[PASSED] End Conversion Therapy

[Figu]

"It is the intent of the Republic to put forth a resolution to return the WA to being about mutual cooperation rather than ideological imperialism. Should that fail, we will have no choice but to withdraw. Know that we will not accept the result if the very likely outcome of it passing becomes reality. If you should attempt to force our nation to submit to this, we will fight back with all due force. If it is economic sanctions, we will trade with non-WA nations. If it is military force, we will retaliate with our nuclear weapons. We do not wish to start a war, but we will fight one to the end."

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

Obraztsova: Ambassador, I don’t want to sound too pessimistic, but I believe that your proposal will be either in violation of far too many resolutions or will not be able to acquire enough support even before the voting. The WA is extremely self-assured, holding little to no regard for the individual status and/or cultural traditions of member states, essentially being a unitari-ish state, the only thing that keeps it from being a truly dictatorial state being the fact that it’s free to leave. That’s one of the main reasons why in a mere two days my delegation will leave this body for good, a decision that in my opinion should’ve been done the moment “Repeal: On Abortion” had passed.

"I am firmly aware of this fact, but we must try. It is our duty to make one last stand here, to make our case known, and ensure that the World Assembly knows that there are nations willing to stand against tyranny. It is unfortunate, but we would be remiss to give up without a fight."

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

[Laka Strolistandiler]

"I am firmly aware of this fact, but we must try. It is our duty to make one last stand here, to make our case known, and ensure that the World Assembly knows that there are nations willing to stand against tyranny. It is unfortunate, but we would be remiss to give up without a fight."

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

Obraztsova: And what will you exactly achieve out of this, Ambassador? Nothing, but a waste of time, yours and other people’s, waste of paper and waste of ink…

[Tsaivao]

"It is sad to see so many justifying this blatant imperialism. This is not a resolution for mutual cooperation. This is a measure designed to force a belief on nations that may not want it. It's like when the Soviet Union set up communist governments in occupied territories. Same ideological motive. I understand I am preaching to the choir here, but I feel I must say something. This is imperialism, plain and simple. What's next, you fund rebels to overthrow our government because we don't think the way you do? You flat out invade? This resolution requires us to give money to people based on WHAT they are, rather than who they are. We oppose this BECAUSE we believe non-discrimination. We don't care what we are, we care WHO you are. We believe in the rights of independent countries to decide their own domestic policies. You would deny them that, based on your own subjective beliefs. Trelliania, for instance, justifies it as 'scientifically based' and 'brutal torture'. It is the opinion of the Republic that it is not Trelliania's choice to make. It is not Tinhampton's, it is not the World Assembly's. It is something for each nation to decide on its own. From the statements of the Separatist Peoples, it is ultimately an act of cultural and ideological imperialism, as they see it only as a stepping stone for their own ideological goals. We stand in solidarity with those who value national self-determination, such as Chiloshia. This is bigger than some rule helping LGBT people, but about an ever-encroaching World Assembly upon the rights of nations within it."

"It is the intent of the Republic to put forth a resolution to return the WA to being about mutual cooperation rather than ideological imperialism. Should that fail, we will have no choice but to withdraw. Know that we will not accept the result if the very likely outcome of it passing becomes reality. If you should attempt to force our nation to submit to this, we will fight back with all due force. If it is economic sanctions, we will trade with non-WA nations. If it is military force, we will retaliate with our nuclear weapons. We do not wish to start a war, but we will fight one to the end."

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

OOC: imagine being willing to start a nuclear war because you can't force kids to go to anti-gay camp. wow, what a glorious nation.

"It is the intent of the Republic to put forth a resolution to return the WA to being about mutual cooperation rather than ideological imperialism. Should that fail, we will have no choice but to withdraw. Know that we will not accept the result if the very likely outcome of it passing becomes reality. If you should attempt to force our nation to submit to this, we will fight back with all due force. If it is economic sanctions, we will trade with non-WA nations. If it is military force, we will retaliate with our nuclear weapons. We do not wish to start a war, but we will fight one to the end."

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

Obraztsova: Ambassador, I don’t want to sound too pessimistic, but I believe that your proposal will be either in violation of far too many resolutions or will not be able to acquire enough support even before the voting. The WA is extremely self-assured, holding little to no regard for the individual status and/or cultural traditions of member states, essentially being a unitari-ish state, the only thing that keeps it from being a truly dictatorial state being the fact that it’s free to leave. That’s one of the main reasons why in a mere two days my delegation will leave this body for good, a decision that in my opinion should’ve been done the moment “Repeal: On Abortion” had passed.

IC: "This is extremely offensive to people who actually live in dictatorial regimes," shouts Delegate Manhu, slamming his wings on the desk and angling his beak down at the Strolistandilerian ambassador to glare at him. "You complain that you are unable to find new and creative ways to oppress the individuals in your society, because an organization that backs the civil liberties of the people to avoid being questioned or perverted from their sexual identity has inconvenienced you personally. You stand here on the platform of restricting the rights of vulnerable people under the guise of 'freedom,' when it is they who are downtrodden by your bullish opposition! This is not a place where you can throw your arms out across the open skies and command manna to fall from the heavens, this is an international assembly which has rules, laws, and a duty to uphold rights that you are too cowardly to uphold. The freedom that you claim to represent is your own freedom, what about the freedom of your people?"

The Vao sits back in his seat, crossing his arms and tilting his head to pop his neck. "I do not see why you need to reiterate time and time over that you desire to leave this assembly. You sound like a rooster crowing at the morning sun, so loud and repetitive. If you truly want to leave, then leave. Nations who will uphold the civil liberties of their people will continue to hold ourselves to adequate standards, and you can feel free to cause whatever abuses your blackened heart desires. There's no need to keep repeating yourself to conflate drama. The door is over there," the Vao said, pointing, "if you're going to use it, then use it."

Manhu then sat up straight and addressed the assembly with a much shorter declaration. "In case it was not obvious, Tsaivao supports this legislation."

[Laka Strolistandiler]

IC: "This is extremely offensive to people who actually live in dictatorial regimes," shouts Delegate Manhu, slamming his wings on the desk and angling his beak down at the Strolistandilerian ambassador to glare at him. "You complain that you are unable to find new and creative ways to oppress the individuals in your society, because an organization that backs the civil liberties of the people to avoid being questioned or perverted from their sexual identity has inconvenienced you personally. You stand here on the platform of restricting the rights of vulnerable people under the guise of 'freedom,' when it is they who are downtrodden by your bullish opposition! This is not a place where you can throw your arms out across the open skies and command manna to fall from the heavens, this is an international assembly which has rules, laws, and a duty to uphold rights that you are too cowardly to uphold. The freedom that you claim to represent is your own freedom, what about the freedom of your people?"

The Vao sits back in his seat, crossing his arms and tilting his head to pop his neck. "I do not see why you need to reiterate time and time over that you desire to leave this assembly. You sound like a rooster crowing at the morning sun, so loud and repetitive. If you truly want to leave, then leave. Nations who will uphold the civil liberties of their people will continue to hold ourselves to adequate standards, and you can feel free to cause whatever abuses your blackened heart desires. There's no need to keep repeating yourself to conflate drama. The door is over there," the Vao said, pointing, "if you're going to use it, then use it."

But Ambassador, we are a dictatorial regime. Our Queen holds little to no legal limitations with the only thing limiting her power is the maintained potential for civil revolt should her power grow too impopular. I’ve pointed out WA behaving like a dictatorial regime because of the hypocrisy that this fact points out- it claims to be a democratic establishment after all. I don’t defend freedom here but the will and the purity of my nation. And to protect these things at the expense of freedom is a trade me and my people are far than willing to make.

Well, I’ve repeated it this time because of Figu’s stated wish to leave. It’s not like this is unrelated to the topic, I hope that you agree.

[Wallenburg]

"I am firmly aware of this fact, but we must try. It is our duty to make one last stand here, to make our case known, and ensure that the World Assembly knows that there are nations willing to stand against tyranny. It is unfortunate, but we would be remiss to give up without a fight."

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

Ogenbond rubs his temples and presses in on his eyebrow. "Bears in the water, can we get through one civil rights bill without someone threatening war? You do realize that you are obligated to obey all World Assembly laws, right? Not just the ones your government likes and therefore was already complying with before it became a member of this organization? Yes, I understand that this impairs the ability of sick people to receive the care they need. This isn't a new issue. The World Assembly is a bit of a mess when it comes to which medical procedures it protects and prohibits. That's no reason to go to fucking war, especially when I doubt you could repel an expeditionary force from even one of our more technologically advanced members."

[Laka Strolistandiler]

"I am firmly aware of this fact, but we must try. It is our duty to make one last stand here, to make our case known, and ensure that the World Assembly knows that there are nations willing to stand against tyranny. It is unfortunate, but we would be remiss to give up without a fight."

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

Ogenbond rubs his temples and presses in on his eyebrow. "Bears in the water, can we get through one civil rights bill without someone threatening war? You do realize that you are obligated to obey all World Assembly laws, right? Not just the ones your government likes and therefore was already complying with before it became a member of this organization? Yes, I understand that this impairs the ability of sick people to receive the care they need. This isn't a new issue. The World Assembly is a bit of a mess when it comes to which medical procedures it protects and prohibits. That's no reason to go to fucking war, especially when I doubt you could repel an expeditionary force from even one of our more technologically advanced members."

I doubt that he’s actually threatening war, Ambassador. I believe that he certainly didn’t read that compliance resolution and because of that is afraid of going to war with the WA as a whole… Additionally, I, personally, don’t believe that giving up without a fight requires to actually repel and invasion force. Dying while trying also qualifies.

[Tsaivao]

IC: "This is extremely offensive to people who actually live in dictatorial regimes," shouts Delegate Manhu, slamming his wings on the desk and angling his beak down at the Strolistandilerian ambassador to glare at him. "You complain that you are unable to find new and creative ways to oppress the individuals in your society, because an organization that backs the civil liberties of the people to avoid being questioned or perverted from their sexual identity has inconvenienced you personally. You stand here on the platform of restricting the rights of vulnerable people under the guise of 'freedom,' when it is they who are downtrodden by your bullish opposition! This is not a place where you can throw your arms out across the open skies and command manna to fall from the heavens, this is an international assembly which has rules, laws, and a duty to uphold rights that you are too cowardly to uphold. The freedom that you claim to represent is your own freedom, what about the freedom of your people?"

The Vao sits back in his seat, crossing his arms and tilting his head to pop his neck. "I do not see why you need to reiterate time and time over that you desire to leave this assembly. You sound like a rooster crowing at the morning sun, so loud and repetitive. If you truly want to leave, then leave. Nations who will uphold the civil liberties of their people will continue to hold ourselves to adequate standards, and you can feel free to cause whatever abuses your blackened heart desires. There's no need to keep repeating yourself to conflate drama. The door is over there," the Vao said, pointing, "if you're going to use it, then use it."

But Ambassador, we are a dictatorial regime. Our Queen holds little to no legal limitations with the only thing limiting her power is the maintained potential for civil revolt should her power grow too impopular. I’ve pointed out WA behaving like a dictatorial regime because of the hypocrisy that this fact points out- it claims to be a democratic establishment after all. I don’t defend freedom here but the will and the purity of my nation. And to protect these things at the expense of freedom is a trade me and my people are far than willing to make.

Well, I’ve repeated it this time because of Figu’s stated wish to leave. It’s not like this is unrelated to the topic, I hope that you agree.

"It is a democratic institution, Ambassador," Manhu said, putting his wings on his beak. "There was a vote. You voted, and now you are losing, and here you are crying tyranny. You made a decision whence you joined this assembly that you would uphold ALL the laws and legislation passed by said assembly unless repealed. You fail to understand that just because your voice lost, this does not mean you are being repressed. You are still able to argue and debate this till the end of your days, you have the capacity to enact your own attempt to change the outcome, and you have the opportunity to walk out. Or, you can be like many of us all, and bite the bullet. Your 'will and purity' mean nothing in the debate or enforcement of law. If you came into this organization expecting your nationality to take precedence over legislation, then I believe you are sorely mistaken."

"The only reason I bring up your desire to abandon the assembly is because of your willingness to espouse it constantly to the assembly present. It quite frankly just sounds like you're backing out the door, and you want to have the last word in with how often you've mentioned this impending countdown like it's the doomsday of your people. All I am stating is that if you intend to leave, please do so discreetly."

[Wallenburg]

"The Vao ambassador addresses the matter quite elegantly. No member state wins every vote. What is left to members is whether or not to behave in a civilized and honorable manner in the face of defeat."

[Laka Strolistandiler]

"It is a democratic institution, Ambassador," Manhu said, putting his wings on his beak. "There was a vote. You voted, and now you are losing, and here you are crying tyranny. You made a decision whence you joined this assembly that you would uphold ALL the laws and legislation passed by said assembly unless repealed. You fail to understand that just because your voice lost, that this means you are being repressed. You are still able to argue and debate this till the end of your days, you have the capacity to enact your own attempt to change the outcome, and you have the opportunity to walk out. Or, you can be like many of us all, and bite the bullet. Your 'will and purity' mean nothing in the debate or enforcement of law. If you came into this organization expecting your nationality to take precedence over legislation, then I believe you are sorely mistaken."

"The only reason I bring up your desire to abandon the assembly is because of your willingness to espouse it constantly to the assembly present. It quite frankly just sounds like you're backing out the door, and you want to have the last word in with how often you've mentioned this impending countdown like it's the doomsday of your people. All I am stating is that if you intend to leave, please do so discreetly."

Ambassador, but holding elections doesn’t necessarily make an institution democratic. Laka too holds referendums to pass all-imperial laws, however this doesn’t make us a democracy or even a republic.

Furthermore, the WA has a lot of elements that make it into a “flawed democracy” as some prefer to call it, for example certain regional delegates holding thousands upon thousands of votes. I hope that you can agree that this is not exactly a good thing…

And will you kindly give me an example of saying that “constantly”? During this discussion I’ve, at most, stated it no more than 3-4 times.

"The Vao ambassador addresses the matter quite elegantly. No member state wins every vote. What is left to members is whether or not to behave in a civilized and honorable manner in the face of defeat."

May I ask you to explain what exactly you mean by “civilized and honorable manner in the face of the defeat?” Because in Laka this means to [REDACTED] yourself to make up for your failure and dishonor…

[Wallenburg]

"The Vao ambassador addresses the matter quite elegantly. No member state wins every vote. What is left to members is whether or not to behave in a civilized and honorable manner in the face of defeat."

May I ask you to explain what exactly you mean by “civilized and honorable manner in the face of the defeat?” Because in Laka this means to [REDACTED] yourself to make up for your failure and dishonor…

"That's about the level of societal intelligence I expected. It seems whenever anyone does anything suboptimally in your nation, they are expected to die. It's a miracle in of itself that you have a society to speak of given your population apparently subscribes to a death cult."

Ogenbond leans back in his chair and stares at the ceiling. "I have failed a lot of times in my military career. More than I care to describe. I'm just lucky those failures were mostly in simulations. That way I could learn from failure and not get any more blood on my hands than absolutely necessary. It seems to me your people don't get to learn from their mistakes. Tell me, ambassador, how will you kill yourself when you fail to keep this resolution from passing? Are you obliged to make it especially painful, or is it merely the termination of your life that you are meant to fear?"

[Laka Strolistandiler]

"That's about the level of societal intelligence I expected. It seems whenever anyone does anything suboptimally in your nation, they are expected to die. It's a miracle in of itself that you have a society to speak of given your population apparently subscribes to a death cult."

Ogenbond leans back in his chair and stares at the ceiling. "I have failed a lot of times in my military career. More than I care to describe. I'm just lucky those failures were mostly in simulations. That way I could learn from failure and not get any more blood on my hands than absolutely necessary. It seems to me your people don't get to learn from their mistakes. Tell me, ambassador, how will you kill yourself when you fail to keep this resolution from passing? Are you obliged to make it especially painful, or is it merely the termination of your life that you are meant to fear?"

Well, that’s one of many definitions… We don’t kill ourselves over each and every single matter, simply because that would be a waste of money, time and human potential. We do value human life, albeit not value it as much as your culture do. However there are certain failures that cannot be redeemed by simply attempting to fix the damages. For example, my pre-predecessor was foolish and weak enough to fall victim to his carnal desires and dishonor our nation- for this he was volunteered into killing himself, to redeem the lost honor.

I served in the military too and failed a couple of times, not just in simulations, but also in combat. The scars that you can see on my face, as well as my a little bit wierd manner of talk are all the results of these failures. Of course, I did learn from them.

I believe that your falsely assumption of Lakans killing themselves whenever they fail comes from my poor choice of wording for which I apologize.

[Bears Armed]

Ogenbond rubs his temples and presses in on his eyebrow. "Bears in the water, can we get through one civil rights bill without someone threatening war?"

"Bears in the water?" murmurs Artorrios. "That's an interesting choice of exclamatory terms. Might I enquire as to its origin?"

[Philimbesi]

Nigel leans over to Manuel. "I do love these resolutions, if only for the amount of office space they tend to clear up when nations stomp their feet, cover their ears and through tightly clenched teeth and pouty lips announce their 'imminent departures'. As if this place is some kind of port. I wonder if it's because the braying of petulant children in their nations actually causes the adults to change their minds."

Manuel nods surveying the hall. "More scotch sir?"

"Yes, it's really the only way to tolerate it all isn't it Manuel? Do keep an eye out for a nice executive chair we can procure should any of these attention starved children actually follow through with their ominous threats to leave. "

"Yes sir."

[Trellania]

"Yes, it's really the only way to tolerate it all isn't it Manuel? Do keep an eye out for a nice executive chair we can procure should any of these attention starved children actually follow through with their ominous threats to leave. "

Alas, as this is said, the unnamed assistant to Dame Allania can be seen wheeling the three nicest chairs of the nations that left down to the new office the nation just stole. Early boar gets the body and all.

[Laka Strolistandiler]

"Yes, it's really the only way to tolerate it all isn't it Manuel? Do keep an eye out for a nice executive chair we can procure should any of these attention starved children actually follow through with their ominous threats to leave. "

Alas, as this is said, the unnamed assistant to Dame Allania can be seen wheeling the three nicest chairs of the nations that left down to the new office the nation just stole. Early boar gets the body and all.

But we didn’t yet… Wha… How… Oh well I guess we’re sharing offices for the rest of our stay here… Say, you like early prayers?

[Cailona]

That's nonsense!
People shouldn't change their gender so why we need conversion therapy so we can back the original gender of the people.

[Trellania]

Alas, as this is said, the unnamed assistant to Dame Allania can be seen wheeling the three nicest chairs of the nations that left down to the new office the nation just stole. Early boar gets the body and all.

But we didn’t yet… Wha… How… Oh well I guess we’re sharing offices for the rest of our stay here… Say, you like early prayers?

The delegation fro Laka Strolistandiler will, alas, find their belongings piled outside in a mailcart... which is promptly stolen by a pirate ship fashioned from mailcarts as it makes its rounds on this floor. The door, of course, is barricaded from the inside.

[Laka Strolistandiler]

But we didn’t yet… Wha… How… Oh well I guess we’re sharing offices for the rest of our stay here… Say, you like early prayers?

The delegation fro Laka Strolistandiler will, alas, find their belongings piled outside in a mailcart... which is promptly stolen by a pirate ship fashioned from mailcarts as it makes its rounds on this floor. The door, of course, is barricaded from the inside.

-Bring forth the guards!
-Ambassador, but we’re not given a guard… We dont deserve it, remember?
-Oh well who cares than! Charge straight ahead!
Obraztsova as well as her one and only other assistant, the translator who was so awful at his job that she often had to overtake it from him pursuit the pirate ship, beginning a boarding party…

[Figu]

OOC: imagine being willing to start a nuclear war because you can't force kids to go to anti-gay camp. wow, what a glorious nation.

"As stated before, this is not about transgenders or the other LGBT groups. Here in Figu, we do not care about your sexual orientation or gender. Same-sex marriage is legal. Polygamy is legal. We, quite frankly, do not give a shit. As stated before, this is about WA overreach."

Obraztsova: And what will you exactly achieve out of this, Ambassador? Nothing, but a waste of time, yours and other people’s, waste of paper and waste of ink…

"You misunderstand. We have a saying here in Figu. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. This is why we make our stance known, and make our case. You may consider it a waste. It may be a waste. However, you must consider there is little alternative to the World Assembly."

OOC: The WA has unique mechanics that do not exist elsewhere. Like in regions, for examples. There is only one World Assembly.

"It is a democratic institution, Ambassador," Manhu said, putting his wings on his beak. "There was a vote. You voted, and now you are losing, and here you are crying tyranny. You made a decision whence you joined this assembly that you would uphold ALL the laws and legislation passed by said assembly unless repealed. You fail to understand that just because your voice lost, this does not mean you are being repressed. You are still able to argue and debate this till the end of your days, you have the capacity to enact your own attempt to change the outcome, and you have the opportunity to walk out. Or, you can be like many of us all, and bite the bullet. Your 'will and purity' mean nothing in the debate or enforcement of law. If you came into this organization expecting your nationality to take precedence over legislation, then I believe you are sorely mistaken."

"The only reason I bring up your desire to abandon the assembly is because of your willingness to espouse it constantly to the assembly present. It quite frankly just sounds like you're backing out the door, and you want to have the last word in with how often you've mentioned this impending countdown like it's the doomsday of your people. All I am stating is that if you intend to leave, please do so discreetly."

"Democracy does not mean freedom. Freedom does not mean democracy. Enlightened despots exist. So too do oppressive democracies. If the majority of people wish to oppress a minority of people, they can (and often do) through democracy. There are no protections for the minority of nations who oppose this blatant overreach. Examples abound throughout history. For instance, any time fascists were elected by democratic vote. Now, I hate to pull out the Hitler argument. Some may say just by bringing it up we have already lost. However, the Nazis were elected by democratic vote. That alone should be proof enough that democracy does not protect against tyranny."

"It is the belief of the Republic that the overall situation may be salvageable, if enough people can agree on the founding purpose of the WA. Not this vote, it is clearly lost, but the WA itself. If it is not, we shall withdraw, but continue to make our voice known. If we are silent, we may as well not exist."

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

[CoraSpia]

((OOC: sometimes I hate my IC nation.))

IC:
"Unfortunately, the Haven is unable to support the proposal as written. Although we applaud its intent as well as its impact on protecting minors from coercive and often dangerous practices, the Haven will always be unwilling to sanction limitations on medical procedures performed on adults at the request of said adult, regardless of their success rate. For this reason we are sadly opposed, however would be willing to support a replacement if exceptions were made for willing adult participants."

[Wallenburg]

"Democracy does not mean freedom. Freedom does not mean democracy. Enlightened despots exist. So too do oppressive democracies.

"Well that's a fucking lie," laughs Ogenbond. "Democracy is freedom in practice. 'Enlightened despots' only exist in tales told to children by counterrevolutionaries, and oppressive democracies are not truly democracies without freedom in the government, freedom in the workplace, and freedom in the community."

If the majority of people wish to oppress a minority of people, they can (and often do) through democracy. There are no protections for the minority of nations who oppose this blatant overreach. Examples abound throughout history. For instance, any time fascists were elected by democratic vote. Now, I hate to pull out the Hitler argument. Some may say just by bringing it up we have already lost. However, the Nazis were elected by democratic vote. That alone should be proof enough that democracy does not protect against tyranny."

"Look, I don't know who this Hitler fellow is, or why he makes such unpalatable arguments as to argue fascists take power democratically, but he's wrong. I would advise Mr. Hitler that fascists always use violence and autocracy, not democracy, to obtain power. It seems far more likely that these Nazis established a democratic foothold that wasn't getting any bigger, then used their limited power to coup the government, establish various 'emergency powers' that were never returned to the people, and ultimately ban any other political parties. Does that sound like democracy to you?"

"It is the belief of the Republic that the overall situation may be salvageable, if enough people can agree on the founding purpose of the WA. Not this vote, it is clearly lost, but the WA itself. If it is not, we shall withdraw, but continue to make our voice known. If we are silent, we may as well not exist."

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

"The founding purpose of the World Assembly is to make the world better one resolution at a time. I'm rather certain the author believes that they are doing so, your or my opinion aside."

[Wallenburg]

Ogenbond rubs his temples and presses in on his eyebrow. "Bears in the water, can we get through one civil rights bill without someone threatening war?"

"Bears in the water?" murmurs Artorrios. "That's an interesting choice of exclamatory terms. Might I enquire as to its origin?"

"As I am sure you know, Ambassador, bears are excellent swimmers, at least compared to humanoids. It's an old river saying that means a dangerous, chaotic mess that you have little hope of getting out of."

[Figu]

"Democracy does not mean freedom. Freedom does not mean democracy. Enlightened despots exist. So too do oppressive democracies.

"Well that's a fucking lie," laughs Ogenbond. "Democracy is freedom in practice. 'Enlightened despots' only exist in tales told to children by counterrevolutionaries, and oppressive democracies are not truly democracies without freedom in the government, freedom in the workplace, and freedom in the community."

"Ah, the No-True-Highlander argument. It isn't TRUE democracy if it does things I don't like. The only thing that determines whether or not the thing you are talking about is a democracy is whether people get to vote for things. That is its very definition."

"Look, I don't know who this Hitler fellow is, or why he makes such unpalatable arguments as to argue fascists take power democratically, but he's wrong. I would advise Mr. Hitler that fascists always use violence and autocracy, not democracy, to obtain power. It seems far more likely that these Nazis established a democratic foothold that wasn't getting any bigger, then used their limited power to coup the government, establish various 'emergency powers' that were never returned to the people, and ultimately ban any other political parties. Does that sound like democracy to you?"

"The point is that democracies can become centralized autocracies through their very own systems of elections and legislation. Hitler was elected as head of state via a democratic coalition. He and his party used their democratic mandate to swiftly take over the nation and start a huge war."

"You may claim that this proposal is only trying to make the world better, but at some point it's going to cross a line of no return. When you finally finish your purges, you will find that the 'World Assembly' is more like 'The Assembly of Ideologically Aligned Nations' and not at all representative of the world at large."

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

[Wallenburg]

"Well that's a fucking lie," laughs Ogenbond. "Democracy is freedom in practice. 'Enlightened despots' only exist in tales told to children by counterrevolutionaries, and oppressive democracies are not truly democracies without freedom in the government, freedom in the workplace, and freedom in the community."

"Ah, the No-True-Highlander argument. It isn't TRUE democracy if it does things I don't like. The only thing that determines whether or not the thing you are talking about is a democracy is whether people get to vote for things. That is its very definition."

"No, that is not the definition of democracy. People living under an absolute monarch are not actually living in a democracy because the monarch's privy council votes on various items. I will repeat to you the actual definition of democracy: freedom in the government, freedom in the workplace, and freedom in the community."

"The point is that democracies can become centralized autocracies through their very own systems of elections and legislation. Hitler was elected as head of state via a democratic coalition. He and his party used their democratic mandate to swiftly take over the nation and start a huge war."

OOC: Hitler was not elected chancellor, he was appointed so by the president. He didn't use a "democratic mandate" to take over, he used armed thugs and the emergency powers he got using those armed thugs.

"You may claim that this proposal is only trying to make the world better, but at some point it's going to cross a line of no return. When you finally finish your purges, you will find that the 'World Assembly' is more like 'The Assembly of Ideologically Aligned Nations' and not at all representative of the world at large."

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

OOC: Oh, fucking please. Prohibiting the torture of trans people isn't even in the same zip code as political purges. Quit the melodrama.

[Trellania]

"No, that is not the definition of democracy. People living under an absolute monarch are not actually living in a democracy because the monarch's privy council votes on various items. I will repeat to you the actual definition of democracy: freedom in the government, freedom in the workplace, and freedom in the community."

"May I please point out that not all absolute monarchies have even that level of political freedom?"