) wording of the resolution proposed, I'll have to conceed a Condemnation may be too much.

Hence: AGAINST

Ballotonia
"Een volk dat voor tirannen zwicht zal meer dan lijf en goed verliezen, dan dooft het licht…" -- H.M. van Randwijk

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Parti Ouvrier
Minister
 
Posts: 2806
Founded: Aug 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Parti Ouvrier » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:18 am

A mean old man wrote:
BELIEVING Punk Reloaded to be a dangerous influence in The West Pacific and an enemy of peace and justice within the entire world,



Somewhat hypocritical of the author to suggest Punk Reloaded is an enemy of peace and justice within the entire world but, anyway, that's another debate - (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=131345)
I believe this resolution is worth supporting despite an overly long sentence near the end, (after, 'TROUBLED').

Ambassador to the DRPO
Pat Baker
For a voluntary Socialist democratic republic of England, Scotland, Wales and a United Socialist Democratic Federal Republic of Ireland in a United Socialist Europe.
Leave Nato - abolish trident, abolish presidential monarchies (directly elected presidents) and presidential Prime Ministers

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Soviet Socialist Moldavia
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Posts: 18
Founded: Aug 06, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Soviet Socialist Moldavia » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:15 am

A mean old man wrote:More info coming soon...

The World Assembly,

ACKNOWLEDGING with regret the chaos which erupted within the Pacifics several months ago as a result of [nation=short+noflag]Sedgistan[/nation]'s takeover of The South Pacific and as a result of the ensuing conflict between The West Pacific and The South Pacific,

RECOGNIZING [nation=short+noflag]Punk Reloaded[/nation] as the renegade delegate of The West Pacific,

NOTING that, soon before the takeover in The South Pacific, Punk Reloaded noted the threat of a mutiny by the old guard of The West Pacific, which was angered by Punk Reloaded's inactivity and wished to replace the delegate,

FURTHER NOTING that Punk Reloaded's unnecessary response to this threat was to declare war on The South Pacific rather than to make improvements to conditions within The West Pacific, claiming that the war was part of The West Pacific's crusade on "inactivity" while Punk Reloaded was merely attempting to avoid the consequences of being an inactive delegate within its home region,

ACKNOWLEDGING this war with The South Pacific as a totally unwarranted action against a damaged region and noting that Punk Reloaded's West Pacific has used various duplicitous tactics in its attacks on The South Pacific, including but not limited to:
--- attempts to lobby WA members within The South Pacific to withdraw endorsements from their delegate in order to destabilize the region and incite conflict within it,
--- the failed attempt to use lies and contortions of the truth to condemn the former delegate of The South Pacific, [nation=short+noflag]Southern Bellz[/nation], the rightful and fairly elected delegate of the region,

WITNESSING Punk Reloaded's recent termination of the cease-fire between The West Pacific and The South Pacific and further witnessing the delegate's sudden retraction of its formally announced intentions to resign from its position,

TROUBLED by Punk Reloaded's questionable actions within The West Pacific, such as:
--- the delegate's suppression of the popular vote on the condemnation of Southern Bellz when the majority of the WA voters in The West Pacific's forums maintained a firm position AGAINST the condemnation for over 6 days and during which Punk Reloaded ignored these voters and chose to ABSTAIN (and later chose to manipulate the WA vote with an anonymous poll added long after the TWP voters had responded to the condemnation publicly),
--- the replacement of The West Pacific's Constitution with the delegate's own version, which was riddled with errors and enacted without even a 2/3 majority vote of The West Pacific's Regional Assembly,
--- the delegate's appointment of governmental officers, such as the region's Minister of Defense, without these officers meeting the requirements specified in Punk Reloaded's own Constitution of The West Pacific,
--- the delegate's establishment of The West Pacific's "Republic," a body which is a great affront to Pacific sovereignty and which is comprised of many representatives from foreign regions which maintain great influence over the workings of The West Pacific's government,
--- the delegate's disregard for the election of other governmental officials, such as the New Member Coordinator,

BELIEVING Punk Reloaded to be a dangerous influence in The West Pacific and an enemy of peace and justice within the entire world,

HEREBY CONDEMNS Punk Reloaded.



I would also like to note that it could be a good idea to give all the facts in one document (links, references, etc.). Members of the World Assembly should not run on the all forum for searching an additional info. You, as the initiator of this document should take care of it.
You can know more about our country by visiting the website http://rssm.weebly.com.

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VictorUnus
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Jun 07, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby VictorUnus » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:15 am

Personally my nation has had lots of growth under punk reloaded im for him staying in power and will oppose otherwise....
If i must ill arm my nation and make true of my stance.. If theres no proof of him acting in a malice way then it shouldnt be brought before this council.......

[proposal=]Withdraw the condemnation or at least bring someone fresh into the politics of representation who would represent the masses better[/proposal]

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A mean old man
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Posts: 4386
Founded: Jun 27, 2008
Father Knows Best State

Postby A mean old man » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:07 am

Ballotonia wrote:Considering PD's defense of his actions and the (partly flawed) wording of the resolution proposed, I'll have to conceed a Condemnation may be too much.

Hence: AGAINST

Ballotonia


I still don't see how it is flawed. If you're addressing the 2/3 vote thing, then I think I've already defended that appropriately.
A: SC#16 - Repeal "Liberate The Security Council"
A: SC#26 - Commend The Joint Systems Alliance
A: SC#30 - Commend 10000 Islands
A: SC#37 - Condemn NAZI EUROPE
A: SC#38 - Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE"
A: GA#149 - On Expiration Dates
C: SC#58 - Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"
A: SC#62 - Repeal "Condemn Swarmlandia"
C: SC#63 - Commend Ballotonia
A: SC#65 - Condemn Punk Reloaded
C: GA#163 - Repeal "Law of the Sea"
A: SC#72 - Repeal "Commend Mikeswill"
C: SC#74 - Condemn Lone Wolves United
C: SC#76 - Repeal "Condemn Thatcherton"
A: SC#81 - Repeal "Condemn Anthony Delasanta"
C: SC#83 - Condemn Automagfreek
C: SC#84 - Repeal "Liberate Islam"
C: SC#111 - Commend Krulltopia ← please forget

User avatar
Celestial Sphere
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 61
Founded: Nov 23, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Celestial Sphere » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:19 am

A mean old man wrote:…and PD, please … your actions aren’t cool enough to dub you “EVIL.”
They’re just lame.

We are disappointed to see a once well-respected author reduced to condemning nations for being "lame".
The Mostly Serene Republic of Celestial Sphere

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A mean old man
Senator
 
Posts: 4386
Founded: Jun 27, 2008
Father Knows Best State

Postby A mean old man » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:23 am

Celestial Sphere wrote:We are disappointed to see a once well-respected author reduced to condemning nations for being "lame".


Oh, gee, apparently I'm not well-respected anymore. :roll:
Pardon me for rebutting PD's absurd "face of evil" comments, Mr. non-WA, inactive puppet.
I didn't know they were worthy of more of a response that repeated all of the offenses which PD had committed and why they caused great damage to what was around him through their incredible, outstanding mediocrity.
Seriously, people, comment on the fucking text and stop telling me off for stupid shit.
A: SC#16 - Repeal "Liberate The Security Council"
A: SC#26 - Commend The Joint Systems Alliance
A: SC#30 - Commend 10000 Islands
A: SC#37 - Condemn NAZI EUROPE
A: SC#38 - Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE"
A: GA#149 - On Expiration Dates
C: SC#58 - Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"
A: SC#62 - Repeal "Condemn Swarmlandia"
C: SC#63 - Commend Ballotonia
A: SC#65 - Condemn Punk Reloaded
C: GA#163 - Repeal "Law of the Sea"
A: SC#72 - Repeal "Commend Mikeswill"
C: SC#74 - Condemn Lone Wolves United
C: SC#76 - Repeal "Condemn Thatcherton"
A: SC#81 - Repeal "Condemn Anthony Delasanta"
C: SC#83 - Condemn Automagfreek
C: SC#84 - Repeal "Liberate Islam"
C: SC#111 - Commend Krulltopia ← please forget

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A mean old man
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Posts: 4386
Founded: Jun 27, 2008
Father Knows Best State

Postby A mean old man » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:25 am

Soviet Socialist Moldavia wrote: I would also like to note that it could be a good idea to give all the facts in one document (links, references, etc.). Members of the World Assembly should not run on the all forum for searching an additional info. You, as the initiator of this document should take care of it.


All the facts are given in one document. It's the one you quoted.
As I said here:

A mean old man wrote:Limitless Events was a former, loyal resident of The West Pacific who was compelled to leave the region thanks to Punk Reloaded's failures. You can ask him to confirm all of this for you. Also, all you need do to confirm most of the rest is observe the forums of both of the regions.

As I am a resident of The Pacific and have been heavily involved in feeder politics for the past year, I simply know most of this by word of mouth, casual observation of forum activity, and personal experience, and it is very difficult to cite such things.


Also you could read all the conversation between people who have been actively involved in this entire conflict since it began in the pages of this thread.
Last edited by A mean old man on Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
A: SC#16 - Repeal "Liberate The Security Council"
A: SC#26 - Commend The Joint Systems Alliance
A: SC#30 - Commend 10000 Islands
A: SC#37 - Condemn NAZI EUROPE
A: SC#38 - Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE"
A: GA#149 - On Expiration Dates
C: SC#58 - Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"
A: SC#62 - Repeal "Condemn Swarmlandia"
C: SC#63 - Commend Ballotonia
A: SC#65 - Condemn Punk Reloaded
C: GA#163 - Repeal "Law of the Sea"
A: SC#72 - Repeal "Commend Mikeswill"
C: SC#74 - Condemn Lone Wolves United
C: SC#76 - Repeal "Condemn Thatcherton"
A: SC#81 - Repeal "Condemn Anthony Delasanta"
C: SC#83 - Condemn Automagfreek
C: SC#84 - Repeal "Liberate Islam"
C: SC#111 - Commend Krulltopia ← please forget

User avatar
Southern Bellz
Diplomat
 
Posts: 633
Founded: Oct 04, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Southern Bellz » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:27 am

Ballotonia wrote:
A mean old man wrote:…and PD, please … your actions aren’t cool enough to dub you “EVIL.”
They’re just lame.


Considering PD's defense of his actions and the (partly flawed) wording of the resolution proposed, I'll have to conceed a Condemnation may be too much.

Hence: AGAINST

Ballotonia


PD 'defense' is laughable. His reason to declare war on TSP is to cure our inactivity woes, when in reality what he was doing was shifiting the blame off of his inactivity by taking advantage of our region. His 'cease' fire terms were basically temporary agreements that had conditions TSP had to prove with TWP and it took HEM hours to come up with a temporary solution. Punk D then comes into TSP after making a passive aggressive post about resuming the hostilities with TSP. After I call him on his BS he declares war again on TSP.

Punk D isn't the only problem the TSP government is dealing with. We have been threatened twice by a guy who hides behind a network of puppets, and we are in the process of rebuilding our government. The West Pacific under Punk Daddy has no right to dictate how The South Pacific should be ran. He declared war on a happy, peaceful, neutral region and you are going to give him a pass?

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A mean old man
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Posts: 4386
Founded: Jun 27, 2008
Father Knows Best State

Postby A mean old man » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:38 am

Parti Ouvrier wrote:Somewhat hypocritical of the author to suggest Punk Reloaded is an enemy of peace and justice within the entire world but, anyway, that's another debate - (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=131345)
I believe this resolution is worth supporting despite an overly long sentence near the end, (after, 'TROUBLED').

Ambassador to the DRPO
Pat Baker


You can't connect the GA or the world of RP to the world of gameplay.
A: SC#16 - Repeal "Liberate The Security Council"
A: SC#26 - Commend The Joint Systems Alliance
A: SC#30 - Commend 10000 Islands
A: SC#37 - Condemn NAZI EUROPE
A: SC#38 - Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE"
A: GA#149 - On Expiration Dates
C: SC#58 - Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"
A: SC#62 - Repeal "Condemn Swarmlandia"
C: SC#63 - Commend Ballotonia
A: SC#65 - Condemn Punk Reloaded
C: GA#163 - Repeal "Law of the Sea"
A: SC#72 - Repeal "Commend Mikeswill"
C: SC#74 - Condemn Lone Wolves United
C: SC#76 - Repeal "Condemn Thatcherton"
A: SC#81 - Repeal "Condemn Anthony Delasanta"
C: SC#83 - Condemn Automagfreek
C: SC#84 - Repeal "Liberate Islam"
C: SC#111 - Commend Krulltopia ← please forget

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Punk Reloaded
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 450
Founded: May 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Punk Reloaded » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:39 am

Oh bellz...revisionist history is fun, right?

Your region was inactive. Specifically, YOU were inactive.

You allowed it to be couped.

Any arguments? :)

Didn't think so. The West decided that going back to the inactive past was not something we wanted to see. Be mad that we inserted ourselves in your internal conflict, sure, but be mad for the right reasons. There are some of you in this NS diaspora who seem to think that when I say something I don't mean it. I meant the reasons for war then and now.

If you think that makes me a meanie or lame or anything in between, fine. But, at least be mad for something that's true not a construct of your own imagination.

I intend to make public attempts at peace so that you and others like you will have no claim to the contrary as you have tried.

...And AMOM - I was just about to make the same point about being 'lame'. It is a bit ironic.
Former Delegate of The West Pacific
Former Foreign Affairs Minister, The West Pacific

Punk Reloaded - Retired
Big D Baby - Retired
Punk Daddy - Citizen of TSP

In TWP, we go Commando. - Darkesia

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Celestial Sphere
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 61
Founded: Nov 23, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Celestial Sphere » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:42 am

A mean old man wrote:Pardon me for rebutting PD's absurd "face of evil" comments, Mr. non-WA, inactive puppet.
I didn't know they were worthy of more of a response that repeated all of the offenses which PD had committed and why they caused great damage to what was around him through their incredible, outstanding mediocrity.

And now it seems that we are being asked to condemn a nation for being mediocre. Punk Reloaded has not been an outstanding delegate and The West Pacific has suffered as a result. This is little different to many other feeders, including The South Pacific, The North Pacific and your own, The Pacific. Would you support condemnations of the mediocre delegates that have let them down too? If not, we can only conclude that the motivation for this condemnation is personal dislike.

Punk Reloaded's actions have had little result besides a trifling argument with The South Pacific, which actually helped to shake said region out of its torpor.
The Mostly Serene Republic of Celestial Sphere

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A mean old man
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Founded: Jun 27, 2008
Father Knows Best State

Postby A mean old man » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:44 am

Mr. Puppet, if you would like to belittle the business of the feeders and pretend that PR's actions have not had any lasting impact, then go ahead. I'm not interested in arguing with you just because you'd like to argue with me.
A: SC#16 - Repeal "Liberate The Security Council"
A: SC#26 - Commend The Joint Systems Alliance
A: SC#30 - Commend 10000 Islands
A: SC#37 - Condemn NAZI EUROPE
A: SC#38 - Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE"
A: GA#149 - On Expiration Dates
C: SC#58 - Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"
A: SC#62 - Repeal "Condemn Swarmlandia"
C: SC#63 - Commend Ballotonia
A: SC#65 - Condemn Punk Reloaded
C: GA#163 - Repeal "Law of the Sea"
A: SC#72 - Repeal "Commend Mikeswill"
C: SC#74 - Condemn Lone Wolves United
C: SC#76 - Repeal "Condemn Thatcherton"
A: SC#81 - Repeal "Condemn Anthony Delasanta"
C: SC#83 - Condemn Automagfreek
C: SC#84 - Repeal "Liberate Islam"
C: SC#111 - Commend Krulltopia ← please forget

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Ballotonia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ballotonia » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:52 am

Southern Bellz wrote:He declared war on a happy, peaceful, neutral region and you are going to give him a pass?


PD is guilty of declaring war without good reason, that's established easy enough. But there's far more here than just that. Surely you don't think a war declaration in and of itself is sufficient to pass a Condemnation?!? I don't.

Don't get me wrong, PD isn't a jolly friendly nation at all, and has caused quite some damage. I just think that considering PD's defense there's reasonable doubt about some of the clauses. PD has convinced me that the contents of this Condemnation isn't what a good Condemnation should be.

EDIT: yes, PD is a crappy delegate, which doesn't ever have the region's interest at heart at all. But that's not Condemnation-worthy IMHO.

Ballotonia
Last edited by Ballotonia on Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Een volk dat voor tirannen zwicht zal meer dan lijf en goed verliezen, dan dooft het licht…" -- H.M. van Randwijk

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Celestial Sphere
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Founded: Nov 23, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Celestial Sphere » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:54 am

A mean old man wrote:Mr. Puppet, if you would like to belittle the business of the feeders and pretend that PR's actions have not had any lasting impact, then go ahead. I'm not interested in arguing with you just because you'd like to argue with me.

In which case, you have disappointed us. We are not "pretending" anything and if you think that is the case, please explain. We were under the impression this was a debate thread.
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Father Knows Best State

Postby A mean old man » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:59 am

Celestial Sphere wrote:In which case, you have disappointed us. We are not "pretending" anything and if you think that is the case, please explain. We were under the impression this was a debate thread.


Yeah, it's a debate thread. And I'm here to debate the text of this resolution which I wrote, not to argue over stupid bullshit like whether or not Punk is lame. That was probably worth about one response, not the twenty that you seem to be interested in dragging it into.
A: SC#16 - Repeal "Liberate The Security Council"
A: SC#26 - Commend The Joint Systems Alliance
A: SC#30 - Commend 10000 Islands
A: SC#37 - Condemn NAZI EUROPE
A: SC#38 - Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE"
A: GA#149 - On Expiration Dates
C: SC#58 - Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"
A: SC#62 - Repeal "Condemn Swarmlandia"
C: SC#63 - Commend Ballotonia
A: SC#65 - Condemn Punk Reloaded
C: GA#163 - Repeal "Law of the Sea"
A: SC#72 - Repeal "Commend Mikeswill"
C: SC#74 - Condemn Lone Wolves United
C: SC#76 - Repeal "Condemn Thatcherton"
A: SC#81 - Repeal "Condemn Anthony Delasanta"
C: SC#83 - Condemn Automagfreek
C: SC#84 - Repeal "Liberate Islam"
C: SC#111 - Commend Krulltopia ← please forget

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Southern Bellz
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Founded: Oct 04, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Southern Bellz » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:04 am

Ballotonia wrote:
Southern Bellz wrote:He declared war on a happy, peaceful, neutral region and you are going to give him a pass?


PD is guilty of declaring war without good reason, that's established easy enough. But there's far more here than just that. Surely you don't think a war declaration in and of itself is sufficient to pass a Condemnation?!? I don't.

Don't get me wrong, PD isn't a jolly friendly nation at all, and has caused quite some damage. I just think that considering PD's defense there's reasonable doubt about some of the clauses. PD has convinced me that the contents of this Condemnation isn't what a good Condemnation should be.

EDIT: yes, PD is a crappy delegate, which doesn't ever have the region's interest at heart at all. But that's not Condemnation-worthy IMHO.

Ballotonia


He has been trying to bully my region for a few months now. You might be removed from this conflict, but when you are dealing with a region that is rebuilding and reforming, while being threatened from other groups, and then PD demands attention, threatened war, declares war. I do think it is worthy of a condemnation. He is trying to use force to justify his really horrible ideas.

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Celestial Sphere
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Founded: Nov 23, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Celestial Sphere » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:13 am

A mean old man wrote:Yeah, it's a debate thread. And I'm here to debate the text of this resolution which I wrote, not to argue over stupid bullshit like whether or not Punk is lame. That was probably worth about one response, not the twenty that you seem to be interested in dragging it into.

We are also allowed to reply to the statements you make here. You were the one who called Punk Reloaded "lame" and "mediocre". If you bring these points up in a debate thread as reasons to condemn the nation, then others are entitled to comment on those claims. Our comments are on-topic and relevant.

We actually agree with you here, as Punk Reloaded has been a mediocre delegate. Unlike you, we do not view this as reason to condemn. This proposal appears to have been motivated by personal dislike of Punk Reloaded, with the result that a collection of petty, misleading, and innacurate reasons have been mashed into a proposal. Your motivations help us to understand the text of the proposal, which is why they are being questioned.
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A mean old man
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Founded: Jun 27, 2008
Father Knows Best State

Postby A mean old man » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:26 am

Celestial Sphere wrote:We are also allowed to reply to the statements you make here. You were the one who called Punk Reloaded "lame" and "mediocre". If you bring these points up in a debate thread as reasons to condemn the nation, then others are entitled to comment on those claims. Our comments are on-topic and relevant.

We actually agree with you here, as Punk Reloaded has been a mediocre delegate. Unlike you, we do not view this as reason to condemn. This proposal appears to have been motivated by personal dislike of Punk Reloaded, with the result that a collection of petty, misleading, and innacurate reasons have been mashed into a proposal. Your motivations help us to understand the text of the proposal, which is why they are being questioned.


I take absolutely none of those accusations seriously because you don't actually address any of the resolution's text and explain why you believe it to be "petty, misleading, and inaccurate." I hope you understand that I get angry when I see people focusing on stupid little details of the conversation and expecting to make some kind of end-all argument out of them when there are those of us focusing on every detail of the resolution and the occurrences in TSP and TWP and writing posts that go into great length and depth on them. Hell, even PR and certain members of the opposition have been putting forth some long and detailed responses here (though I still believe some of them are lacking and I have made certain points that I wish PR would address in detail), and the serious material in those I can respond to as if I was actually in a normal debate.

But your responses are focusing on nothing. The only thing you attack is my brief comment, and I already made my response to that attack; Punk's mediocrity has been vastly destructive and I think I outline that well in the resolution.

I think we're done here, unless you actually have something to say on the resolution rather than on a one-liner I placed at the end of a massive, detailed post.
Last edited by A mean old man on Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
A: SC#16 - Repeal "Liberate The Security Council"
A: SC#26 - Commend The Joint Systems Alliance
A: SC#30 - Commend 10000 Islands
A: SC#37 - Condemn NAZI EUROPE
A: SC#38 - Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE"
A: GA#149 - On Expiration Dates
C: SC#58 - Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"
A: SC#62 - Repeal "Condemn Swarmlandia"
C: SC#63 - Commend Ballotonia
A: SC#65 - Condemn Punk Reloaded
C: GA#163 - Repeal "Law of the Sea"
A: SC#72 - Repeal "Commend Mikeswill"
C: SC#74 - Condemn Lone Wolves United
C: SC#76 - Repeal "Condemn Thatcherton"
A: SC#81 - Repeal "Condemn Anthony Delasanta"
C: SC#83 - Condemn Automagfreek
C: SC#84 - Repeal "Liberate Islam"
C: SC#111 - Commend Krulltopia ← please forget

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Punk Reloaded
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Posts: 450
Founded: May 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Punk Reloaded » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:28 am

Ballatonia,

I'd like you to tell me how I've been a crappy del. It's probably a discussion for a different thread. But at worst, tell me how I am worse than southern bellz. We'll call bellz the proverbial Mendoza Line (US Baseball reference).

I'm interested in this.
Former Delegate of The West Pacific
Former Foreign Affairs Minister, The West Pacific

Punk Reloaded - Retired
Big D Baby - Retired
Punk Daddy - Citizen of TSP

In TWP, we go Commando. - Darkesia

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