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[Passed] Rights of the Quarantined

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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:26 am

The Atlae Isles wrote:
The Manticoran Empire wrote:Mr. Williamsen, a quarantine regulation that doesn't cover the disposal of materials involved is like a nuclear disarmament treaty that doesn't cover the disposal of the weapons.


Actually, since quarantines are supposed to keep bacterial material away from the public, the disposal of materials is actually not the primary concern. (Of course, it's a huge problem, which does need to be covered) It could still need a resolution to address it (if you've read page 3 of the forum, Umeria had to cut out a few parts because it had reached the character limit), and it should be fine, because it would not be conflicting with Rights of the Quarantined.

For your comparison, it would probably be more accurate to be concerned about what to do with the nuclear material you have now after dismantling all your thermonuclear weapons. Perhaps you would need a resolution (and a debate) to store it somewhere safe or convert it into nuclear energy. You can't kill two birds with one stone here.

If you can't kill two birds with one stone, then you should probably find a different method with which to kill birds. It is completely possible to include disposal in a quarantine regulation. Leaving such legislation out could result in nations improperly disposing of biohazard materials, thus risking another epidemic.
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Death Star America
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Founded: Nov 29, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Death Star America » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:36 am

The Atlae Isles wrote:
Death Star America wrote:Your missing part of the point Minister Williamson, true separate legislation could be written on disposal of materials, but grieving families due need to be addressed and the rights of the deceased. Obviously we can't let the two come in contact but it would be cold to just toss them in the incinerator and say "oh well". So I think the rights aspect still needs to be addressed as well as i have stated methods of humanity detaining patients and the use of lethal force in a standoff scenario. The registry issue needs to be addressed as well.


My name is Williamsen. But never mind that. It seems no one that can spell my name right.

I'm confused about what you say here, as there are way too few commas, but I assume what you're saying is that when the outbreak is done killing people, the deceased will not have anywhere to go. That is a valid concern.

Grieving families don't prevent you from introducing a proposal to dispose appropriately of the deceased. But until you do, each WA nation would not have any restrictions to practice whatever burial practice they choose. They could bury them, or they could just lock them up into the incinerator, like you have said. But that's their decision, whether subjectively right or wrong, until you write the resolution. *hint *hint.

Also, in page 3 of the transcript of this debate, you can read that when Rights of the Quarantined was being submitted, it exceeded the character limit. We can't add that cadaver burial clause. Sorry, you have to write your own.


Agreed, on the burial clause i will work on a resolution. However detainment remains an unanswered issue, especially in a standoff scenario where families will violently protect loved ones. The use of lethal force is obviously necessary in such a situation but the manner in which it is deployed is detrimental. Methods that produce more carnage spread infected materials further contaminating residencies, also quarantine protocols need to elaborate on infected family members versus non symptomatic exposed members in a separate quarantine. As I have also said a registry needs to be discussed for infected survivors and exposed persons at risk, how public would a registry be? I will work on a resolution on lethal force, marshal law, quarantine protocols in rural areas vs urban outlining infrastructure and technological obstacles versus methods of infection. I will need endorsements of course.

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The Atlae Isles
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Posts: 471
Founded: Feb 07, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Atlae Isles » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:46 am

The Manticoran Empire wrote:
The Atlae Isles wrote:
Actually, since quarantines are supposed to keep bacterial material away from the public, the disposal of materials is actually not the primary concern. (Of course, it's a huge problem, which does need to be covered) It could still need a resolution to address it (if you've read page 3 of the forum, Umeria had to cut out a few parts because it had reached the character limit), and it should be fine, because it would not be conflicting with Rights of the Quarantined.

For your comparison, it would probably be more accurate to be concerned about what to do with the nuclear material you have now after dismantling all your thermonuclear weapons. Perhaps you would need a resolution (and a debate) to store it somewhere safe or convert it into nuclear energy. You can't kill two birds with one stone here.

If you can't kill two birds with one stone, then you should probably find a different method with which to kill birds. It is completely possible to include disposal in a quarantine regulation. Leaving such legislation out could result in nations improperly disposing of biohazard materials, thus risking another epidemic.


Unfortunately, we CAN'T include it because
1) it's at vote, can't be amended
2) Exceeds character limit, we can't put it in.

Also, the resolution is about the rights of those in the quarantine. Other details are either hopefully covered by some other resolution or can be covered in a new resolution. Ambassador, we can only cover issues one at a time. Put that concern in a new proposal. Should you write it, I will (probably) support it. But not while another resolution is at vote.
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The Atlae Isles
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Postby The Atlae Isles » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:55 am

Death Star America wrote:
The Atlae Isles wrote:
My name is Williamsen. But never mind that. It seems no one that can spell my name right.

I'm confused about what you say here, as there are way too few commas, but I assume what you're saying is that when the outbreak is done killing people, the deceased will not have anywhere to go. That is a valid concern.

Grieving families don't prevent you from introducing a proposal to dispose appropriately of the deceased. But until you do, each WA nation would not have any restrictions to practice whatever burial practice they choose. They could bury them, or they could just lock them up into the incinerator, like you have said. But that's their decision, whether subjectively right or wrong, until you write the resolution. *hint *hint.

Also, in page 3 of the transcript of this debate, you can read that when Rights of the Quarantined was being submitted, it exceeded the character limit. We can't add that cadaver burial clause. Sorry, you have to write your own.


Agreed, on the burial clause i will work on a resolution. However detainment remains an unanswered issue, especially in a standoff scenario where families will violently protect loved ones. The use of lethal force is obviously necessary in such a situation but the manner in which it is deployed is detrimental. Methods that produce more carnage spread infected materials further contaminating residencies, also quarantine protocols need to elaborate on infected family members versus non symptomatic exposed members in a separate quarantine. As I have also said a registry needs to be discussed for infected survivors and exposed persons at risk, how public would a registry be? I will work on a resolution on lethal force, marshal law, quarantine protocols in rural areas vs urban outlining infrastructure and technological obstacles versus methods of infection. I will need endorsements of course.


I'm not going to move to The Invaders to endorse you. I love it here in the TEP!

*Martial law
From the desk of the Atlae Isles international affairs minister, George Williamsen. Every WA first statement will be the formal opinion from the delegation of the Atlae Isles. King Calvin the I may comment.

"Gloria in Terra"

"The pronunciation of "Atlae" is /ætleɪ/. Don't you forget it."

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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:13 am

Bananaistan wrote:OOC: As the proposing nation is a resident in one of the four regions party to the self styled "World Assembly Accord on Campaign Spam", I will be voting against.

The Manticoran Empire wrote:"The Manticoran Empire fails to see how this resolution secures the rights of infected individuals. No where in the resolution does it clearly state what rights apply to the infected. This resolution is, in my opinion, just an extended version of the Quarantine Regulation. For this reason, the Manticoran Empire votes against this resolution."

OOC: ^These, and because you repealed the one I made you work so hard on, are my reasons for voting against. Stating this OOCly, because ICly PPU couldn't care less. (And yes, I'm aware it's going to pass. Statement made in any case. Will also support any repeal attempts, unless made by the author.)
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Caral
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Founded: Feb 15, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Caral » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:09 am

Moderatainia wrote:
Umeria wrote:
1) Tasks the Epidemic and Pandemic Alert and Response Center to define as a "serious disease" any disease which is harmful and contagious enough to create the need of a quarantine in the case of an outbreak of the disease


Should we not leave the defining of "serious disease" to the EPARC? It would seem that, in addition to the increase in influence this mandate would give the EPARC, to give it such a definition in conjunction with this influx would leave the EPARC's attempts of enforcement open to contention with some of the, shall we say, more contentious member states; to say nothing of the fact that definition, as written, is vague. For example, athletes foot is contagious and can be damaging in cases of diabetes or a weakened immune system; for the most part, however, it is a mild annoyance. However, given the definition that written here, it would seem that the EPARC would be well within their rights, if not obligated, to quarantine a city for a possible janitorial failure at a school gymnasium.

I propose amending this definition to include: "harmful to the point of the risk the disease being terminal in most cases, and contagious to the point that normal preventative measures (as decided by EPARC or member states) cannot decrease the affliction rate by any reasonable measure."


To sum up, I believe that the definition should either be laid out in greater detail, or be left to the EPARC to parse out after the theoretical passage of this resolution.

I thank you for your time.


A - This.

I vote against this resolution because it still contains vague language to define "severe disease" and "epidemic."This lack of clarity can let to segregation or used as an excuse to imprison otherwise healthy people. The board of ethics is a good suggestion, but not enough.
Last edited by Caral on Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Bears Armed Mission
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Founded: Jul 26, 2008
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Postby Bears Armed Mission » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:46 am

Death Star America wrote:Also oversight on escalation levels of force used to separate people from their families, i shudder to picture a gestapo scenario.

:blink:
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Umeria
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Founded: Mar 05, 2016
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Postby Umeria » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:55 pm

Araraukar wrote:OOC: ^These,

This proposal gives infected people plenty of rights, such as the right to not be thrown in a pit and left to rot. And I happen to like Europe, regardless of this Campaign Spam thing. I still don't see why it should affect my proposal.
Araraukar wrote:and because you repealed the one I made you work so hard on, are my reasons for voting against.

I haven't changed much besides the addition of the medical ethics board. All of the hard work is still there.
Araraukar wrote:Will also support any repeal attempts, unless made by the author.

Not again... Well, I think the resolution is finished. Whatever happens, I will be glad to finally get out of quarantines.
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- The Diplomat: Lucy Carlyle
- The Accountant: George Cubbins
The debaters mentioned above have all the appropriate qualifications. However, they're only 15 years old. Do not invite them for a drink in the Stranger's Bar. Tech level is class M11. Population is 73 million. Otherwise, all NS stats apply.
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Outer Zwaterskenrhas
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Founded: Nov 24, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Outer Zwaterskenrhas » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:06 pm

I, the High Executor, on behalf of the Executive Council of the Allied States of Outer Zwaterskenrhas of the Sovereignty of the Falcon, hereby agree to this proposal. While, as some have stated, the wording in this proposal leaves some issues unaddressed, I trust that the reasonable members of this exalted assembly will be sure to pass legislation regulating those matters as well. I thank you all for your time.
Last edited by Outer Zwaterskenrhas on Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:53 pm

Umeria wrote:And I happen to like Europe, regardless of this Campaign Spam thing. I still don't see why it should affect my proposal.

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Evil Eagle
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Founded: Apr 01, 2016
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Evil Eagle » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:39 am

Several things are wrong.
a "treatment" as any action done to an infected person with the purpose of:
curing the infected person;
rendering the infected person non-contagious;
ensuring the infected person does not undergo any unnecessary harm; and/or
ensuring the infected person is not deprived of any necessities a non-infected person would normally receive;
3) Recommends that all member nations, in the event of an epidemic in their nation, screen for any infected persons in that nation not yet known to be infected;

4) Requires that all member nations, to the best of their capability:
create at least one quarantine per epidemic in the nation;
The funding demanded of this resolution would be better spent on helping nations develop effective facilities withing local hospitals to quarantine the infected so the nation would have permanent pandemic response forever. The need to dismantle quarantine zones after the event would be moot, and wasteful. A new pandemic, or resurgence would only cause money to be spent again.
move all infected persons into the appropriate quarantine that is nearest to their current location;
Moving a contaminated person may further increase rate of infection. There are times when quarantine in place would be more appropriate. At any rate helping to fund infection response centers at local hospitals would be the right thing to do. When a person is under hospital care, it is a given what can be expected as regarding rights, treatment and availability of necessities.
provide every treatment to all infected persons that are in a quarantine while taking any available precaution to ensure that the people administering these treatments are not infected;
move anyone that ceases to be an infected person out of the quarantine;
disband all quarantines of a certain epidemic when the epidemic ends; and
5) Mandates that the EPARC cover the costs of the requirements in clause 4 for any member nation that has difficulty maintaining quarantines;

6) Establishes a medical ethics board within the EPARC, tasking it to:
review matters of necessity and promulgation within quarantines;
ensure that such matters are handled with proper consideration of the infected person's well-being;
ensure that infected individuals are treated fairly with regards to individual freedom and dignity; and
This resolution is entitled Rights of the Quarantined. It would be appropriate for those rights to be delineated in this resolution. As it stands this clause is a litigation trap.
EPARC would be a better service if this funding provided treatment training to local physicians who are less advanced so the nation may be prepared always to deal with their own incidents.
7) Urges that member nations provide infected persons with comfort and security, to help them recover from their unfortunate situation.

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Umeria
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Founded: Mar 05, 2016
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Postby Umeria » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:33 am

Evil Eagle wrote:The funding demanded of this resolution would be better spent on helping nations develop effective facilities withing local hospitals to quarantine the infected so the nation would have permanent pandemic response forever.

"What is keeping such a hospital from becoming a quarantine in epidemics?"
Evil Eagle wrote:The need to dismantle quarantine zones after the event would be moot, and wasteful. A new pandemic, or resurgence would only cause money to be spent again.

"The quarantines don't have to be dismantled; only disbanded."
Evil Eagle wrote:Moving a contaminated person may further increase rate of infection.

"Not as much as the rate would be if they had not moved them to a quarantine."
Evil Eagle wrote:There are times when quarantine in place would be more appropriate.

"There is nothing stopping you from making such a quarantine."
Evil Eagle wrote:At any rate helping to fund infection response centers at local hospitals would be the right thing to do. When a person is under hospital care, it is a given what can be expected as regarding rights, treatment and availability of necessities.

"If you want to boost hospital funding so they could easily quarantine individuals in an epidemic, then do so. There are plenty of other reasonable methods, such as quarantining an entire city, that would work better for many nations."
Evil Eagle wrote:This resolution is entitled Rights of the Quarantined. It would be appropriate for those rights to be delineated in this resolution. As it stands this clause is a litigation trap.

"This is a healthcare resolution, not a human rights resolution. Just because the "Rights" is in the title doesn't mean it has to be entirely focused on people's rights."
Evil Eagle wrote:EPARC would be a better service if this funding provided treatment training to local physicians who are less advanced so the nation may be prepared always to deal with their own incidents.

"Medical training is an entirely different matter which can be handled by other legislation. This resolution is only concerned with quarantines."
- The Ambassador: Anthony Lockwood
- The Diplomat: Lucy Carlyle
- The Accountant: George Cubbins
The debaters mentioned above have all the appropriate qualifications. However, they're only 15 years old. Do not invite them for a drink in the Stranger's Bar. Tech level is class M11. Population is 73 million. Otherwise, all NS stats apply.
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States of Glory WA Office
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New York Times Democracy

Postby States of Glory WA Office » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:13 am

Neville: Congratulations on this resolution's passage, Ambassador Lockwood.

Fairburn: We suggest that you attempt a repeal of this resolution in about three days.
Ambassador: Bartholomew Harper Fairburn Rowan Flowerhaze Souldream Bartholomew Harper Fairburn
Assistant: Neville Lynn Robert
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Umeria
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Founded: Mar 05, 2016
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Postby Umeria » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:34 pm

States of Glory WA Office wrote:Neville: Congratulations on this resolution's passage, Ambassador Lockwood.

"Thank you. I'm really glad my hard work paid off." says Lockwood, at the same time that Cubbins says "It needed a team effort, but we managed it."

The half-second of awkward silence that follows feels like an eternity.

States of Glory WA Office wrote:Fairburn: We suggest that you attempt a repeal of this resolution in about three days.

"What? Why?"
- The Ambassador: Anthony Lockwood
- The Diplomat: Lucy Carlyle
- The Accountant: George Cubbins
The debaters mentioned above have all the appropriate qualifications. However, they're only 15 years old. Do not invite them for a drink in the Stranger's Bar. Tech level is class M11. Population is 73 million. Otherwise, all NS stats apply.
"Umeria - We start with U"

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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:02 pm

Umeria wrote:
States of Glory WA Office wrote:Fairburn: We suggest that you attempt a repeal of this resolution in about three days.

"What? Why?"

Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: Ambassador Fairburn might be taking the mick out of the Quarantine Regulation saga, where it was repealed due to the lack of a medical ethics board within the EPARC.
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Umeria
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Founded: Mar 05, 2016
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Postby Umeria » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:10 pm

Tinhampton wrote:
Umeria wrote:"What? Why?"

Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: Ambassador Fairburn might be taking the mick out of the Quarantine Regulation saga, where it was repealed due to the lack of a medical ethics board within the EPARC.

"Well, there's no need for a repeal this time."
- The Ambassador: Anthony Lockwood
- The Diplomat: Lucy Carlyle
- The Accountant: George Cubbins
The debaters mentioned above have all the appropriate qualifications. However, they're only 15 years old. Do not invite them for a drink in the Stranger's Bar. Tech level is class M11. Population is 73 million. Otherwise, all NS stats apply.
"Umeria - We start with U"

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Separatist Peoples
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Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:16 pm

Umeria wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: Ambassador Fairburn might be taking the mick out of the Quarantine Regulation saga, where it was repealed due to the lack of a medical ethics board within the EPARC.

"Well, there's no need for a repeal this time."

"You didn't really empower the ethics board with the ability to end or alter quarantines that don't comply fully, so there is certainly a deficiency. Certainly, it isn't clear that they have that power."

OOC: But I was way too busy to participate, so I'm not going to make a big deal about it. Congrats.

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Umeria
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Founded: Mar 05, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Umeria » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:37 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Umeria wrote:"Well, there's no need for a repeal this time."

"You didn't really empower the ethics board with the ability to end or alter quarantines that don't comply fully, so there is certainly a deficiency. Certainly, it isn't clear that they have that power."

OOC: But I was way too busy to participate, so I'm not going to make a big deal about it. Congrats.

Okay, clause 6 uses some vague language, but it's not repeal-worthy. Time for me to finally depart from quarantines and start working on... other matters.
- The Ambassador: Anthony Lockwood
- The Diplomat: Lucy Carlyle
- The Accountant: George Cubbins
The debaters mentioned above have all the appropriate qualifications. However, they're only 15 years old. Do not invite them for a drink in the Stranger's Bar. Tech level is class M11. Population is 73 million. Otherwise, all NS stats apply.
"Umeria - We start with U"

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States of Glory WA Office
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1220
Founded: Jul 26, 2016
New York Times Democracy

Postby States of Glory WA Office » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:56 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Umeria wrote:"Well, there's no need for a repeal this time."

"You didn't really empower the ethics board with the ability to end or alter quarantines that don't comply fully, so there is certainly a deficiency. Certainly, it isn't clear that they have that power."

Neville: An excellent point. Looks like we'll have to repeal this then.

Fairburn: The author has carelessly neglected to provide the recipe to an Orange Julius, not to mention this resolution's lack of regulation for bulian hypercurves. This oversight cannot be allowed to stand!
Ambassador: Bartholomew Harper Fairburn Rowan Flowerhaze Souldream Bartholomew Harper Fairburn
Assistant: Neville Lynn Robert
#MakeLegislationFunnyAgain

Note: Until further notice, Barbera Warner is the acting Ambassador and Harold "The Clown" Johnson is the acting Assistant

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Umeria
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Founded: Mar 05, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Umeria » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:11 pm

States of Glory WA Office wrote:Neville: An excellent point. Looks like we'll have to repeal this then.
Umeria wrote:Okay, clause 6 uses some vague language, but it's not repeal-worthy.

States of Glory WA Office wrote:Fairburn: The author has carelessly neglected to provide the recipe to an Orange Julius, not to mention this resolution's lack of regulation for bulian hypercurves. This oversight cannot be allowed to stand!

:meh:
- The Ambassador: Anthony Lockwood
- The Diplomat: Lucy Carlyle
- The Accountant: George Cubbins
The debaters mentioned above have all the appropriate qualifications. However, they're only 15 years old. Do not invite them for a drink in the Stranger's Bar. Tech level is class M11. Population is 73 million. Otherwise, all NS stats apply.
"Umeria - We start with U"

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 10919
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:13 pm

Umeria wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"You didn't really empower the ethics board with the ability to end or alter quarantines that don't comply fully, so there is certainly a deficiency. Certainly, it isn't clear that they have that power."

OOC: But I was way too busy to participate, so I'm not going to make a big deal about it. Congrats.

Okay, clause 6 uses some vague language, but it's not repeal-worthy. Time for me to finally depart from quarantines and start working on... other matters.

OOC: Its vague enough to be ambiguous as to whether it has the unilateral authority to practically accomplish those ends, since the limits of its power aren't explored. That said, it's ambiguous, so it may have it. That's probably enough to avoid a repeal, but it isn't ideal. Just worth noting.

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