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[PASSED] Repeal Commend The Holy Principality of Saint Mark

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Comfed
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Postby Comfed » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:54 pm

Nova Vandalia wrote:TNP supported one of their owns and of course it wasn't close Gorundu is well liked there. Acting like TNP's process is completely impartial though is ridiculous, no regions is. Regions tend to back up Nations in them when it come to resolutions. YA region want to see it's own people succeed. I'm not saying TNP would have been an against vote if Gorundu wasn't a part of TNP, but I do feel like the conversation would have been closer and maybe actually worth the time and effort to have attempted to sway and change their vote.

False. Maybe it works that way in your region but not in TNP. This proposal was passed in TNP because TNPers thought the original resolution was bad, not because it was authored by Gorundu.
I'm not accusing them of foul play, just that being well liked in TNP, the region with you know the Endo count equal to like the next 2 GCR's combined, and with influence on how the rest of WALL votes is advantageous because of personal politics.
As Praetor has said, WALL had little to do with it.
Is it the only reason this passed no, did it help add to the count, show momentum, influence how other regions voted absolutely and to deny that would be ridiculous.

Emphasis mine - this is an interesting claim. Other regions are sovereign and I don't think they take our vote into consideration. Might you give examples of regions that you think were "influenced" by TNP?
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:13 pm

Comfed wrote:False. Maybe it works that way in your region but not in TNP. This proposal was passed in TNP because TNPers thought the original resolution was bad, not because it was authored by Gorundu./

I have two disagreements with this statement. 1st maybe I wasn't clear, I'm not saying this is intentional at least for everyone, people in general tend to support the groups they're a part of consciously or otherwise. I mean how well are y'all's in house records? I'd really love to see if your statement does stack up. To see if you all don't vote for proposals by TNP members are a higher rate than non TNP citizen proposals. Send me the info unfiltered I'll happily crunch em.

Secondly, everyone here knows for a fact you don't always just vote on merit. Otherwise TB would have gotten his Commend, no you all took outside information and considered it because you all were open to that information from an outside source. I and this is just my opinion don't think you all would have been open for this consideration.




My point with this one isn't that it's intentional. I think you're right that they don't consider your vote. The small regions that make up a large portion of the vote don't sit down and consider what TNP is doing. I think because they're often times not involved in as deep as GP at a lot of the larger regions GRC and UCR that they care as deeply about GP commends, so they and I have been in regions that do this just go with the majority at the time they look. It just so happens that due to your sheer numbers along with WALL that most of the time you all set this. I mean the closeness of Recommend often coincides with y'all being undecided for a while or changing your opinion, I mean that can't be by pure luck.

I'm not trying to claim you all are some SC cabal, and I'm sorry if it has come out that way. What I am saying though is that Authors who are active in TNP have an advantage, some of it implicit like above and some explicit by having resources like WALL.
Last edited by Nova Vandalia on Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gorundu
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Postby Gorundu » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:21 pm

I think you'll do well to remember that the original commendation passed despite TNP voting against it. TNP doesn't really have anything to do with this.
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:44 pm

Refuge Isle wrote:In my capacity as deputy minister in TEP, I am obliged to point out that this is an extraordinary exaggeration. I recently created a dispatch which lists delegates by voting power. TSP and TEP are giants in their own right, even if TNP is larger. All three supported the repeal. For TEP's stance, not that voting against TWP needed much help but the quorum raiding was a factor in developing the vote determination


TEP is yes, but again TEP has also be very Anti-Anything even slightly related to TWP, so you all weren't even close to be a swing by any consideration. Stating Not Quorum Raiding wouldn't have changed there vote isn't a full truth either. Anyone who even half pays attention to GP politics would have predicted TEP's vote. I understand you're trying to save them face and that's cool, but like it's blatant what they're going to do from the first moment.

Refuge Isle wrote: In a private capacity, I will note that it was a factor in determining Refugia's vote, for what those 50-100 votes matter to you. But those are the places I'm somewhat involved in enough to know.


It does matter to me, personally, but not for reasons I care to discuss on the GP forum, but to the actual cause it wasn't 50-100 that mattered. If I had thought it would been close then I probably would have played it differently and not joined in and even argued against the raids. But based on TNP's likely hood of voting for as well as TEP and TSP's Quorum Denial was the best possible route to a success, and when I'm going to bat for a friend I do everything in my means. I didn't just do Quorum denials. I argued (which I admit I'm not great at I argue from a place of emotionality), I campaigned (actually had some success in this regards, but not to the level of keeping it safely away from quorum). I did everything I could because Halo is a genuine friend to me and is a player I feel deserves a commendation, but I'm not good at arguing or writing so fighting to keep the one he had is all I could offer. I understood my tactics might upset some people, but those people when it come to purpose at hand weren't really going to matter.

Refuge Isle wrote:While it's also true that people will often vote with what side is winning, this may at times be misleading anecdotal observations. Many regions are happy to support the positions of their delegate, or support how their WA department feels a proposal matches up to its expectations and ideals. Their independent votes are still valuable.


I agree, that it's not true in ever case, but I feel fairly confident in saying that when it comes to most GP SC's it not the majority of times by any means, because it's actually a very small group involved in GP compared to all the other niches.
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:00 pm

Gorundu wrote:I think you'll do well to remember that the original commendation passed despite TNP voting against it. TNP doesn't really have anything to do with this.


Which by far is a rare circumstance and out of the norm. Again I'm not sitting her accusing TNP of being some awful Cabal cloaked in shadows controlling the SC with puppet strings. If that's what you're getting then you're misinterpreting my point. All I'm saying it helps to be in TNP to pass things most of the time, and that I am willing to double check that, if y'all have that information and feel like it would be ok to make available other wise acting like it's not a convince of membership.

And I personal do feel like TNP is more likely to listen to outside voices when it comes a member nation of their isn't directly involved in, because of course they're going to trust one of their own over outsiders. Which isn't a bad thing, I'm not accusing it of being malicious, it's what group do it just so happen y'all are the biggest. I feel like out of the big three WAD power y'all also tend to be the most reasonable, but this time the likelihood you would open to a conversation was lesser, because you all do what any group does.

Like I don't get why are y'all upset at this idea, have you all never heard of implicit biases before? Group Think? Herd Mentality? These aren't crazy new conspiracies I just thought up (like some of the other things I have said in previous posts).
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:03 pm

Praeceps wrote:I don't think you understand my point. The original commendation was opposed internally with only one vote For, everyone else either was Against, Abstain, or Present; it was authored by TUMS who at that time was not a citizen of TNP. The repeal received four Against and was authored by, as you mentioned, Gorundu, a TNP citizen. So, in this case, despite the author being a TNPer, there was actually less support from TNP for the resolution compared to the opposition originally which is contrary to your position that if the author was from a different region that there would have been less support for the repeal.

Additionally, the influence that Gorundu seems to have had on WALL is... non-existent? Balder voted Against. Europeia initially voted For and then withdrew their vote. Europe didn't vote. The IDU didn't vote.


Right do you think those who voted for the repeal where wholly swayed solely on the merit or is the fact that Gorundu is a likeable chap?

Again I'm not saying it's devious or explicit, hell I even said I'd do the same.
Last edited by Nova Vandalia on Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gorundu
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Postby Gorundu » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:25 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
Praeceps wrote:I don't think you understand my point. The original commendation was opposed internally with only one vote For, everyone else either was Against, Abstain, or Present; it was authored by TUMS who at that time was not a citizen of TNP. The repeal received four Against and was authored by, as you mentioned, Gorundu, a TNP citizen. So, in this case, despite the author being a TNPer, there was actually less support from TNP for the resolution compared to the opposition originally which is contrary to your position that if the author was from a different region that there would have been less support for the repeal.

Additionally, the influence that Gorundu seems to have had on WALL is... non-existent? Balder voted Against. Europeia initially voted For and then withdrew their vote. Europe didn't vote. The IDU didn't vote.


Right do you think those who voted for the repeal where wholly swayed solely on the merit or is the fact that Gorundu is a likeable chap?

Again I'm not saying it's devious or explicit, hell I even said I'd do the same.

Well I'm flattered by being called a "likeable chap" :p

Anyway, I know implicit bias and all that, but they don't really apply here because me being in TNP doesn't really have anything to do with this resolution passing. Securing large Delegates' votes is the easiest way to guarantee a resolution passes, but just one is never enough. In this case, there was a clear combination of them, each for perhaps slightly different reasons, but very little of it was personal influence, or even TNP influence.
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Refuge Isle
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Postby Refuge Isle » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:04 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:Stating Not Quorum Raiding wouldn't have changed there vote isn't a full truth either. Anyone who even half pays attention to GP politics would have predicted TEP's vote. I understand you're trying to save them face and that's cool, but like it's blatant what they're going to do from the first moment.

Likewise, anyone who has spent any amount of time around me would be able to know that I'm not interested in political posturing and I never have been, I am interested in facts, stats, and stat trends. I was relaying the contents of the discussion in the ministry, in which the quorum raid was a notable sticking point, with the acknowledgement that TEP needed little encouragement to support it. This was as a response to your claim that the quorum raid had zero influence in people's votes. This situation is, at the very least, an effect with a value higher than zero. That's all.

Nova Vandalia wrote:I did everything I could because Halo is a genuine friend to me and is a player I feel deserves a commendation, but I'm not good at arguing or writing so fighting to keep the one he had is all I could offer. I understood my tactics might upset some people, but those people when it come to purpose at hand weren't really going to matter.

As you wish, although it's beyond me to understand why the commendation being repealed on grounds of inaccuracy and being poorly researched is such a personal slight. Kuriko's commendation, passed at the height of fanfare in the aftermath of the SecGen campaign was also poorly constructed with minimal apparent research, repealed and replaced. I would think that rather than defending a resolution which does not adequately represent the nominee, a better use of time and energy would be to create a replacement which does.

Nova Vandalia wrote:I agree, that it's not true in ever case, but I feel fairly confident in saying that when it comes to most GP SC's it not the majority of times by any means, because it's actually a very small group involved in GP compared to all the other niches.

My only point was to indicate that it's unfair to say that against votes were a lemming effect when the West targetted a lot of smaller regions, individually, to quorum raid. It's unlikely that those regions would turn around and support the West's interests, especially after a dedicated campaign relaying what was going on.
Last edited by Refuge Isle on Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:50 am

Refuge Isle wrote:Likewise, anyone who has spent any amount of time around me would be able to know that I'm not interested in political posturing and I never have been, I am interested in facts, stats, and stat trends. I was relaying the contents of the discussion in the ministry, in which the quorum raid was a notable sticking point, with the acknowledgement that TEP needed little encouragement to support it. This was as a response to your claim that the quorum raid had zero influence in people's votes. This situation is, at the very least, an effect with a value higher than zero. That's all.


Fine, functionally 0 on the outcome of the vote. It's that more specific for you?

Refuge Isle wrote:As you wish, although it's beyond me to understand why the commendation being repealed on grounds of inaccuracy and being poorly researched is such a personal slight. Kuriko's commendation, passed at the height of fanfare in the aftermath of the SecGen campaign was also poorly constructed with minimal apparent research, repealed and replaced. I would think that rather than defending a resolution which does not adequately represent the nominee, a better use of time and energy would be to create a replacement which does.


You want to know why? Because it was personal to me. Halo is a friend, an actual friend. Halo is the type of player who cares about the player behind the computer. He checked on me when I had to take a sabbatical to take care of my grandmother when she got the Flu in March. Wherever he goes he inspires a culture of deep caring and connection among the communities. He goes beyond the game, a game he has spent almost 5 years on, developing more than just "IC" relationships, he's added a thing to the community that goes beyond that, that the SC refuses to recognize. So this commendation was a stand in, for all of that personal support, that YES is special among NS. I'm not a writer, I'm shit at technical arguments, and no replacement was offered. So I don't care what kind of dress the award was in, it was who had it that mattered to me, and I know damn well I don't have the skill or ability to write a replacement, one that wasn't offered by anyone else, one that if it is written is still going to leave out the reason I feel he's commendable because being supportive to the actual hundreds of folx he's met and talked with in over 6+ regions for over 4+ years is in inexpressable, and not valid in the SC so it was a surrogate commend.

Anyone who has spent a little time around me knows I care about the players. I'd go to bat and fight tooth and nail for the friends I've made in this game. I stayed up till 2 in the morning when I had to work the that day and get up at 6 AM. It's how I function, and I'm not some big player, some massive WAD, I don't want to be that not how I play NS, so I did what I could.

Imho Kuriko deserved one and should of kept it, Kuriko is a very nice person who has done a lot of the game. Hell, her and Alk were two of the best WAD's XKI had in a long time, but instead we punished her because an author was bad, with no thought as a community how it affected them and their experience of the game, someone who is well liked and well respected in almost every circle of the game.

Refuge Isle wrote:My only point was to indicate that it's unfair to say that against votes were a lemming effect when the West targeted a lot of smaller regions, individually, to quorum raid. It's unlikely that those regions would turn around and support the West's interests, especially after a dedicated campaign relaying what was going on.


The regions they targeted had less voting power collectively than Refugia, They' would have be equal to maybe at best a 1/100th of the vote, the vote didn't "functionally" matter, the quorum did, and it was going to be guaranteed to reach quorum without the effort.

The vote may have mattered if we thought we could have convinced larger regions but as you point out TEP was going to be a hard sell no, TNP was in the same boat no, as was TSP and XKI. So that 1/100th did not matter, but considering that all Quorum Approvals are equal despite WAD power, the approvals did. The Quorum Approval of a small region is as important as TNP's or TEP's, or Refugia, their vote not so much.
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:57 am

Gorundu wrote: Again I'm not saying it's devious or explicit, hell I even said I'd do the same. Well I'm flattered by being called a "likeable chap" :p


I had a blast working with you during Raidercon and we have raided together I mean I do vehemently disagree with this resolution but it passed. >.>
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Postby Honeydewistania » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:08 am

If I recall correctly, Kuriko asked Morover to repeal the commend
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Comfed
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Postby Comfed » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:36 am

Yeah, it’s not uncommon to ask for your C/C to be replaced if you think the quality is poor.
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Postby Praeceps » Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:40 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
Praeceps wrote:I don't think you understand my point. The original commendation was opposed internally with only one vote For, everyone else either was Against, Abstain, or Present; it was authored by TUMS who at that time was not a citizen of TNP. The repeal received four Against and was authored by, as you mentioned, Gorundu, a TNP citizen. So, in this case, despite the author being a TNPer, there was actually less support from TNP for the resolution compared to the opposition originally which is contrary to your position that if the author was from a different region that there would have been less support for the repeal.

Additionally, the influence that Gorundu seems to have had on WALL is... non-existent? Balder voted Against. Europeia initially voted For and then withdrew their vote. Europe didn't vote. The IDU didn't vote.


Right do you think those who voted for the repeal where wholly swayed solely on the merit or is the fact that Gorundu is a likeable chap?

Again I'm not saying it's devious or explicit, hell I even said I'd do the same.

There's a lot in your recent posts that I would like to address but I'll just address this direct quote in the interest of not repeatedly bumping this old thread. I would love to continue the discussion on the WA Discord server if you'd like.

You're given only two options for influencing decision-making when many more exist (eg. voting based on a coin flip, by non-compliance, based on who else is voting, etc.). Personally, in the SC, I've never voted based on the author (unless they're fascist/OOC problematic). I find it hard to believe that there was a significant portion of voters in TNP who voted For based on the author, based on the number of votes that were now Against, it seems more accurate to say that the proposal was hampered by individuals dislike for Gorundu.

Lastly, you do seem to be quite concerned about biases influencing how regions vote. I will note that multiple individuals determining how someone votes reduces the risk of bias affecting the vote compared to a region where only one individual decides how to vote. ;)
Last edited by Praeceps on Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:14 am

Praeceps wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:
Right do you think those who voted for the repeal where wholly swayed solely on the merit or is the fact that Gorundu is a likeable chap?

Again I'm not saying it's devious or explicit, hell I even said I'd do the same.

There's a lot in your recent posts that I would like to address but I'll just address this direct quote in the interest of not repeatedly bumping this old thread. I would love to continue the discussion on the WA Discord server if you'd like.

You're given only two options for influencing decision-making when many more exist (eg. voting based on a coin flip, by non-compliance, based on who else is voting, etc.). Personally, in the SC, I've never voted based on the author (unless they're fascist/OOC problematic). I find it hard to believe that there was a significant portion of voters in TNP who voted For based on the author, based on the number of votes that were now Against, it seems more accurate to say that the proposal was hampered by individuals dislike for Gorundu.

Lastly, you do seem to be quite concerned about biases influencing how regions vote. I will note that multiple individuals determining how someone votes reduces the risk of bias affecting the vote compared to a region where only one individual decides how to vote. ;)


I'd gladly join and continue the discussion but since by a few folks I've been asked to literally "shut up", by regular SC goers in other threads. I'm not sure the server would be as welcoming to my presence as you are. Thank you for engaging me though.
Last edited by Nova Vandalia on Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:10 am

I'm struggling to understand why people are still bothering to engage in debate after this passed.

Commend Saint Mark was a blatantly biased resolution that played up the largely non-existent accomplishment of a player who was really good at just being "there". I feel that the Repeal addressed major issues with the original proposal, which I can attest first hand to being overblown in regards to the significance of St Mark's TEP contributions. I think a case can certainly be made for Commending St Mark. I do not think that resolution was even remotely the case to bring forward, and the continued sour grapes from some here feels in pretty bad faith to me. If you truly want St Mark to be Commended, and believe they deserve it, you should strive to see a resolution that lists out a more convincing and honest case for that commendation.
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:03 am

Tim-Opolis wrote:I'm struggling to understand why people are still bothering to engage in debate after this passed.

Commend Saint Mark was a blatantly biased resolution that played up the largely non-existent accomplishment of a player who was really good at just being "there". I feel that the Repeal addressed major issues with the original proposal, which I can attest first hand to being overblown in regards to the significance of St Mark's TEP contributions. I think a case can certainly be made for Commending St Mark. I do not think that resolution was even remotely the case to bring forward, and the continued sour grapes from some here feels in pretty bad faith to me. If you truly want St Mark to be Commended, and believe they deserve it, you should strive to see a resolution that lists out a more convincing and honest case for that commendation.

The problem is what you're suggesting would actually require effort, rather than attempting to intimidate and punch down at weaker or "lesser" regions like mine via Quorum raids and accusations that we should be ashamed for not voting the "right" way.

Also, thank you for defending my region. You (The Grey Wardens) guys stopped at least one of the raids against my region when I wasn't able to be online to boot the raiders.
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:49 am

Tim-Opolis wrote:Commend Saint Mark was a blatantly biased resolution that played up the largely non-existent accomplishment of a player who was really good at just being "there".

Hey it takes a lot of work to just be there at the right time, you have to know where 'there' is :P
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