PASSED: Liberate Feudal Japan

[Hamagatama Zenshi]

Charming, like the past I always end up on peoples minds for some reason or another even if I have no desire to.

Feudal Japan was the very last raid of my long and successful career as an Invader and officially marked my retirement from the bitter Invader vs defender conflict that I had been involved with since 2003/2004. Initially I had been infiltrating the region, slowly garnering endorsements from the native population and letting my influence increase. Around that time I was quite forceful inducted as DEN Field Marshal, a post I didn't much care for as it was too much desk work for someone like myself who was far more comfortable on the battlefield.
I had a decent amount of endorsements but not enough to become delegate even with the DEN army at my back. It was at this moment I turned to Shell of Catland, whom I had been on civil terms with for quite some time in my efforts to put down DEN's ego and encourage a greater feeling of raider unity that I saw was sorely lacking at the time. Catland promised the troops I required and the operation appeared to be going smoothly until the DEN army failed to materialize due to their distrust of the Catland troops, resulting in a heated argument between myself and Meridianland (Meri) (former successful invader but less than capable Field Marshal *or so I was lead to believe, but DEN's issues were not my own.* ) This resulted in the FAILURE of the invasion as we were unable to best the native delegate and were cast out due to their hubris.

A time later I was again approached by Catland who offered me the pointman spot in a second invasion after post invasion tensions in Feudal Japan's native population subsided. The raid was not motivated by Catland's feelings toward Feudal Japan, it was their way of showing their respect to me a dear friend and champion of the Invader ideal by granting me a second chance at conquering Feudal Japan as it was a victory I deserved considering the sole reason for my defeat was the treachery of my own forces!

As you can imagine a coalition of fellow raiders who shared our goal and gladly committed their forces to the operation in a shining example of what can be accomplished through Raider Unity. The rest you could say is history, there were defense attempts for some time but once I had the necessary influence I issued a password to keep invaders out but a password that allowed natives to come and go as they pleased as I did not have the influence at the time to create a secret password. When I did I was able to bring resistance to a halt, I ejected only those who defied my reign and allowed the others to remain. Koz had to be removed because he was the former delegate and had the most influence.

In the 637 days that have trickled by I have not received a single request from the "natives" to return to their region, a request I would gladly grant provided they did not make any attempt to circumvent my power. I'm not nearly as active as I used to be on Nation States but I check in enough to make sure Feudal Japan is doing all right. Regardless after 637 days in exile isn't it a bit audacious to refer to them as natives? They seemed happy enough in their Tokugawa place so I let them be there and do whatever little role plays or like minded nonsense that they desired, as far as I know all of this time they have been playing and having fun on their off site forum.

Simply put this recent proposal is rooted in politics and animosity The Founderless Region Alliance (or whatever its called) and Catlandatopia for actions Catland carried out against them in the past, all of them legitimate. Its my sincere belief that the common people of nation states should not waste their time with such a pointless resolution that does nothing to benefit the Nation States community as a whole.

Feudal Japan is my responsibility, mine as an individual, Catland just made it possible. I will continue to safe guard Feudal Japan as a delegate should and do all in my power to combat any incursions that may take place as any delegate would which is something I'm sure many of you delegates have faced at some point or another.

I am Groznia, delegate of Feudal Japan. Farewell.

[Jey]

We still have not forgiven the Imperial Japanese Navy for the sinking of HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse, nor for the mistreatment of prisoners of war from Commonwealth nations by Japanese forces in the period 1941-45. Our WA proxy shall vote against.

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

Oh I can't wait for this debate to ensue...

[New Leicestershire]

We still have not forgiven the Imperial Japanese Navy for the sinking of HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse, nor for the mistreatment of prisoners of war from Commonwealth nations by Japanese forces in the period 1941-45. Our WA proxy shall vote against.

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

This being Feudal Japan, its rather before any of the Real-World (and hence irrelevant anyway) events which you're talking about.

The seeds of Japanese imperial aggression were sown during the feudal period. Best to keep them under occupation, otherwise the next thing you know they'll be invading Manchuria.

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

OOC:

[MarauderIIC]

It is a part of the game and has never been publically condemned by moderators or admin. So the ability to call it wrong is off the table: it is legal, and a part of the game. After all, without raiding, defenders such as yourself would be out of a job.

But a "Liberate" proposal type was implemented. Although, you're right, it's not condemnation. But it allows public opinion to influence the game. And I'm pretty sure that the admins aren't totally stupid, surely they had some idea of what would happen.

And, you can try to ban somebody's opinion, but I don't think it'll work. People can call it wrong if they feel it is wrong. And people can call it right if they feel it is right. And then somebody can propose some Liberate legislation, which you are welcome to vote against. If the majority of people dislike raiders, they will vote for it. If the majority of people don't care, or like raiders, they will vote against it.

The occupations of "raiding" and "defending" seem to pretty much be at the beck and call of public opinion. The game is still neutral. Public opinion, however, seems to pretty much be against raiders, all the time. Which is unfortunate for the raiders, but that's the way the world works. Majority rules, and all that (and that's pretty much how raiding works anyway, right? Short-term majority?).

Please politely correct anything that's incorrect, these forums aren't something I frequent.

[Face Dancers]

NOTING that the invasion of the region by Catlandatopia, Fox Rite, The Cathedral, and Blades of Conquest led to the imposition of a secret password and the ejection of Feudal Japan's innocent members;

How many were ejected, exactly? I seem to glean from this thread that there were natives who actually left on their own accord, thus I wish to know how many were ejected. Maybe only one, due to the threat he posed to the current delegate? What's wrong with that?

FURTHER NOTING that the former residents of Feudal Japan currently reside in Tokugawa Japan and still desire to return to Feudal Japan;

Really? The delegate says that "In the 637 days that have trickled by I have not received a single request from the "natives" to return to their region". They haven't even tried. So do they really want to go back? Or do they prefer their new region? You would have thought that people who wanted to be in FJ would not have left the region, and would have asked for it back. But no, they did not. Why should we help them, if they refuse to help themselves?

[Naivetry]

*snip*

Thanks for the view from the other side. And it's a good reminder for anyone who has forgotten that we did try to liberate Feudal Japan. But let's look at the numbers from Nov. 23, 2007.

Native lead: The KoZ
Endorsements Received: 17 (Many Little Buddhas, Maddogg, Ghaard Allamia, Cranach, Toastghanistan, Jisel, Ynys Dywyll, Loving Peoples People, Aizen, TrenB, Komkano, Madazi, Feudal Montopholous, The Galaxy Police, Hospitaliers, Voltaz, Blackwolfe)

Invader Del: Hamagatama Zenshi
Endorsements Received: 25 (Felenas13036, Tom Cruise Samurai, Ringading King, Ridiculous Emperor, Middle of the Block, Derby Winner, Houski, Danitsu, Conguki, The 90th Empire, The Marion Tree, Ito Hirobumi, Energrace, Christmas Ninja, Shomoko, Stevaki, Greckido, Big Production Values, Pyengpek, The PPC, Tosaki Nogubu, Zoomy Girl, Tokyo economy, Singing Seals, The Sushi Patrol)
UN update pending: nation has 26 verified endorsements.

Nov. 24:
Native: no change

Invader Del: Hamagatama Zenshi
Endorsements Received: 30 (Felenas13036, Tom Cruise Samurai, Ringading King, Ridiculous Emperor, Middle of the Block, Derby Winner, Houski, Danitsu, Conguki, The 90th Empire, The Marion Tree, Ito Hirobumi, Energrace, Christmas Ninja, Shomoko, Stevaki, Greckido, Big Production Values, Pyengpek, The PPC, Tosaki Nogubu, Zoomy Girl, Tokyo economy, Singing Seals, The Sushi Patrol, Tau-53, Italizan, Jadebrooks, The Alpha BItch Craze, Camlost Towers)

Dec. 13:
Invader Del: Hamagatama Zenshi
Endorsements Received: 40 (Felenas13036, Tom Cruise Samurai, Ringading King, Ridiculous Emperor, Middle of the Block, Derby Winner, Houski, Danitsu, Conguki, The 90th Empire, The Marion Tree, Christmas Ninja, Shomoko, Stevaki, Greckido, Big Production Values, Pyengpek, The PPC, Tosaki Nogubu, Zoomy Girl, Tokyo economy, Singing Seals, Tau-53, Italizan, The Alpha BItch Craze, Joejoeland, Baltarnio, Hott snows, Neromius, Korzan, The canis, Crawling Mist, DFQ, House of Rising Sun, Imperial Maliciousness, Funstar, Prekrasnaya Zemlya, Daedra1a, Goldygold, The Thirtythird Degree)

---

In the beginning, TITO was bogged down in France. The FRA was in Seattle. That left the ADN (on its last legs and almost completely overlapped with TITO and the FRA) and unaffiliated regions like Equilism (around 4 updaters at the time, tops). We needed 14 UN's to get through unbooted, back when update was at 8 GMT (3 a.m. for the East Coast). We didn't have the numbers. And by early December, after (I presume) you'd been kicking people... 24+ updaters? We hadn't seen that since pre-Influence.

My standards of record-keeping at the time were inadequate, so I can't tell you when the password was instituted or how many natives got the boot. I do know that by December 8, Feudal Japan had called off the liberation request because it was impossible; they wanted to focus on trying to pick up the pieces. I also know that 355 days later, there was still a native hanging on in the region. From the Takara Shimbun, Tokugawa Japan's regional newsletter, Nov. 2008:

Resistance remains active in the region of Feudal Japan, 355 days after its occupation by Catlandatopia invaders. The last resistant, Kinjou Tennou KoZ, is making a brave last stand against the imposter delegate. The influence of our emperor is so great that the invader will require at least another month to acquire total control inside Feudal Japan. While we have been pleased by the success of our resistance, we must acknowledge that defeat is inevitable. We must always remember this sad and traitorous attack.

You know that what you did in Feudal Japan would have been labeled griefing under the old rules. You have no excuse of ignorance. You gutted a region for the glory of it, and you held it well, for which you have my professional respect. But if you want a trophy, we have other ways of handing those out, now.

In the 637 days that have trickled by I have not received a single request from the "natives" to return to their region, a request I would gladly grant provided they did not make any attempt to circumvent my power.

I'm going to make one comment on this which is not directed just at you, Groznia, but at every raider who forwards this argument, because I've heard the same before. I don't see why raiders find the repugnance of this idea so hard to understand. You rape a region and then sit around waiting for them to ask to marry you. You're going to have to do better than that.

Have you ever tried to contact the natives to see if a deal could be arranged? Or did you know, deep down, that they'd never agree and you'd never give in? You've had 637 days to show that you wanted to have power over more than an empty shell. Maybe it's time someone else had a chance to do something with it.

For, in case it needed to be said.

[Travancore-Cochin]

They do not stop raiding, but they discourage raiding. When a region is refounded, the general course most raiders follow is to password when pretty much all defenders have had their chance to re-take the region and all but 0-2 natives are left. This raid was no different - it followed that path - this was not a password-grab. Now, defenders get a second chance, like an extra life, but soon they will be invincible - once a password is gone, a password cannot be placed back onto the region until the resolution is repealed. So they can keep trying, without end, running through the region like ravenous wolves. Given enough time, they will win and implement their own form of imperialism upon that region. But, of course, that is perfectly okay. This is an unfair advantage, in that it has now tipped the scales in favor of defenders. I am equally against tipping the scales to raiders, because I believe the two groups need each other to survive.

I believe the distinction comes in the definitions of griefing and raiding. There was ample time for the natives and defenders to work in the region - over a year to be precise. Yet nothing happened. In the past year, only 3-4 have been in that region: two CTE'd, one was banned, and the fourth person I am unsure of. But there was time. And the raiders have 'played nice', no one was breaking any rules, etc. This is just giving the defenders a 'second chance', but more precise, an unlimited amount of chances. It is very troubling.

So, just because there was ample time for defenders to have freed the region, banjecting natives, putting an invisible password and destroying the region is suddenly not griefing? I beg to disagree. I still believe that however legal it may be, it is still inherently wrong. The liberation proposal makes it so that the community gets to decide whether it's right or wrong, and whether action should be taken, if it was wrong.

[Bears Armed]

I'm not nearly as active as I used to be on Nation States but I check in enough to make sure Feudal Japan is doing all right.
*(snip)*
Feudal Japan is my responsibility, mine as an individual, Catland just made it possible. I will continue to safe guard Feudal Japan as a delegate should

A region cannot be "doing all right" if it is closed to immigration by a concealed password, with no recruitment efforts by the existing residents, unless it contains an active resident community.
Only two nations there? That isn't "doing all right".


(Edit: typo fixed.)

[Martyrdoom]

If griefing is a problem, the admins could have handled it by simply junking the Influence system, instead of overly complicating things by appointing the WA referee over region-griefing. I maintain these "Liberations" are a waste of the WA's valuable time and resources, and thus vote against.

Exactly. Either have influence or don't. The thing is the WA isn't exactly a referee in these circumstances. It's now a mechanism used by 'defenders' to legitimise their own invasions of regions.

I don't see the argument there. Influence is a good system, and saves the mods from having to rule on every invasion, and the Liberation resolutions deal with its one flaw. Why should it be a straight choice between 'influence with no liberation resolutions' or 'no influence'? And defining liberations used to restore regions to native control as 'invasions'... come off it. Don't tell me you really can't see the difference between someone taking the delegacy of a region to kick out the natives, and someone taking the delegacy to kick out the invaders so that the region can be handed back to the natives.

Firstly, liberations should'nt be about restoring 'natives' to control - it's merely about removing delegate imposed-barriers to free-entry of a region, nothing more and nothing less - it's operatively (and ostensibly) neutral. When the primary aim is to re-empower the 'natives', couched in whatever moralising defenders like, it's still inherently an invasion with the WA-coopted into some sort of police force. Secondly, liberations to restore 'native' control are by definition part of an invasion - taking the delegacy is what makes it so. Thirdly, I don't see the difference because there's no motive in the code - invaders which are ejected are still 'natives' technically.

[The Sedge]

Firstly, liberations should'nt be about restoring 'natives' to control - it's merely about removing delegate imposed-barriers, nothing more and nothing less. When that's the aim its an inherent WA-police action. Secondly, liberations to restore native control are by definition part of an invasion. Thirdly, I don't see the difference because there's no motive in the code - invaders which are ejected are still 'natives' technically.

Liberation resolutions are, in reality, about restoring native control in regions - if you read the text of this resolution, you'll find that the proposal is justified in terms of allowing the natives back to their region:

FURTHER NOTING that the former residents of Feudal Japan currently reside in Tokugawa Japan and still desire to return to Feudal Japan;

AWARE that the nations formerly resident in Feudal Japan can return to their region only through the intervention of the Security Council;

Liberations may be a response to invasions, but they're not part of an invasion, just the reaction to one. Yes, there isn't a motive in the code, but that doesn't mean that game players can't act ethically - and the ethical position here would be to return Feudal Japan to the nations who built it up into a great region, rather than allowing it to rot in the hands of the griefers who gloat about having destroyed a region, and about having driven hundreds of people away from NationStates.

[Martyrdoom]

Firstly, liberations should'nt be about restoring 'natives' to control - it's merely about removing delegate imposed-barriers, nothing more and nothing less. When that's the aim its an inherent WA-police action. Secondly, liberations to restore native control are by definition part of an invasion. Thirdly, I don't see the difference because there's no motive in the code - invaders which are ejected are still 'natives' technically.

Liberation resolutions are, in reality, about restoring native control in regions - if you read the text of this resolution, you'll find that the proposal is justified in terms of allowing the natives back to their region:

FURTHER NOTING that the former residents of Feudal Japan currently reside in Tokugawa Japan and still desire to return to Feudal Japan;

AWARE that the nations formerly resident in Feudal Japan can return to their region only through the intervention of the Security Council;

Liberations may be a response to invasions, but they're not part of an invasion, just the reaction to one. Yes, there isn't a motive in the code, but that doesn't mean that game players can't act ethically - and the ethical position here would be to return Feudal Japan to the nations who built it up into a great region, rather than allowing it to rot in the hands of the griefers who gloat about having destroyed a region, and about having driven hundreds of people away from NationStates.

The text of this resolution is illegal and invalid in my eyes in anycase. But liberations, I humbly beg to differ, are not, in my opinion, primarily about restoring 'native control'. They are essentially neutral - remove the password and keep it off. "A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region". That's it. If not it retrospectively illegalises the prior invasion which was a truly legal act, unless I've missed the memo that stated raiding has been banned.

I personally don't like 'ethics' going near games, but no, the ethical position would be to 'return' Feudal Japan, not to some clique who claim the region for themselves, but to the nations of NS: re-institute free-entry for everyone so they can come and go as they please.

That said, what's the betting that when the lilberation is a success a password subsequently goes up in the name of 'security'?

The only thing I can agree with you on is the 'rotting' aspect - me and my fellows are imperialists but we seek to subsume an active region within our polity and not reduce a region to an inactive wasteland.

[The Sedge]

The text of this resolution is illegal and invalid in my eyes in anycase. But liberations, I humbly beg to differ, are not, in my opinion, primarily about restoring 'native control'. They are essentially neutral - remove the password and keep it off. "A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region". That's it. If not it retrospectively illegalises the prior invasion which was a truly legal act, unless I've missed the memo that stated raiding has been banned.

If you think the resolution is illegal, you should've brought it up before it went up to vote. The resolution only calls for the password to be removed/not re-instated - the 'native' bit (though that term was not used) is that the removal of the password is justified because it'll allow the former residents to return to Feudal Japan.

I personally don't like 'ethics' going near games, but no, the ethical position would be to 'return' Feudal Japan, not to some clique who claim the region for themselves, but to the nations of NS: re-institute free-entry for everyone so they can come and go as they please.

And I disagree with that, because its the nations who were in Feudal Japan before it was invaded who built up the region, and made something out of it. Of course, this resolution wouldn't stop other nations in NS moving in.

That said, what's the betting that when the lilberation is a success a password subsequently goes up in the name of 'security'?

I believe the same prediction was made about Belgium. We shall have to wait and see what the natives of Feudal Japan want, when they eventually get to return - as stated above, I don't see the region as 'publc property'. You may find that the natives desire to keep the resolution in place, so that they don't have to face the problem of griefing in future.

[Martyrdoom]

Don't forget the removal of the password is also justified by the fact it would let nations enter Feudal Japan who may have never been resident there and who want to become a resident, i.e. not just former residents - that clause implies it's the exclusive preserve of these 'natives' to return and that the whole resolution is justified on re-empowering a certain group.

These natives may well have 'built up the region and made something out of it' but there is no real evidence for that. In anycase, like everyone else they had the mechanisms to prevent an invasion from the get-go - install a password or have an active founder. Sure they would have had to trade-off growth and security, but its the same for everyone again. The fact is, yes, the installing of a password by invaders is (or was) pretty much (but not 100%) a game-over mechanism but by the same token that password used by natives would have made any invasion a none-starter. That was real strategic parity to me.

Moreover, the region IS public property because the WA has been called-in under the liberation proposal; they forego (or you forego on behalf of them) any previously held notion of private-ownership now.

[Todd McCloud]

They do not stop raiding, but they discourage raiding. When a region is refounded, the general course most raiders follow is to password when pretty much all defenders have had their chance to re-take the region and all but 0-2 natives are left. This raid was no different - it followed that path - this was not a password-grab. Now, defenders get a second chance, like an extra life, but soon they will be invincible - once a password is gone, a password cannot be placed back onto the region until the resolution is repealed. So they can keep trying, without end, running through the region like ravenous wolves. Given enough time, they will win and implement their own form of imperialism upon that region. But, of course, that is perfectly okay. This is an unfair advantage, in that it has now tipped the scales in favor of defenders. I am equally against tipping the scales to raiders, because I believe the two groups need each other to survive.

I believe the distinction comes in the definitions of griefing and raiding. There was ample time for the natives and defenders to work in the region - over a year to be precise. Yet nothing happened. In the past year, only 3-4 have been in that region: two CTE'd, one was banned, and the fourth person I am unsure of. But there was time. And the raiders have 'played nice', no one was breaking any rules, etc. This is just giving the defenders a 'second chance', but more precise, an unlimited amount of chances. It is very troubling.

So, just because there was ample time for defenders to have freed the region, banjecting natives, putting an invisible password and destroying the region is suddenly not griefing? I beg to disagree. I still believe that however legal it may be, it is still inherently wrong. The liberation proposal makes it so that the community gets to decide whether it's right or wrong, and whether action should be taken, if it was wrong.

What many people fail to realize is griefing is a two-way street. In order for it to continue in a region, the other side must participate in it too, or at least some form of harassment. This has been clearly the case: a check on Feudal Japan shows such behavior on both sides of the fence. But this is totally okay for the 'natives' and clearly wrong for the raiders. Because natives, like defenders, can do no wrong, despite being historically just as 'bad' as raiders. The raiders here did their job, harassed initially, but obviously the fire was returned. So then *both sides* regress down the path of griefing in my eyes. This is why I believe cries of harassment or griefing become in material - both sides were doing that to the max, if I recall.

[Andrewboy]

i still fail to see hy there has been a password on feudal japan in the first place

[Bears Armed]

This has been clearly the case: a check on Feudal Japan shows such behavior on both sides of the fence. But this is totally okay for the 'natives' and clearly wrong for the raiders. Because natives, like defenders, can do no wrong, despite being historically just as 'bad' as raiders.

Excuse me? You're claiming that wanting to restore peace to one's home, by ejecting attackers, is as "bad" as forcing your way into that home and trying to eject the original residents? That's a decidely strange definition of "as bad".

The raiders here did their job, harassed initially,

"job"?!? Were they paid &/or invited to do this by either the region's long-term residents or the game's management? 'Raiding' (in NS) is no more a legitimate "job" than (in RL) housebreaking, or mugging!
If an armed robber breaks into your RL home, and you use force to defeat him, would you seriously think that he had a right to protest against your actions on the grounds that he was "just doing his job"?

[Andrewboy]

i for one strongly agree with bears armed.if wanting to take ones freedome back is bad them im an egyptian skydiving bellydancer named shiraka

[Cocodian]

The raiders here did their job, harassed initially,

"job"?!? Were they paid &/or invited to do this by either the region's long-term residents or the game's management? 'Raiding' (in NS) is no more a legitimate "job" than (in RL) housebreaking, or mugging!
If an armed robber breaks into your RL home, and you use force to defeat him, would you seriously think that he had a right to protest against your actions on the grounds that he was "just doing his job"?

Here, here. I totally agree.

[Veilyonia]

What many people fail to realize is griefing is a two-way street. In order for it to continue in a region, the other side must participate in it too, or at least some form of harassment. This has been clearly the case: a check on Feudal Japan shows such behavior on both sides of the fence. But this is totally okay for the 'natives' and clearly wrong for the raiders.

Yes, actually, the natives' "griefing" actions are somewhat justified. Are they just supposed to bear your insults and actions quietly, and leave the region without a word. As the region was passworded, you took away their ability to fight back, so they fought back in the only way they could, with their words.

Because natives, like defenders, can do no wrong, despite being historically just as 'bad' as raiders. The raiders here did their job, harassed initially, but obviously the fire was returned. So then *both sides* regress down the path of griefing in my eyes. This is why I believe cries of harassment or griefing become in material - both sides were doing that to the max, if I recall.

Again, if raiders are going to instigate a more personal conflict with the natives of the region, they have every right to fight back. If you are punched in the face, are you just supposed to bear it quietly, and pretend like it never happened? In such cases, I would like to see a more diplomatic argument take place, but those griefing the region were clearly not willing to bargain.

[Progressive Union]

Can I ask why this came two years after the FEUDAL JAPAN region was invaded?

[Meekinos]

Can I ask why this came two years after the FEUDAL JAPAN region was invaded?

Because Liberation proposals didn't exist until recently.

[Act-a-fool]

i wish the WA got the chance to vote on issues that i actually give a shit about.

[Airport Motor Lodge]

i wish the WA got the chance to vote on issues that i actually give a shit about.

Then get two of your fellow Virginians to endorse you and start introducing proposals.

[Yamamoto Kansuke]

As I recall Todd McCloud or FoxRite was one of those invader groups involved in the destruction of Feudal japan. He is also responsible for the invasion and refound of several regions named after places in eastern Europe. As such, OF COURSE he is against this liberation proposal.

So Veilyonia, Bear Arms, etc, just ignore whatever that Todd says. Don't even bother.

[Progressive Union]

i still fail to see hy there has been a password on feudal japan in the first place

Raiders took over the region, kicked everyone out, then placed a password protection on the region to prevent anyone from coming back.