[DEFEATED] Liberate Versutian Federation

[Rifty]

Well it made queue...

Doesn't surprise me in any regard

[Versutia]

Well it made queue...

But it will never pass on the floor. The precedence alone that it sets that any region under any circumstance can be subject to liberation attempts even if they are under the control of the natives.

[DWAsnia]

Well it made queue...

But it will never pass on the floor. The precedence alone that it sets that any region under any circumstance can be subject to liberation attempts even if they are under the control of the natives.

That isn't exactly true . . .

*cough*Nazi Europe*cough*

[Rifty]

Well it made queue...

But it will never pass on the floor. The precedence alone that it sets that any region under any circumstance can be subject to liberation attempts even if they are under the control of the natives.

I'm rather interested to see what will happen if it passes - May even pay for the stamps for a campaign to all WA

[Auriga]

But it will never pass on the floor. The precedence alone that it sets that any region under any circumstance can be subject to liberation attempts even if they are under the control of the natives.

I'm rather interested to see what will happen if it passes - May even pay for the stamps for a campaign to all WA

Just want to point out that this statement invalidates your claim that you don't care which way the vote goes.

Frankly, I find everything about you to be quite dubious, from your tone to your argument. I've met people like you before, those who pretend to be courageous martyrs so they can achieve their own ends, paying no mind to the moral wrongness that such action entails. And I must say, people like that disturb me greatly.

Either way, I am not here to discuss your personal attributes; I am here to discuss your argument and the case you have presented.

Firstly, allow me to introduce myself. I am Auriga, the Minister of Defense for the Versutian Federation. I will admit, this does mean that I am biased, but as the majority of my argument will not be based on personal opinion, I don't see that being much of a problem. I was Minister of Defense back when the actions you mentioned supposedly took place, and would have been the one to authorize such action. That being said, I did not give any such order, and any action taken in the capacity you mentioned would have been a violation of Versutian law. I don't believe you were working with Anhur -- and he has presented evidence to support that belief -- but even if you had, you would have been working outside the laws of our region, and would be solely responsible for your actions.

Do you suspect that we are to assume you are a good natured person, who simply made some bad decisions? That everything you say is true? That you have no ulterior motive? I have seen slander campaigns before, you having been the headmaster of one such case, and I am certain that the story you have presented is nothing more than another slander campaign. You assume that we should take you for your word, and believe that you are a good natured person who couldn't possibly do wrong. But your tone is saturated with synthesized sincerity, every word carefully chosen to portray a feeling of guilt. Based on this, I am drawn to the conclusion that your statement was not the product of guilt -- as a guilty man would have no need to be so careful with his words -- but rather the product of meticulous planning and craftsmanship, the work of a expert slanderer. It isn't difficult to come up with several unique ulterior motives for your actions, as you are not necessarily the embodiment of impartial neutrality. You lost an election to Anhur, which could easily leave you with a need for retribution, making your actions today quite unsurprising. Also, you have preformed raids before, being the member of a region that takes part in such actions, meaning that opening the Versutian Federation to invasion would be beneficial to you and your associates. You state that your story harms your reputation, but only with certain people, it offers you much more favor with your current region mates, who clearly matter more than those you have already hurt in the past. Then there is the possibility you could be working with another organization in secret, having struck a deal long ago. There are a number of other possibilities, but these are some of the most likely. Since you present no evidence to support your claim and could easily have an ulterior motive, there is no reason for us to believe your story is true.

Which brings me to my next point, the burden of proof. You are the party responsible for presenting evidence to support your claim, as you are the accuser in this case. It is to be assumed that we are innocent until we are proven guilty, which requires the presentation of concrete evidence. We wouldn't want our beautiful World Assembly to turn into the site of witch trials, now would we? You currently lack such evidence, as you have failed to present anything substantial; and you cannot force us to prove our innocence, as that is not the way a democratic court conducts itself. And, as I have argued above, we have no reason to trust your word. It would be a mockery of the World Assembly for us to pass a resolution that was founded completely on the remarks of a questionable source, especially one who failed to present anything supporting his claim.

Finally, I must state that this would set a very dangerous president, as we would be stating that the World Assembly is nothing more than the means for certain ill-willed people to achieve their own ends at the expense of the world as a whole. I strongly believe that such provincialism was not the original intention of this body, and that such attempts are in contradiction to the very essence of the World Assembly. I am certain that the nations of the world will not allow you to turn them into pawns in your plan to achieve the satisfaction of your own personal vendetta, nor will they allow the World Assembly become such a disgrace. The nations of the world are not foolish, and they will not stand for such injustice.

[Rifty]

The moment the administration is questioned their minister of defence rolls in - I find this highly shifty.

Anhur has provided no evidence to support that him and I had not been working towards the destruction of CAS; he however has provided evidence that I know motherland. Nothing more and nothing less. As I have said on this matter; I do not give two shits if people believe my story - being brutally honest; how the hell would I gain from this? It destroys my honesty from the first months of NS, it benefits a man who destroyed my region of CoF and has put me in a position for ridicule from both sides. It really was just a move to be honest - I don't expect it to have any bearing on the security council resolution. If it does; it does - if it doesn't; it doesn't.

This whole matter of a burden of proof - I didn't post this to go back and than have to prove it; it was so I had no secrets under my wing. For that reason if people don't believe me it is at their loss and not my own. Not that I have ever put them in the position where they would not be able to access the information - but that they refused to accept it. Not my fault. I have provided the resources for them to educate themselves - if they don't wish to than so be it.

Not to mention I am not accusing - I am simply stating what happened to me. What I did alongside anhur. It is as simple as that. He is not up for trial - this is not a court room. In saying that I think a burden is kinda useless since my intent has never been to influence and/or prosecute.

Not to mention I would have no proof on the matter especially since I had that nation deleted long ago - I did not take screenshots of absolutely every message ever presented because it was never in my head that 8 months down the track that I would need evidence to prove what happened.

My side has been explained - me merely a puppet of Anhur in his personal hatred for CAS. Something I thought to be right at the time...and than right during the GDU incident...however recently I've been questioning the matter and well; it was just wrong. I am ashamed about lying to people I called friends for months...but so be it...I think they would prefer honesty over a long lie.

I don't know what else to say - I've told you the truth. If you don't believe it; than so be it. The only people I care to believe that are those former members of CAS who I called friends.

At first I thought him admitting his part in this would be plenty - that I would leave it be. He continues to lie about the matter; so...I see no problem in assisting in the proposals passing by providing the resources to find a campaign.

[Rifty]

Also I'm not sure if you noticed - but my comments where made and brought to light after 40 or so posts. If it was because of this I would have proposed the liberation myself thank you very much.

[Auriga]

The moment the administration is questioned their minister of defence rolls in - I find this highly shifty.

Anhur has provided no evidence to support that him and I had not been working towards the destruction of CAS; he however has provided evidence that I know motherland. Nothing more and nothing less. As I have said on this matter; I do not give two shits if people believe my story - being brutally honest; how the hell would I gain from this? It destroys my honesty from the first months of NS, it benefits a man who destroyed my region of CoF and has put me in a position for ridicule from both sides. It really was just a move to be honest - I don't expect it to have any bearing on the security council resolution. If it does; it does - if it doesn't; it doesn't.

This whole matter of a burden of proof - I didn't post this to go back and than have to prove it; it was so I had no secrets under my wing. For that reason if people don't believe me it is at their loss and not my own. Not that I have ever put them in the position where they would not be able to access the information - but that they refused to accept it. Not my fault. I have provided the resources for them to educate themselves - if they don't wish to than so be it.

Not to mention I am not accusing - I am simply stating what happened to me. What I did alongside anhur. It is as simple as that. He is not up for trial - this is not a court room. In saying that I think a burden is kinda useless since my intent has never been to influence and/or prosecute.

Not to mention I would have no proof on the matter especially since I had that nation deleted long ago - I did not take screenshots of absolutely every message ever presented because it was never in my head that 8 months down the track that I would need evidence to prove what happened.

My side has been explained - me merely a puppet of Anhur in his personal hatred for CAS. Something I thought to be right at the time...and than right during the GDU incident...however recently I've been questioning the matter and well; it was just wrong. I am ashamed about lying to people I called friends for months...but so be it...I think they would prefer honesty over a long lie.

I don't know what else to say - I've told you the truth. If you don't believe it; than so be it. The only people I care to believe that are those former members of CAS who I called friends.

At first I thought him admitting his part in this would be plenty - that I would leave it be. He continues to lie about the matter; so...I see no problem in assisting in the proposals passing by providing the resources to find a campaign.

I don't find it strange at all that the Minister of Defense would become involved when his region is threaten, as the defense of his region is the duty assigned to him. This proposal is a threat to the security of the Versutian Federation, and I will do my very best to insure that it fails. Also, I am a member of the international community, I have the right to voice my opinion and offer what I can to the discussion. There is nothing wrong or suspicious about my involvement in this discussion.

And it is true that Anhur hasn't presented evidence that confirms that you two did not work together, but he has provided evidence that suggests you may have been working with someone you claimed you didn't know, which further puts your position in question. And, again, I cannot stress enough that the burden of proof rests with you, not with Anhur or the Versutian Federation. You are the one making claims, and are responsible for supporting those claims.

Regarding the benefits you may get from this proposal, we have not ruled out the possibility of you having an ulterior motive. As mentioned in my last post, you could very well be working with another party or trying to satisfy a personal vendetta. If you have struck a deal with someone, you could easily stand to gain a lot from the passing of this resolution. And you are the member of a region that participates in raiding, and having new territory to raid would be beneficial to your region mates. And what concern is it to you what people think of you? You have already stated that you do not care what people think, yet your argument is that you wouldn't lie about this for that very reason -- what people think of you. And, then again, why would you care about your reputation amongst a group you were supposedly willing to betray? In your story, you seemed to have no problem hurting them to achieve your own ends. Why should we assume you have suddenly had a change of heart? I don't believe your story, it has far too many contradictions to be true and lacks any supporting evidence.

You state that Anhur is not on trial, but his region's reputation and safety is at stake. By deciding to release your statement at this time, in this particular manner, you have put his reputation in question at a crucial time. Whether you believe it or not, your statements have a large impact on the outcome of this resolution, and we cannot allow your claims to go unchecked. That being said, you haven't given adequate evidence, given the importance of this issue.

You say you find no problem with supporting the passing of this resolution because of the moral wrongness you claim Anhur has committed. This again takes away the possibility of you being impartial, as you have made it clear that you are willing to punish a whole region for the supposed acts of one man, acts which cannot be confirmed to have taken place. And this may very well be a simple gambit to take the moral high ground, by making yourself a martyr and playing off the emotions of those you deceive. There is nothing about your case that offers you the slightest credibility, as everything you have presented is founded on the notion that you are a morally incorruptible character who cannot tell a lie, which is a claim invalidated by the very story you claim to be true. I see no reason for the World Assembly to support you in this case.

I strongly urge the World Assembly to vote against this horrendous proposal, as it's only claim has no supporting evidence and comes from a highly questionable character.

[Rifty]

Nothing of mine was read - was it? In saying that I don't feel it's me duty to continue to argue this point. You disbelieve. I believe. I don't care if others believe. I can not prove. From that we can take one thing - that this here is a statement by myself with the nothing backing it other than my own word; however it being accepted as the truth is not a matter we care for.

Also...just for being rude and such; I will be paying for the campaigns. Have a nice day.

[Rifty]

Nothing of mine was read - was it? In saying that I don't feel it's me duty to continue to argue this point. You disbelieve. I believe. I don't care if others believe. I can not prove. From that we can take one thing - that this here is a statement by myself with the nothing backing it other than my own word; however it being accepted as the truth is not a matter we care for.

Also...just for being rude and such; I will be paying for the campaigns. Have a nice day.

I like to think of myself as a reasonable person - all I wished for was him to admit it to be true. Than I'd have shut up and left this to die. He cant man up enough to do it - than so be it. Instead I will encourage this liberation.

[Auriga]

Nothing of mine was read - was it? In saying that I don't feel it's me duty to continue to argue this point. You disbelieve. I believe. I don't care if others believe. I can not prove. From that we can take one thing - that this here is a statement by myself with the nothing backing it other than my own word; however it being accepted as the truth is not a matter we care for.

Also...just for being rude and such; I will be paying for the campaigns. Have a nice day.

I throughly read your statements, being sure to analyze your argument. I understand that you do not wish to present supporting evidence for your case; but you cannot make such a statement, with such significant implications, and not provide evidence to support said statement. You said that you expected Anhur to apologize for his actions, but he would have no reason to apologize for them if the accusations were false. I believe you knew this when you made your statements and didn't truly expect Anhur to apologize, rather you planned for him to deny the claims and make himself appear guilty in the process, while you took the position of the martyr and gathered support for this proposal. I've already stated some potential reasons for such a plot, and will not waste time in reiterating them. We have no reason to take you at your word, and there is no place for unfounded accusations in a discussion of such major significance.

[Jenlom]

Can I just point out that this resolution is wrong.

Nowhere does it mention the fact the VF killed Princess Diana, faked the moon landings and told your kids Santa doesn't exist.

[DWAsnia]

Can I just point out that this resolution is wrong.

Nowhere does it mention the fact the VF killed Princess Diana, faked the moon landings and told your kids Santa doesn't exist.

Don't forget killing Kurt Cobain and hiding all the Jews said to be killed by the "Holocaust." These pesky conspiracies are all over the place

[The Leningrad Union]

Can I just point out that this resolution is wrong.

Nowhere does it mention the fact the VF killed Princess Diana, faked the moon landings and told your kids Santa doesn't exist.

Don't forget killing Kurt Cobain and hiding all the Jews said to be killed by the "Holocaust." These pesky conspiracies are all over the place

The holocaust joke went way too far.

[North Campbell Nation]

Strongly against.

This proposal is entirely based on blatant lies and enormous exaggeration. As one who had a puppet in the region during the move, I can say that this liberation is entirely against the will of the natives, and that the password was instituted solely as a defensive measure against turning it into a trophy for raiders. As one who has watched and participated in their elections, the notion of the VF being corrupt and undemocratic are also entirely unfounded.
I think it worth noting that there was serious discussion about commending the VF a few months back for their actions during the zombie apocalypse and general spirit of democracy and international goodwill.

And as far as complaints about the warzones goes, I can safely say, we bear no ill will towards the VF, quite the opposite in fact. At the time, we were grateful to have the warzones secure under de-facto native control with the support of the VF. They asked for advisors from other native-controlled warzones in order to help implement a propper native government where previously the regions had been controlled by raiders. The allegations that these warzones were being repressed under some sort of imperialist raider government sheerly for advertising space is completely unfounded.

As a final note, I should like to say that as a player, I try as hard as possible to avoid the cesspool of WA resolution politicking. The fact that I am compelled to intervene here should be an indicator that something is seriously wrong with this proposal.

[Frattastan II]

This is the younger and immature brother of Liberate Haven.

[DWAsnia]

Don't forget killing Kurt Cobain and hiding all the Jews said to be killed by the "Holocaust." These pesky conspiracies are all over the place

The holocaust joke went way too far.

And this proposal didn't? I can't find a single truth in it. Hell, not even a kernel of the truth.

[Rifty]

The holocaust joke went way too far.

And this proposal didn't? I can't find a single truth in it. Hell, not even a kernel of the truth.

"Recognizing that Versutian Federation was once a large and active region,"

Was that not true

[The Leningrad Union]

The holocaust joke went way too far.

And this proposal didn't? I can't find a single truth in it. Hell, not even a kernel of the truth.

Even if the proposal was false, comparing it to a genocide is fucked up beyond belief. This is NationStates. There is no need to say jokes about the holocaust anywhere, especially just because you are pissed off about a game. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[DWAsnia]

And this proposal didn't? I can't find a single truth in it. Hell, not even a kernel of the truth.

Even if the proposal was false, comparing it to a genocide is fucked up beyond belief. This is NationStates. There is no need to say jokes about the holocaust anywhere, especially just because you are pissed off about a game. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I wasn't making a joke about the Holocaust. I was likening your proposal to equally absurd conspiracy theories.

[Tantricia]

This is clearly made of lies, and we completely support all of it. We shall vote for when it comes to vote.

[United Indochina]

This is clearly made of lies, and we completely support all of it. We shall vote for when it comes to vote.

You serious there?

[Black Mekhet]

For this

[Ratateague]

Further recognizing that Versutian Federation was notorious for raiding Warzones,

Appalled that Versutian Federation acted as a proxy for many disgraced organizations, such as NAZI EUROPE, the Greater German Reich, Macedon, The Black Riders, The Black Hawks and Allied States of EuroIslanders, all of which are condemned by this council,

Noting that in conjunction with Haven, Versutian Federation was responsible for the infamous coup in The South Pacific,

Further noting that Versutian Federation's coup put Milograd into the delegacy, a nation condemned twice by this council,

Realizing that Versutian Federation was evacuated and locked down by force after their founder, Divair had ceased to exist,

Stating that no nation should be forced against their will to leave the region that they are a native of,

Either include a truthful, compelling argument as to why the old Versutian Federation should be liberated, or draft a condemnation. Otherwise, stop wasting the Security Council's time.

Against.

[The Leningrad Union]

Further recognizing that Versutian Federation was notorious for raiding Warzones,

Appalled that Versutian Federation acted as a proxy for many disgraced organizations, such as NAZI EUROPE, the Greater German Reich, Macedon, The Black Riders, The Black Hawks and Allied States of EuroIslanders, all of which are condemned by this council,

Noting that in conjunction with Haven, Versutian Federation was responsible for the infamous coup in The South Pacific,

Further noting that Versutian Federation's coup put Milograd into the delegacy, a nation condemned twice by this council,

Realizing that Versutian Federation was evacuated and locked down by force after their founder, Divair had ceased to exist,

Stating that no nation should be forced against their will to leave the region that they are a native of,

Either include a truthful, compelling argument as to why the old Versutian Federation should be liberated, or draft a condemnation. Otherwise, stop wasting the Security Council's time.

Against.

How are those lies? A password was put in place and the delegate ejected all remaining natives.