NATION

PASSWORD

[DEFEATED] Repeal "Right of Emigration"

A carefully preserved record of the most notable World Assembly debates.

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Abacathea
Minister
 
Posts: 2151
Founded: Nov 17, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Abacathea » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:45 am

I find it especially disappointing this particular piece is being targeted for repeal, mainly because while simple in its construction I've always been quite proud of this. That said, I don't feel any of your arguments really substantiate a repeal so, without further ado.

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Observing that there is a provision to allow for emigration restriction in the case of criminal sentences, but also seeing that such a provision does not create a restriction for civil liabilities, and therefore concerned that the right of emigration could be used to evade court-mandated civil liabilities, such as child support,


I really feel this is a bit of a stretch and dependent on how your legal system operates to suggest that the only recourse to deal with court mandated child support is the restriction of emigration is almost farcical to be frank. Do all nations operation on the principal that if you're paying child support you're never entitled to emigrate?

Concerned that this right, in a world of extremely quick travel, could also be used to evade court summons and thereby deprive governments of much-needed evidence to substantiate criminal prosecutions,


There's a number of things inherently wrong with this argument, specifically;
In any country with a modern legal system a summons would only ever be issued when a prosecution believes there is sufficient evidence to charge a person(s) with an offence, to issue a summons before having enough evidence to substantiate criminal proceedings is tantamount to a miscarriage of justice and if your prosecution operates on that method of prosecutorial conduct it's a wonder you need prisons at all.

Furthermore extremely quick travel is an odd point to pick up on, would you suggest this wouldn't be an issue then if travel was exceptionally slow?

Noting that because the resolution prevents emigration restrictions in times of war, mass emigration is likely, which would lead to labour shortages for war industries and stop the production of materiel needed for the defence of the nation,


I would think the preservation of life would have significantly more merit than labour shortages.

Further noting that the resolution states that 'no government may prevent the emigration of individuals from their nation', which, when combined with the existence of outbound border controls, requires nations to either choose to disband such outbound controls (and therefore be unable to measure population outflows) or be burdened with the massive costs of issuing passports to all citizens,


This resolution affects emigration, not immigration, no country is under onus to accept persons.

If I'm entirely honest the feel I get from reading your draft is you felt that you were on to an easy win here, further evidenced by the fact it has been ten days since the proposal first appeared and went to vote. I don't think you either well thought out your arguments or gave your target resolution enough merit to think this was anything other than a handy authorship and as a result the votes currently speak for itself.

It's a pity. I thought you were at a better calibre than this.
G.A #236; Renewable Energy Installations (Repealed)
G.A #239; Vehicle Emissions Convention (Repealed).
G.A #257; Reducing Automobile Emissions (Repealed).
G.A #263; Uranium Mining Standards Act
G.A #279; Right of Emigration
G.A #292; Nuclear Security Convention
(Co-Author)
G.A #363; Preservation of Artefacts (repealed)
S.C #118; Commend SkyDip
S.C #120; Commend Mousebumples
S.C #122; Condemn Gest
S.C #124; Commend Bears Armed
S.C #125; Commend The Bruce
S.C #126; Commend Sanctaria
S.C #131: Commend NewTexas
(Co-Author)
S.C #136; Repeal "Liberate St Abbaddon" (Co-Author)
S.C #143; Commend Hobbesistan
S.C #146; Repeal "Liberate Hogwarts"

User avatar
Astrolinium
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36603
Founded: Mar 05, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Astrolinium » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:36 pm

The Sublime Island Kingdom votes against.
The Sublime Island Kingdom of Astrolinium
Ilia Franchisco Attore, King Attorio Maldive III
North Carolina | NSIndex Page | Embassies
Pop: 3,082 | Tech: MT | DEFCON: 5-4-3-2-1
SEE YOU SPACE COWBOY...
About Me: Ravenclaw, Gay, Cis Male, 5’4”.
"Don't you forget about me."

Ex-Delegate of Ankh Mauta | NSG Sodomy Club
Minor Acolyte of the Vast Jewlluminati Conspiracy™

User avatar
The Atlae Isles
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1075
Founded: Feb 07, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Atlae Isles » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:51 pm

We are opposed.
Author of Issues #752, #816, and #967
Delegate Emeritus of The East Pacific
WA Ambassador: George Williamsen
"Gloria in Terra" | "The pronunciation of "Atlae" is /ætleɪ/. Don't you forget it."
Collecting TEP Cards! - Deputy Steward of TEAPOT

User avatar
Viscondy
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 59
Founded: Jun 24, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Viscondy » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:35 pm

Abacathea wrote:I find it especially disappointing this particular piece is being targeted for repeal, mainly because while simple in its construction I've always been quite proud of this. That said, I don't feel any of your arguments really substantiate a repeal so, without further ado.

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Observing that there is a provision to allow for emigration restriction in the case of criminal sentences, but also seeing that such a provision does not create a restriction for civil liabilities, and therefore concerned that the right of emigration could be used to evade court-mandated civil liabilities, such as child support,


I really feel this is a bit of a stretch and dependent on how your legal system operates to suggest that the only recourse to deal with court mandated child support is the restriction of emigration is almost farcical to be frank. Do all nations operation on the principal that if you're paying child support you're never entitled to emigrate?

Concerned that this right, in a world of extremely quick travel, could also be used to evade court summons and thereby deprive governments of much-needed evidence to substantiate criminal prosecutions,


There's a number of things inherently wrong with this argument, specifically;
In any country with a modern legal system a summons would only ever be issued when a prosecution believes there is sufficient evidence to charge a person(s) with an offence, to issue a summons before having enough evidence to substantiate criminal proceedings is tantamount to a miscarriage of justice and if your prosecution operates on that method of prosecutorial conduct it's a wonder you need prisons at all.

Furthermore extremely quick travel is an odd point to pick up on, would you suggest this wouldn't be an issue then if travel was exceptionally slow?

Noting that because the resolution prevents emigration restrictions in times of war, mass emigration is likely, which would lead to labour shortages for war industries and stop the production of materiel needed for the defence of the nation,


I would think the preservation of life would have significantly more merit than labour shortages.

Further noting that the resolution states that 'no government may prevent the emigration of individuals from their nation', which, when combined with the existence of outbound border controls, requires nations to either choose to disband such outbound controls (and therefore be unable to measure population outflows) or be burdened with the massive costs of issuing passports to all citizens,


This resolution affects emigration, not immigration, no country is under onus to accept persons.

If I'm entirely honest the feel I get from reading your draft is you felt that you were on to an easy win here, further evidenced by the fact it has been ten days since the proposal first appeared and went to vote. I don't think you either well thought out your arguments or gave your target resolution enough merit to think this was anything other than a handy authorship and as a result the votes currently speak for itself.

It's a pity. I thought you were at a better calibre than this.

We agree with your arguments. You needn't worry, though. The repeal is being defeated. I guess that we're all so used, by now, to Imperium Anglorum's word being law, that you forgot to check!

User avatar
Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15899
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:14 pm

Viscondy wrote:We agree with your arguments. You needn't worry, though. The repeal is being defeated. I guess that we're all so used, by now, to Imperium Anglorum's word being law, that you forgot to check!

OOC: Over two days left, don't yet start celebrating. (I'm hoping it'll fail, but I've seen larger margins being overtaken.)
- ambassador miss Janis Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.

User avatar
Wallenburg
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22872
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Wallenburg » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:08 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Viscondy wrote:We agree with your arguments. You needn't worry, though. The repeal is being defeated. I guess that we're all so used, by now, to Imperium Anglorum's word being law, that you forgot to check!

OOC: Over two days left, don't yet start celebrating. (I'm hoping it'll fail, but I've seen larger margins being overtaken.)

OOC: Yes but those tend to be things like "Repeal 'Liberate Eternal Scholars'" and are, therefore, rather rare.
While she had no regrets about throwing the lever to douse her husband's mistress in molten gold, Blanche did feel a pang of conscience for the innocent bystanders whose proximity had caused them to suffer gilt by association.

King of Snark, Real Piece of Work, Metabolizer of Oxygen, Old Man from The East Pacific, by the Malevolence of Her Infinite Terribleness Catherine Gratwick the Sole and True Claimant to the Bears Armed Vacancy, Protector of the Realm

User avatar
Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15899
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:46 pm

Wallenburg wrote:OOC: Yes but those tend to be things like "Repeal 'Liberate Eternal Scholars'" and are, therefore, rather rare.

OOC: I've never followed SC votes, so was referring to GA ones. And yes, rare but not unheard of.
- ambassador miss Janis Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.

User avatar
Math Nation
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 7
Founded: Apr 22, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Math Nation » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:31 am

I'm not gonna read the previous argument, but I believe I have a good and mostly unused argument.
  • Subsidize private corporations for the passports.
  • Shouldn't extradition be done for any escaping criminal? Emigrating doesn't remove your previous existence in a nation, and you subjected yourself to that government already.

User avatar
Wallenburg
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22872
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Wallenburg » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:29 pm

Math Nation wrote:Subsidize private corporations for the passports.

Ogenbond shivers. "Corporations...no, no thank you."
While she had no regrets about throwing the lever to douse her husband's mistress in molten gold, Blanche did feel a pang of conscience for the innocent bystanders whose proximity had caused them to suffer gilt by association.

King of Snark, Real Piece of Work, Metabolizer of Oxygen, Old Man from The East Pacific, by the Malevolence of Her Infinite Terribleness Catherine Gratwick the Sole and True Claimant to the Bears Armed Vacancy, Protector of the Realm

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 12659
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:48 pm

OOC: I've been quite busy this week (and will probably continue to be so into next week). A much more active management of the voting process would have been required to achieve success.

Author: 1 SC and 56+ GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
GenSec (24 Dec 2021 –); posts not official unless so indicated
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Twice-commended toxic villainous globalist kittehs

User avatar
Wallenburg
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22872
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Wallenburg » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:01 pm

"Repeal "Right of Emigration"" was defeated 12,272 votes to 5,729.
While she had no regrets about throwing the lever to douse her husband's mistress in molten gold, Blanche did feel a pang of conscience for the innocent bystanders whose proximity had caused them to suffer gilt by association.

King of Snark, Real Piece of Work, Metabolizer of Oxygen, Old Man from The East Pacific, by the Malevolence of Her Infinite Terribleness Catherine Gratwick the Sole and True Claimant to the Bears Armed Vacancy, Protector of the Realm

User avatar
Raven Landing
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 7
Founded: Dec 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Raven Landing » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:13 am

OOCly: Why is this still listed as at vote?

User avatar
Abacathea
Minister
 
Posts: 2151
Founded: Nov 17, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Abacathea » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:47 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:OOC: I've been quite busy this week (and will probably continue to be so into next week). A much more active management of the voting process would have been required to achieve success.


Yes... Because your activity is what caused the defeat we're sure Ambassador.
G.A #236; Renewable Energy Installations (Repealed)
G.A #239; Vehicle Emissions Convention (Repealed).
G.A #257; Reducing Automobile Emissions (Repealed).
G.A #263; Uranium Mining Standards Act
G.A #279; Right of Emigration
G.A #292; Nuclear Security Convention
(Co-Author)
G.A #363; Preservation of Artefacts (repealed)
S.C #118; Commend SkyDip
S.C #120; Commend Mousebumples
S.C #122; Condemn Gest
S.C #124; Commend Bears Armed
S.C #125; Commend The Bruce
S.C #126; Commend Sanctaria
S.C #131: Commend NewTexas
(Co-Author)
S.C #136; Repeal "Liberate St Abbaddon" (Co-Author)
S.C #143; Commend Hobbesistan
S.C #146; Repeal "Liberate Hogwarts"

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 12659
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:33 am

Abacathea wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:OOC: I've been quite busy this week (and will probably continue to be so into next week). A much more active management of the voting process would have been required to achieve success.

Yes... Because your activity is what caused the defeat we're sure Ambassador.

OOC: Considering that a campaign could have been run, absolutely.

Author: 1 SC and 56+ GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
GenSec (24 Dec 2021 –); posts not official unless so indicated
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Twice-commended toxic villainous globalist kittehs

User avatar
Wallenburg
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22872
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Wallenburg » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:21 am

Abacathea wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:OOC: I've been quite busy this week (and will probably continue to be so into next week). A much more active management of the voting process would have been required to achieve success.


Yes... Because your activity is what caused the defeat we're sure Ambassador.

Perhaps not entirely, but it was probably a contributing factor.
While she had no regrets about throwing the lever to douse her husband's mistress in molten gold, Blanche did feel a pang of conscience for the innocent bystanders whose proximity had caused them to suffer gilt by association.

King of Snark, Real Piece of Work, Metabolizer of Oxygen, Old Man from The East Pacific, by the Malevolence of Her Infinite Terribleness Catherine Gratwick the Sole and True Claimant to the Bears Armed Vacancy, Protector of the Realm

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 12659
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:58 am

Wallenburg wrote:Perhaps not entirely, but it was probably a contributing factor.

OOC: I think the largest factor to the defeat of this resolution is the fact that I've now passed 13 resolutions. Coinkydink? I think not!

Author: 1 SC and 56+ GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
GenSec (24 Dec 2021 –); posts not official unless so indicated
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Twice-commended toxic villainous globalist kittehs

User avatar
Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15899
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:57 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:OOC: I think the largest factor to the defeat of this resolution is the fact that I've now passed 13 resolutions. Coinkydink? I think not!

OOC: And you wonder why I sometimes poke you about becoming a delusional egomaniac...? :p

Just kidding. IA isn't delusional. Usually.
Last edited by Araraukar on Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- ambassador miss Janis Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.

Previous

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to WA Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Advertisement

Remove ads