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[RULE CHANGE] Ideological Ban

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Honeydewistania
Minister
 
Posts: 3397
Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:09 am

Fachumonn wrote:
Quintessence of Dust wrote:This is the WA, it has nothing to do with gameplay.

Not entirely true, I'd like to point out. It seems many mainstay GA members neglect the fact that there is in fact another chamber...

You don't want to get QoD started on the chamber-that-shall-not-be-named (well, can't be named)


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Fachumonn
Diplomat
 
Posts: 981
Founded: Apr 11, 2021
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Fachumonn » Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:23 am

Honeydewistania wrote:
Fachumonn wrote:Not entirely true, I'd like to point out. It seems many mainstay GA members neglect the fact that there is in fact another chamber...

You don't want to get QoD started on the chamber-that-shall-not-be-named (well, can't be named)

Duly noted.


WA Ambassador: The People | Pronouns: He/Him/His/They/Them/Their | RL Ideology: Libertarian Socialism/Anarcho-Communism | GP Alignment: Independent, Leans Defender

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Desmosthenes and Burke
Diplomat
 
Posts: 524
Founded: Oct 07, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Desmosthenes and Burke » Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:33 am

While I am not thrilled, I cannot come up with any sound reason to keep a rule that (1)GenSec flatly admits they have less than zero interest in enforcing, (2) cannot possibly be enforced in an objective and even manner, and (3) would essentially prohibit the GA from passing any resolution at all if any real attempt was made at enforcement in an objective and even manner.
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Jutsa
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5451
Founded: Dec 06, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Jutsa » Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:17 pm

Desmosthenes and Burke wrote:While I am not thrilled, I cannot come up with any sound reason to keep a rule that (1)GenSec flatly admits they have less than zero interest in enforcing, (2) cannot possibly be enforced in an objective and even manner, and (3) would essentially prohibit the GA from passing any resolution at all if any real attempt was made at enforcement in an objective and even manner.

Afraid I'll have to ditto this. Not that my opinion matters, as I'm a wholly irrelevant and frankly expendable side character at the best of times, but if this assembly can already prohibit practices like abortion and ritual sacrifice then I see no reason it couldn't outright ban communism or statism or liberalism or whatever darned well ism the majority doesn't like at the time. Heck, it could ban anti-GA-ism ... or even GA-ism if it so wished. Might be a worthwhile idea for someone to work on drafting for next april fools day :p
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Ainocra
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Posts: 1394
Founded: Sep 20, 2009
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ainocra » Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:16 am

In my view this would present a whole host of issues best neatly avoided by leaving the rule in place. I vote for what we have now, rule in the books with little to no enforcement
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Martzbrieg
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 6
Founded: Jun 16, 2022
New York Times Democracy

Questions from a Newbie

Postby Martzbrieg » Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:06 am

So, what would this proposal entail (i.e.) ramifications of this proposal leading to a watershed/domino effect?

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Blacks future
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Jun 08, 2022
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Blacks future » Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:20 am

Am against the Rule Change

main purpose behind an ideology is to offer either change in society, or adherence to a set of ideals where conformity already exists, through a normative thought process

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Nadia-Greisburg
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 13
Founded: Mar 30, 2022
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nadia-Greisburg » Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:17 am

OOC: Removing this will likely lead to domination of the World Assembly by communist proposals from the over-WA populated bloc known as "NSLeft". Literally the only counterweight would be WALL, because of the North Pacific. I don't see them going against the NSLeft bloc soon.
Last edited by Nadia-Greisburg on Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Untecna
Senator
 
Posts: 3943
Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Untecna » Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:21 am

The last two posters here clearly have no idea how impossible ideological proposals passing would be.
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Hegvanigson
Attaché
 
Posts: 68
Founded: Feb 03, 2022
Father Knows Best State

Postby Hegvanigson » Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:21 am

So.. fascism will be allowed?
What's up?
test..checking Hegvanigson..
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Untecna
Senator
 
Posts: 3943
Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Untecna » Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:24 am

Hegvanigson wrote:So.. fascism will be allowed?

It's not outlawed by the WA as of current, but ideological proposals have never actually passed, so... I doubt there would be any ban at all in the WA.
Californian

Dragon with internet access

Unironically still in NSG discussions, now turned to slight shitposting to make it fun for everyone else me and me only.

I'm queer

Heloin's, perhaps, unwanted accountant

Don't use my old posts to judge me, I was cringe af

Naan Violence, y'all.

Political Beliefs
TL;DR: I'm a democratic socialist. Surprise Surprise, I don't support genocide or violence.

Go 49rs

Untecna wrote:No, and you can talk to my dragon lawyers if you dragon want me to dragon shut up.

Hemakral wrote:damn bro that wall so thick kool-aid man couldn't bust through

[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.

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Wallenburg
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22091
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Wallenburg » Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:47 am

Untecna wrote:
Hegvanigson wrote:So.. fascism will be allowed?

It's not outlawed by the WA as of current, but ideological proposals have never actually passed, so... I doubt there would be any ban at all in the WA.

This is a very bad argument. "Ideological proposals", whatever the hell that means, have never passed because they are illegal, not because they are unpopular. To cite the history of the WA, throughout which they have been illegal, as evidence for their lack of viability in a future legal setting is to speculate based on nothing but your own personal feelings about them.
I want to improve.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
Kiu Ghesik wrote:harris' interpretation of bidenism and subsequent establishment of a bidenist vanguard party to root out malarkey and revisionist elements in society was revisionist in and of itself and should never have been implemented.

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Untecna
Senator
 
Posts: 3943
Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Untecna » Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:29 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Untecna wrote:It's not outlawed by the WA as of current, but ideological proposals have never actually passed, so... I doubt there would be any ban at all in the WA.

This is a very bad argument. "Ideological proposals", whatever the hell that means, have never passed because they are illegal, not because they are unpopular. To cite the history of the WA, throughout which they have been illegal, as evidence for their lack of viability in a future legal setting is to speculate based on nothing but your own personal feelings about them.

"Ideological proposal" refers here to any proposal that involves banning ideologies or enforcing ideologies. Pretty simple meaning.

I never explicitly stated that they were not unpopular, and wherever you're getting that from, I'd like to know. Anyway, the fact that they are illegal now and often poorly made, as well as being first attempts by newbies, is a combination of why they have not been passed now and likely will not pass in the future.

If you look at the proposals that were stopped at this rule, loads were terribly written and by general newbies in the WA, who didn't know any better.

I'm speculating based on what actually pops out of this tiny area of the WA, not my "feelings" about said proposals.
Californian

Dragon with internet access

Unironically still in NSG discussions, now turned to slight shitposting to make it fun for everyone else me and me only.

I'm queer

Heloin's, perhaps, unwanted accountant

Don't use my old posts to judge me, I was cringe af

Naan Violence, y'all.

Political Beliefs
TL;DR: I'm a democratic socialist. Surprise Surprise, I don't support genocide or violence.

Go 49rs

Untecna wrote:No, and you can talk to my dragon lawyers if you dragon want me to dragon shut up.

Hemakral wrote:damn bro that wall so thick kool-aid man couldn't bust through

[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.

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Wallenburg
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22091
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Wallenburg » Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:40 pm

Untecna wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:This is a very bad argument. "Ideological proposals", whatever the hell that means, have never passed because they are illegal, not because they are unpopular. To cite the history of the WA, throughout which they have been illegal, as evidence for their lack of viability in a future legal setting is to speculate based on nothing but your own personal feelings about them.

I never explicitly stated that they were not unpopular, and wherever you're getting that from, I'd like to know.

From the plain fact that unpopularity is the only possible argument for the future unviability of an entire category of legal proposals.
Anyway, the fact that they are illegal now and often poorly made, as well as being first attempts by newbies, is a combination of why they have not been passed now and likely will not pass in the future.

If you look at the proposals that were stopped at this rule, loads were terribly written and by general newbies in the WA, who didn't know any better.

This is the very bad argument that I am criticizing. That they are illegal now does not mean they will fail when they are legal. That's just an absurd argument. Furthermore, that they are often poorly made by inexperienced authors is a product of their current categorical illegality; experienced authors will not put great effort into something that is obviously illegal. Once the illegality vanishes, the behaviors that result from it will as well.
I'm speculating based on what actually pops out of this tiny area of the WA, not my "feelings" about said proposals.

I was wrong that your claims were drawn solely from your feelings. They are, as it turns out, also drawn from a failure to recognize that the conditions that exist under one ruleset are not the same that will exist under a different ruleset.
Last edited by Wallenburg on Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I want to improve.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
Kiu Ghesik wrote:harris' interpretation of bidenism and subsequent establishment of a bidenist vanguard party to root out malarkey and revisionist elements in society was revisionist in and of itself and should never have been implemented.

King of Snark, Minister of World Assembly Affairs, Arbiter for The East Pacific

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Quintessence of Dust
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1870
Founded: Nov 21, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Quintessence of Dust » Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:43 pm

Untecna wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:This is a very bad argument. "Ideological proposals", whatever the hell that means, have never passed because they are illegal, not because they are unpopular. To cite the history of the WA, throughout which they have been illegal, as evidence for their lack of viability in a future legal setting is to speculate based on nothing but your own personal feelings about them.

"Ideological proposal" refers here to any proposal that involves banning ideologies or enforcing ideologies. Pretty simple meaning.

What's an ideology?
The fight is long and tough, but together, we can make it. -- José Carlos Mariátegui

Two kinds of pork in one soup? Bring it on. -- Christina Hendricks

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Laka Strolistandiler
Senator
 
Posts: 4037
Founded: Jul 14, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Laka Strolistandiler » Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:43 pm

Anne of Cleves in TNP wrote:
Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Good thing I left a year ago lol WA majors enforcing their values on everyone instance #53537483

I’ll just quote my response to someone who made a similar remark:
Anne of Cleves in TNP wrote:I disagree, since the WA has to intervene ICly to establish important international laws and opinions on nations/regions that are crucial to keeping the multiverse sane or crucial for recognizing nations/regions with good or bad reputations. For example, if the GA did not intervene in the civil rights category, who will? If national law is made on civil rights, people will still violate that law regardless, yet are less likely to violate international law on civil rights (maybe). And OOCly, the WA staff has to maintain the OOC laws for proposals, otherwise there would be thousands of low-quality and possibly offensive resolutions and the WA would be an anarchic mess.

TLDR: The WA can be considered invasive, but if so, it’s for good reasons ICly and OOCly

Such as? IC’ly we left because of that conversion therapy proposal banning it outright because of said therapy being “ineffective” and “clearly anti-scientific” which is intrusive because there is plenty of FT or PMT nations where this is technologically feasible.

And yes, people are not less likely to violate international law.
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