PASSED: Liberate Feudal Japan

[Progressive Union]

Can I ask why this came two years after the FEUDAL JAPAN region was invaded?

Because Liberation proposals didn't exist until recently.

Ambassador Alexia Papadakis,

Yeah, I knew that. I am just wondering why this came up NOW as opposed to when the Liberation proposals were first enacted.

I am pushing for my region to vote in favor of this, since I believe it is a noble proposal. I just has a regional member ask why it took so long and was wondering what light the author had to shed on it.

Thank you.

D. Mark Melancon
Prime Minister - Progressive Union
Ambassador - Royal Federation of Nations

[The Sedge]

Can I ask why this came two years after the FEUDAL JAPAN region was invaded?

Because Liberation proposals didn't exist until recently.

Ambassador Alexia Papadakis,

Yeah, I knew that. I am just wondering why this came up NOW as opposed to when the Liberation proposals were first enacted.

I am pushing for my region to vote in favor of this, since I believe it is a noble proposal. I just has a regional member ask why it took so long and was wondering what light the author had to shed on it.

Thank you.

D. Mark Melancon
Prime Minister - Progressive Union
Ambassador - Royal Federation of Nations

The nation 'Michelle1A' in Feudal Japan is Killerkatz of Catlandatopia. Another region which she griefed (along with Todd McCloud of Fox Rite) was San Francisco Bay Area, and unfortunately, she re-founded this one. I was friends with some of the members of that region, and unfortunately they didn't survive after they were raided - some nations moved to San Francisco, but that died off pretty quickly. I noticed that Killerkatz's nation in San Francisco Bay Area (The Older Guards) was close to CTEing, and I wanted to be able to re-found that region myself once her nation CTEd. I knew that a 'Liberate Feudal Japan' proposal would be brought to her attention, which might also mean she realised that her nation in San Francisco Bay Area was about to CTE. Therefore, I waited until that nation CTEd, and re-founded San Francisco Bay Area (I've contacted the people I used to know who were part of that region, but I think its unlikely they'll ever return to NationStates). As soon as that was complete, I submitted the 'Liberate Feudal Japan' proposal.

It was simply a case of doing a favour for some friends, so that their old region was there for them if they wanted to return to NationStates.

[Progressive Union]

Can I ask why this came two years after the FEUDAL JAPAN region was invaded?

The nation 'Michelle1A' in Feudal Japan is Killerkatz of Catlandatopia. Another region which she griefed (along with Todd McCloud of Fox Rite) was San Francisco Bay Area, and unfortunately, she re-founded this one. I was friends with some of the members of that region, and unfortunately they didn't survive after they were raided - some nations moved to San Francisco, but that died off pretty quickly. I noticed that Killerkatz's nation in San Francisco Bay Area (The Older Guards) was close to CTEing, and I wanted to be able to re-found that region myself once her nation CTEd. I knew that a 'Liberate Feudal Japan' proposal would be brought to her attention, which might also mean she realised that her nation in San Francisco Bay Area was about to CTE. Therefore, I waited until that nation CTEd, and re-founded San Francisco Bay Area (I've contacted the people I used to know who were part of that region, but I think its unlikely they'll ever return to NationStates). As soon as that was complete, I submitted the 'Liberate Feudal Japan' proposal.

It was simply a case of doing a favour for some friends, so that their old region was there for them if they wanted to return to NationStates.

Thank you , fine Ambassador.

And as stated before, I am hoping that this passes, as it is a just and noble cause.

D. Mark Melancon

[Todd McCloud]

As I recall Todd McCloud or FoxRite was one of those invader groups involved in the destruction of Feudal japan. He is also responsible for the invasion and refound of several regions named after places in eastern Europe. As such, OF COURSE he is against this liberation proposal.

So Veilyonia, Bear Arms, etc, just ignore whatever that Todd says. Don't even bother.

The only regions I own that are Eastern European are as follows:

Poland
Slovakia
Kosovo
Ukraine

You can check them. Democracy is not barred at all from any of those regions. You *may* have me confused with the Macedonians, in which case, well, I'll forgive it this time, but no worries otherwise. And as for raiding, I haven't raided since December of 2007, so while that is somewhat historically correct, I'm quite removed from that aspect of the game. I just believe in protecting raider rights because, well, if I won't, who will? Furthermore, many fail to realize that in order to have defenders employed, there must be raiders. In order for raiders to have a challenge, they need defenders. It's really symbiotic, when you think about it - both depend on each other for survival.

[The Sedge]

And as for raiding, I haven't raided since December of 2007, so while that is somewhat historically correct, I'm quite removed from that aspect of the game. I just believe in protecting raider rights because, well, if I won't, who will? Furthermore, many fail to realize that in order to have defenders employed, there must be raiders. In order for raiders to have a challenge, they need defenders. It's really symbiotic, when you think about it - both depend on each other for survival.

And I don't wish to see raiders driven from the game, they're a nuisance for those they invade, but they're needed for the invader/defender dynamic to survive. However, I make a distinction between raiders who simply hold a region for a while, and then leave; and griefers who take over a region and then destroy it by kicking out natives, and passwording the region. The difference is not to do with tactics (in contrast to your opposition just to 'password-grabbers'), but with intent - if someone intends to destroy a region, then what they are doing is wrong.

I will defend raiders right to play NationStates (you may have noticed my opposition to the 'Open Immigration' proposal), but will side with those who wish to stop griefing.

This proposal is not a stand against raiders - far from it. The resolution makes quite clear that the opposition to the invasion of Feudal Japan is based on the fact that a community was kicked out of its homeland, and seriously damaged in the process.

[Hamagatama Zenshi]

i still fail to see hy there has been a password on feudal japan in the first place

Raiders took over the region, kicked everyone out, then placed a password protection on the region to prevent anyone from coming back.

Looks like I have to repeat a segment of my previous post for clarification. The first chance I had upon having enough influence I put up the password to keep out the variety of defenders and rebels and other questionables that kept arriving in the region. For a very very long time the password was in fact visible to the natives, allowing them to share it with the defenders but it resulted in only a trickling in of outsiders, making it much easier to kick them out. Honestly, If I could ensure that I didn't have to check in every update to make sure the defenders weren't up to something I gladly would and that is what I did. Since the natives were leaking the password I made the password private so only I would know to bring outside entry to a halt. As far as ejecting the natives goes. My main focus was Koz and other members who had high influence (most members did) in order to raise my own to make my job as delegate much easier. It took a very long time and only a few months ago did Koz the last native finally leave the region, I did not eject him not that it really matters because I honestly would have ejected anyway to cut down the influence even further.

On a different note I found a region I'm willing to give to the natives. http://www.nationstates.net/region=futile_japan

[Aurania-Shifre]

The true denizens of Feudal Japan have the total support of their ever ally the Kingdom region.


Helga Densen
Aurano-Shifrean Foreign Minister
Emissary of Kingdom

[Vinoslavia]

Against. More WA time wasted.

And why do you say that? How else would you have this situation solved, or would you rather leave Feudal Japan in the hands of gloating griefers, who find it amusing to boast about how many people they've driven out of NationStates?

YES.

Without raiders and griefers you people would have nothing to do, discuss or talk about. They're an integral part of the game just as much as issues and the WA itself. You are a nation which presents itself as a defender, but without the griefers what would you have to defend?.
I was critical of the way that the WA was used as a lever in the Belgium issue, to help gain a password and trigger a subsequent reinstation of natives while the issue was still at vote, as a result wasting 4 days of valuable WA time. Since then I have become ever more critical of these proposals, observing "natives" and "defenders" alike become themselves what they proclaimed to be rallying against and denying free entry into their regions. The whole thing is flawed and reaks of hypocrisy.

[Mikoyan-Guryevich]

Sometimes invasions are fun, did anyone think to invade a raiding region? We could even call it a 'counter-insurgency' mission, parade it in front of the WA, threaten sanctions on anybody who disapproves and press on whilst its at vote! Wow, this opened up a whole new persepctive on defence, some times, to play D, you gotta go on the offensive.

Anyway, on a serious note raiders are a part of the game but some people would rather play a peaceful game without any impediments. Its not for the WA to decide how these nations should feel, but it is for the WA to decide the best resolution for the situation. The obvious choice is, give the region back to the people. The raiders can claim success, the invaded nation can rest easy and everyone is happy, at the end of it all atleast.

MiG is for this proposal, to the raiders, you have had your fun, it just ain't funny no more.

[Bears Armed]

Against. More WA time wasted.

And why do you say that? How else would you have this situation solved, or would you rather leave Feudal Japan in the hands of gloating griefers, who find it amusing to boast about how many people they've driven out of NationStates?

YES.

Without raiders and griefers you people would have nothing to do, discuss or talk about.

OH, PISGSHIT!!!

Can you honestly claim never to have noticed the existence of the game's RP forums, with the thriving commuities that are based there? Or the regions that have thriving forums of their own for reasons other than coordinating "Gameplay" activities? Or NSG?
There are plenty of things apart from "invasions" that people here can and do enjoy talking about, and from what I've seen the vast majority of those people are quite happy with their activities and do not want to see their home regions raided in order to (as one raider posted a few weeks ago) "liven things up"...

[Vinoslavia]

OH, PISGSHIT!!!

Can you honestly claim never to have noticed the existence of the game's RP forums, with the thriving commuities that are based there? Or the regions that have thriving forums of their own for reasons other than coordinating "Gameplay" activities? Or NSG?
There are plenty of things apart from "invasions" that people here can and do enjoy talking about, and from what I've seen the vast majority of those people are quite happy with their activities and do not want to see their home regions raided in order to (as one raider posted a few weeks ago) "liven things up"...

I couldn't disagree more with everything you just said.

My post was mainly aimed at those who spend seemingly all their lives drafting up pathetic proposals to Liberate regions which have been long dead and seemingly just like the sound of their own voices while they talk to themselves and tell themselves how many great deads they are doing on a game on the internet. My post was aimed at nations such as, with respect, (and I appologise in advance for the maybe undiplomatic almost liablous accusation i'm about to make about a nation) West Flanders, who has now turned the region of beligium into some kind of elitist paradise just like Mencer before him and is drowned in his own hypocrisy. Perhaps my use of the words "You people" was slightly vague and I wasn't directing that at the community as a whole.

My nation has been warned about it's conduct in this forum once before, so I will avoid engaging in any form of heated debate in the interest of preserving the good name of a nation which is at present deciding whether it want's at all to be part of an organisation which has of late been made a mockery. Used merely as a lever by some groups and which (apologies, Off Topic) has also passed legislation which has restricted free speach and condemned the Nazi Europe region who, although in my opinion are very wrong, have not exactly committed any form of actions within the game which would therefore merit condemnation.

[Bears Armed]

My post was mainly aimed at those who spend seemingly all their lives drafting up pathetic proposals to Liberate a region which has been long dead and long unimportant to anyone still playing the game and seemingly just like the sound of their own voices while they talk to themselves and tell themselves how many great deads they are doing on a game on the internet. My post was aimed at nations such as, with respect, (and I appologise in advance for the maybe undiplomatic almost liablous accusation i'm about to make about a nation) West Flanders, who has now turned the region of beligium into some kind of elitist paradise just like Mencer before him and is drowned in his own hypocrisy. Perhaps my use of the words "You people" was slightly vague and I wasn't directing that at the community as a whole.

Clarification understood. It's just that I've been getting a bit fed up with invaders/raiders talking as though they're doing the rest of us (and not just the defenders) a favour...

[Vinoslavia]

My post was mainly aimed at those who spend seemingly all their lives drafting up pathetic proposals to Liberate a region which has been long dead and long unimportant to anyone still playing the game and seemingly just like the sound of their own voices while they talk to themselves and tell themselves how many great deads they are doing on a game on the internet. My post was aimed at nations such as, with respect, (and I appologise in advance for the maybe undiplomatic almost liablous accusation i'm about to make about a nation) West Flanders, who has now turned the region of beligium into some kind of elitist paradise just like Mencer before him and is drowned in his own hypocrisy. Perhaps my use of the words "You people" was slightly vague and I wasn't directing that at the community as a whole.

Clarification understood. It's just that I've been getting a bit fed up with invaders/raiders talking as though they're doing the rest of us (and not just the defenders) a favour...

That's fine with me.

You replied quick haha, I posted it and realised much of what i'd just written was rather gramatically limited, so I did a spot of editing and discovered you'd already replied.

Ye, I agree there is alot more to the game than alot of people think but I still feel that raiders are an integral part of the game.

[Kleinekatzen]

When I recieve a telegram asking me to endorse the liberation proposal to liberate Feudal Japan, I took the time to examine the region in question.

Upon examination I noticed that yes this region had been invaded as indicated by the invaders themselves, and furthermore the invaders had no intention of allowing the region to grow. I therefore took the time to endorse the proposal, having been motivated by the very fact that the invaders were amused by the decline of the region.

To those who say that this proposal is a waste of WA time. I feel the need to point out that enough WA Delegates, felt that the proposal was worth our time to consider that the required quota was reached so it could go up before the WA.

And if you are wondering, I have cast my regional vote For the liberation of Feudal Japan.

[Travancore-Cochin]

My post was mainly aimed at those who spend seemingly all their lives drafting up pathetic proposals to Liberate regions which have been long dead and seemingly just like the sound of their own voices while they talk to themselves and tell themselves how many great deads they are doing on a game on the internet. My post was aimed at nations such as, with respect, (and I appologise in advance for the maybe undiplomatic almost liablous accusation i'm about to make about a nation) West Flanders, who has now turned the region of beligium into some kind of elitist paradise just like Mencer before him and is drowned in his own hypocrisy. Perhaps my use of the words "You people" was slightly vague and I wasn't directing that at the community as a whole.

Excuse me, but West-Flanders did what?

The Liberate Belgium resolution is still standing, so he can't password Belgium. Perhaps you can explain what you mean by "turned the region of beligium into some kind of elitist paradise just like Mencer before him and is drowned in his own hypocrisy". And also, for your kind information Vinoslavia, Belgium is not dead, by any means.

Cut all that out, what relevance do your posts have vis-à-vis the current proposal at vote? If you were so critical of Liberation, you should have aired your concerns when it was being proposed. And if you're still so critical, you should post your critique at some other thread.

[Inflatable Gandalfs]

To those who say that this proposal is a waste of WA time. I feel the need to point out that enough WA Delegates, felt that the proposal was worth our time to consider that the required quota was reached so it could go up before the WA.

I don't care if this was endorsed by Jesus, Buddha and the Space Pope; something does not become worthwhile just because a lot of people agree with you. And for the record, there is a difference between "a waste of time" and "a waste of the WA's time." Preventing region-griefing certainly is not a waste of players' and moderators' time; using the WA as a griefing arbitration panel undoubtedly is.

[Vinoslavia]

My post was mainly aimed at those who spend seemingly all their lives drafting up pathetic proposals to Liberate regions which have been long dead and seemingly just like the sound of their own voices while they talk to themselves and tell themselves how many great deads they are doing on a game on the internet. My post was aimed at nations such as, with respect, (and I appologise in advance for the maybe undiplomatic almost liablous accusation i'm about to make about a nation) West Flanders, who has now turned the region of beligium into some kind of elitist paradise just like Mencer before him and is drowned in his own hypocrisy. Perhaps my use of the words "You people" was slightly vague and I wasn't directing that at the community as a whole.

Excuse me, but West-Flanders did what?

The Liberate Belgium resolution is still standing, so he can't password Belgium. Perhaps you can explain what you mean by "turned the region of beligium into some kind of elitist paradise just like Mencer before him and is drowned in his own hypocrisy". And also, for your kind information Vinoslavia, Belgium is not dead, by any means.

Cut all that out, what relevance do your posts have vis-à-vis the current proposal at vote? If you were so critical of Liberation, you should have aired your concerns when it was being proposed. And if you're still so critical, you should post your critique at some other thread.

Which I have countless times if you were to bother to look in other liberation threads particularly the one on Belgium around the time it was first drafted onwards. West Flanders maintains certain powers as delegate and has adopted a policy of ejecting and banning many nations. Belgium is not dead no, nor ever has been. I just objected to the methods used by the defenders to gain it back by using the WA as a mere lever to find out the password. I Am talking about regions such as Feudal Japan and Chicago which are both nations that when liberated (which will happen with Feudal Japan and has happened with Chicago) will remain fairly dead and not worth the time and effort anyway. It seems that once again the WA has been used as a mere lever to obtain a password in the case of Chicago, however unlike the Belgium natives someone bothered to cancel the liberation proposal when it became irrelevant while it was still in quorum which I respect. What are you on about? I am critical of this Liberation and so I am voicing my opinion. I am also backing up my whole stance on the Security liberation thing being flawed through and through by providing examples of where it has recently been misused and disrespected. If this Liberation passes without there being an instance whereby the password is obtained early and used then I have little quarms with this particular Liberation vote per-se.

[The Sedge]

The 'Liberate Belgium' proposal was not put forward in order to obtain the password, it was put forward so that the region could be liberated. It was fortunate that defenders managed to acquire the password beforehand, and carry out an early liberation, which saved us (and the natives of Belgium) from having to endure what would undoubtedly have been a lengthy campaign to liberate the region. It doesn't matter that the region was liberated before the password was lifted, because the original intent of the liberation resolution (to actually liberate Belgium) was achieved. Moreover, the resolution was already at vote when the password was acquired & used, meaning that there was no way it could be removed from vote (the game mods/admins don't do that). The Liberation resolution was not mis-used (are you really suggesting that given the choice between liberating the region straight away, or waiting until the resolution passed (given that the resolution could not be removed from being at vote) that we should've waited?), it was used successfully, and according to its original aims.

[Vinoslavia]

The 'Liberate Belgium' proposal was not put forward in order to obtain the password, it was put forward so that the region could be liberated. It was fortunate that defenders managed to acquire the password beforehand, and carry out an early liberation, which saved us (and the natives of Belgium) from having to endure what would undoubtedly have been a lengthy campaign to liberate the region. It doesn't matter that the region was liberated before the password was lifted, because the original intent of the liberation resolution (to actually liberate Belgium) was achieved. Moreover, the resolution was already at vote when the password was acquired & used, meaning that there was no way it could be removed from vote (the game mods/admins don't do that). The Liberation resolution was not mis-used (are you really suggesting that given the choice between liberating the region straight away, or waiting until the resolution passed (given that the resolution could not be removed from being at vote) that we should've waited?), it was used successfully, and according to its original aims.

Yes I am suggesting that and rightly so.

Moreover the Vinoslavian people have decided that they no longer wish to be part of the WA at least for now and have voted to become independent. This was brought about partly as a protest against some of the recent events and actions taken by fellow nations, but also will provide the nation with space to breathe and the freedom from WA legislation needed in order to straighten out it's economy which has been one of the latest Eastern European casualties of the recession. President Branislav Berski confirmed the result in his monthly address of the nation this afternoon at 12 PM. And all lose ends are expected to be tied up within a matter of weeks.

We thank all and vow one day to return to the organisation.

[Milks Empire]

This resolution would have a yes vote from the Senate and Diet were it not for the part that forbids ever putting a password on the region again. If the invaders left and the original leaders regained control, a password could prevent them from invading again.

[The Sedge]

This resolution would have a yes vote from the Senate and Diet were it not for the part that forbids ever putting a password on the region again. If the invaders left and the original leaders regained control, a password could prevent them from invading again.

Easy to explain - if it didn't forbid putting on a password again, then the invaders would simply password the region again as soon as this resolution passes. If the natives want a password put back on after the resolution passes, then they can propose a repeal of this resolution.

[Martyrdoom]

The 'Liberate Belgium' proposal was not put forward in order to obtain the password, it was put forward so that the region could be liberated. It was fortunate that defenders managed to acquire the password beforehand, and carry out an early liberation, which saved us (and the natives of Belgium) from having to endure what would undoubtedly have been a lengthy campaign to liberate the region. It doesn't matter that the region was liberated before the password was lifted, because the original intent of the liberation resolution (to actually liberate Belgium) was achieved. Moreover, the resolution was already at vote when the password was acquired & used, meaning that there was no way it could be removed from vote (the game mods/admins don't do that). The Liberation resolution was not mis-used (are you really suggesting that given the choice between liberating the region straight away, or waiting until the resolution passed (given that the resolution could not be removed from being at vote) that we should've waited?), it was used successfully, and according to its original aims.

Yes I am suggesting that and rightly so.

Moreover the Vinoslavian people have decided that they no longer wish to be part of the WA at least for now and have voted to become independent. This was brought about partly as a protest against some of the recent events and actions taken by fellow nations, but also will provide the nation with space to breathe and the freedom from WA legislation needed in order to straighten out it's economy which has been one of the latest Eastern European casualties of the recession. President Branislav Berski confirmed the result in his monthly address of the nation this afternoon at 12 PM. And all lose ends are expected to be tied up within a matter of weeks.

We thank all and vow one day to return to the organisation.

Martyrdoom hopes this will not stop Vinoslavia from contributing to these Forums as its implicit policy of consistently getting to the real heart of the matter will be sadly missed.

[Cobdenia]

The 'Liberate Belgium' proposal was not put forward in order to obtain the password, it was put forward so that the region could be liberated. It was fortunate that defenders managed to acquire the password beforehand, and carry out an early liberation, which saved us (and the natives of Belgium) from having to endure what would undoubtedly have been a lengthy campaign to liberate the region. It doesn't matter that the region was liberated before the password was lifted, because the original intent of the liberation resolution (to actually liberate Belgium) was achieved. Moreover, the resolution was already at vote when the password was acquired & used, meaning that there was no way it could be removed from vote (the game mods/admins don't do that). The Liberation resolution was not mis-used (are you really suggesting that given the choice between liberating the region straight away, or waiting until the resolution passed (given that the resolution could not be removed from being at vote) that we should've waited?), it was used successfully, and according to its original aims.

Yes I am suggesting that and rightly so.

Moreover the Vinoslavian people have decided that they no longer wish to be part of the WA at least for now and have voted to become independent. This was brought about partly as a protest against some of the recent events and actions taken by fellow nations, but also will provide the nation with space to breathe and the freedom from WA legislation needed in order to straighten out it's economy which has been one of the latest Eastern European casualties of the recession. President Branislav Berski confirmed the result in his monthly address of the nation this afternoon at 12 PM. And all lose ends are expected to be tied up within a matter of weeks.

We thank all and vow one day to return to the organisation.

Say what you will about SC resolution...it leads to excellent opportunites for expanding one's office space

[Veilyonia]

Which I have countless times if you were to bother to look in other liberation threads particularly the one on Belgium around the time it was first drafted onwards. West Flanders maintains certain powers as delegate and has adopted a policy of ejecting and banning many nations.

And clearly, the invader delegate did not even think of ejecting natives... West-Flanders has ejected very few newcomers (most of which are in fact, raider puppets), and he reserves the right to do so. If your house was just broken into, would you be a little more cautious in regards to sharing your personal information? The same principles apply.

Belgium is not dead no, nor ever has been. I just objected to the methods used by the defenders to gain it back by using the WA as a mere lever to find out the password.

And I object to invader delegates using passwords as a means to keep out defenders/natives. And, actually, the defenders liberated the region after finding out the password. The delegate, feeling an urgent need for more endorsements, was careless in giving out the password to other invaders. He paid the price in the long run, the WA had a minimal effect on the liberation.

I Am talking about regions such as Feudal Japan and Chicago which are both nations that when liberated (which will happen with Feudal Japan and has happened with Chicago) will remain fairly dead and not worth the time and effort anyway. It seems that once again the WA has been used as a mere lever to obtain a password in the case of Chicago, however unlike the Belgium natives someone bothered to cancel the liberation proposal when it became irrelevant while it was still in quorum which I respect. What are you on about?

However, there are still natives that wish to return to the region, a larger amount than what we saw with Chicago. In addition, giving them back their region gives them the oppurtunity to exapnd to their former height, regardless of the amount of nations still active. I would hardly consider it a waste of time.

I am critical of this Liberation and so I am voicing my opinion. I am also backing up my whole stance on the Security liberation thing being flawed through and through by providing examples of where it has recently been misused and disrespected. If this Liberation passes without there being an instance whereby the password is obtained early and used then I have little quarms with this particular Liberation vote per-se.

While the early liberations were caused by the WA, the same result would have occured were the resolution to pass. It still sdoes serve a purpose, as it prevents said region from being griefed in the future. Hence, it still brings about part of what it intended to.

[Martyrdoom]

It's important not to overlook the possibility that the same result would NOT have occured were the resolution to pass: West-Flanders was empowered by the 'defender' group, whereas the liberation would have just removed the password.