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Genital Mutilation [Western Hypocrisy?]

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Define your opinion on the matter below, via vote.

Male Genital Mutilation is more important compared to Female Genital Mutilation.
13
7%
Male Genital Mutilation is just as pressing of an issue as Female Genital Mutilation.
84
46%
Male Genital Mutilation is not as important of an issue as Female Genital Mutilation.
42
23%
Male Genital Mutilation is not important compared to Female Genital Mutilation.
18
10%
Male Genital Mutilation doesn't exist, and I should be able to cut anything I want off my sons because of my religion.
11
6%
Male Genital Mutilation doesn't exist, and I should be able to cut anything I want off my sons because it makes their genitals healthier.
13
7%
 
Total votes : 181

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New Celisia
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Genital Mutilation [Western Hypocrisy?]

Postby New Celisia » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:25 pm

Today I finished a issue on NS that brought this to my direct attention. The issue gave me several options detailing the specifics of male circumcision within my nation, I chose the option that allowed the procedure on consenting adults and those who need it for a medical reason. Yet I noticed that my Civil Rights index fell sharply due to my decision. It made me think, "Why is there such an outcry against female genital mutilation in third world countries, yet these same individuals who claim to be egalitarians hardly blink an eye when it comes to circumcision in the first world." How is it that common practice, especially in the United States, dictates the removal of around 20,000-70,000 nerve endings in the male genitalia? Yet we have women's rights movements barking at the gate to get rid of female genital mutilation abroad?

The same individuals who discuss the rights of a person to their own body, don't really seem to care about our own domestic issues with genital mutilation, specifically on children who are unable to consent. This is a clear human rights violation, yet it is being ignored and the behest of foreign mutilation of a more 'important' gender? Even NS issues show the bias of this double standard and hypocritical practice, when allowing individuals the right to choose, when they are of the age of consent, brings your human rights index and civil rights index down. I believe that this is a clear issue and an epidemic that should be thwarted and fought at every corner. What actually surprises me the most, is that most people who get circumcised aren't even hard line religious adherents, this practice has just become so 'normal' that most people seem to be doing it regardless of religious affiliation.

You can site medical advantages until the Earth dries up and is absorbed by the sun, but you won't be able to justify or legitimize this practice. Especially when taken with consideration of the double standards employed by politicians, religious leaders, scientists, and civil rights leaders when it comes to this issue and female genital mutilation. I grew up in a family that could hardly be considered religious, and simply had me circumcised against my will as a babe, due to that fact that this practice is considered 'normal' here. If you do support male genital mutilation, but you don't support female genital mutilation, doesn't that at it's core logic make you a hypocrite and a sexist? So how are all these people that claim to be supporting egalitarianism and equality be so deluded as to devolve back into gender's double standards and hypocrisy themselves?

You might be able to tell, but I am extremely against any form of genital mutilation, male, female, and otherwise, unless it occurs at with the consent of the individual, at the age of majority, or occurs due to medical issues. At it's core these children's bodies should be protected from mutilation because genital mutilation is wrong, regardless of what equipment you happen to be cutting on. I just see a huge Western and specifically American double standard when it comes to this issue, and I think that people should be educated about how barbaric the practice is without a consenting adult, or for a medical purpose like deformities, infection, cancer, etc. And for those of you who would decry this as a religious infraction, and a destruction of freedom of religion, I completely disagree. Religions should be able to operate how they choose, as long as it harms none. This is harm. This is violation. This is mutilation. This is a double standard that needs to be resolved and removed, and it should be done at the behest of any individual who claims to be an egalitarian or equalist.

What are the communities thoughts on this matter?

[Edit/Note: I've added a biased poll for people to vote in.]

References:
Nerve Endings in the Foreskin
http://www.noharmm.org/zoske.htm
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Last edited by New Celisia on Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Settrah
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Postby Settrah » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:37 pm

Does not compute. This suggests an androcentric issue. Boys and men don't face any issues in society, they're already privileged because of the patriarchy catering to them, obviously only girls and women face problems. Man tears.

... I'm joking of course. But I know that this will come up at some point in this thread. I just wanted to be the first to say it. :D

There is no excuse for violation of one's genitals without consent. It's funny how some people twist that phrase so that's it's 'O-K' in 'some' situations. Nope. It is what it is, violation of one's genitals without consent. It's wrong.
Last edited by Settrah on Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Trotskylvania
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Postby Trotskylvania » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:37 pm

Removal of the male foreskin is not equivalent to the practice of female-genital mutiliation, which routinely involves the amputation of the clitoris, as well as the removal of the labia, and can also include the sewing shut of the vulva entirely. This is not practiced in medically safe conditions, whereas western male circumcision is usually done medically.

Both in terms of the effects on the subject as well as the risks, male circumcision is much less severe. I'm circumcised, and it causes me no discomforts no prevents me from achieving sexual release to any discernible degree. Female genital mutilation is designed prevent women from feeling pleasure from sex at all, and to make the act of intercourse uncomfortable and painful.

I think child circumcision should be banned as medically unnecessary potentially harmful. But don't pretend that the two are the same, because they're not.
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Postby Alvecia » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:42 pm

I'm absolutely against any genital surgery until the person getting the surgery if of consenting age, but as I understand it there are actually some medical benefits to circumcision, whereas FGM has little to none, so comparing the two is actually something of a false equivalence

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The Irish County of the Beare-Mor
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Postby The Irish County of the Beare-Mor » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:44 pm

Just going to put in my two cents I should only be allowed according to consenting adults and only 2 there was Consulting adults should it be allowed.
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Postby Saiwania » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:46 pm

So far as I've read, there are some forms of female circumcision which don't involve removing the clitoris, obviously not the same as the type which involves clitoris removal or sewing shut of the vulva. Generally speaking though, male circumcision can't be described as mutilation. Much as I'm in favor of the procedure declining, with fewer people wanting it done.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:47 pm

In my experience, calling it "male genital mutilation" is a great way to get people to not listen to you.
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:58 pm

Ifreann wrote:In my experience, calling it "male genital mutilation" is a great way to get people to not listen to you.

You said "genital" lol

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:00 pm

I am absolutely opposed to elective circumcision. I think infant circumcision should be illegal in the absence of valid medical reasons. It absolutely is mutilation, and I'm not just saying this because my faith has traditionally frowned on elective circumcision.
But at the same time, it's nothing compared to female genital mutilation in Sudan or wherever, and it's asinine to claim the two are equivalent. Yes, I curse my circumcision routinely. But the thing still works, and it wouldn't were I a Sudanese woman.
Awkward phrasing, but you get the picture.
Last edited by Diopolis on Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:01 pm

'Western hypocrisy' in the title, oh this should be amusing.
Alvecia wrote:I'm absolutely against any genital surgery until the person getting the surgery if of consenting age, but as I understand it there are actually some medical benefits to circumcision, whereas FGM has little to none, so comparing the two is actually something of a false equivalence

This basically.

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Community Values
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Postby Community Values » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:02 pm

Diopolis wrote:I am absolutely opposed to elective circumcision. I think infant circumcision should be illegal in the absence of valid medical reasons. It absolutely is mutilation.
But at the same time, it's nothing compared to female genital mutilation in Sudan or wherever, and it's asinine to claim the two are equivalent. Yes, I curse my circumcision routinely. But the thing still works, and it wouldn't were I a Sudanese woman.
Awkward phrasing, but you get the picture.


I shouldn't be allowed to "mutilate" myself, even when it harms no one else?

Are you sure?
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:04 pm

Community Values wrote:
Diopolis wrote:I am absolutely opposed to elective circumcision. I think infant circumcision should be illegal in the absence of valid medical reasons. It absolutely is mutilation.
But at the same time, it's nothing compared to female genital mutilation in Sudan or wherever, and it's asinine to claim the two are equivalent. Yes, I curse my circumcision routinely. But the thing still works, and it wouldn't were I a Sudanese woman.
Awkward phrasing, but you get the picture.


I shouldn't be allowed to "mutilate" myself, even when it harms no one else?

Are you sure?

I would like to get rid of(human)tattooing and most body piercing, but that's besides the point that I only proposed banning infant circumcision. If you're an adult you're welcome to cut yourself with a pocket knife and a bottle of whiskey as long as you don't send me the video.
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Socialist Nordia
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Postby Socialist Nordia » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:17 pm

Circumcision is definitely not as bad as female genital mutilation, but it's still a pretty archaic practice. Things like this are best to be dealt with at an age where one can give informed consent. I am opposed Infant circumcision.
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Postby Risottia » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:26 pm

New Celisia wrote:Today I finished a issue on NS that brought this to my direct attention. The issue gave me several options detailing the specifics of male circumcision within my nation, I chose the option that allowed the procedure on consenting adults and those who need it for a medical reason. Yet I noticed that my Civil Rights index fell sharply due to my decision. It made me think, "Why is there such an outcry against female genital mutilation in third world countries, yet these same individuals who claim to be egalitarians hardly blink an eye when it comes to circumcision in the first world."


Wait.

US =/= the "first world". Take Germany and the circumcision row of some years ago - widely debated on NS too.
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Postby Risottia » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:28 pm

Esternial wrote:
Ifreann wrote:In my experience, calling it "male genital mutilation" is a great way to get people to not listen to you.

You said "genital" lol

Let's call it "the dicksnip" instead.
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The Princes of the Universe
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Postby The Princes of the Universe » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:29 pm

If your kid can take a piss without a problem, leave it the fuck alone. This isn't fucking rocket science.
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Postby Republic of Greater Cuba » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:33 pm

The Princes of the Universe wrote:If your kid can take a piss without a problem, leave it the fuck alone. This isn't fucking rocket science.

This man speaks the truth!

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:40 pm

Risottia wrote:
New Celisia wrote:Today I finished a issue on NS that brought this to my direct attention. The issue gave me several options detailing the specifics of male circumcision within my nation, I chose the option that allowed the procedure on consenting adults and those who need it for a medical reason. Yet I noticed that my Civil Rights index fell sharply due to my decision. It made me think, "Why is there such an outcry against female genital mutilation in third world countries, yet these same individuals who claim to be egalitarians hardly blink an eye when it comes to circumcision in the first world."


Wait.

US =/= the "first world". Take Germany and the circumcision row of some years ago - widely debated on NS too.

The day that we stop using 'first world' 'third world' or 'the west' as catch all terms for a couple billion people there will be much rejoicing.

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Settrah
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Postby Settrah » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:43 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Risottia wrote:
Wait.

US =/= the "first world". Take Germany and the circumcision row of some years ago - widely debated on NS too.

The day that we stop using 'first world' 'third world' or 'the west' as catch all terms for a couple billion people there will be much rejoicing.


I agree. Partly because the first/second/third world terms could mean the level of economic development a nation has, or it could mean the favoured economic system a nation practices as a nod to the allegiances of the cold war. People seem to use both interpretations.

The west is also kind of a flawed term because Australia could be considered 'the west' even though it's not west.
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Ipland
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Postby Ipland » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:43 pm

Deleted.
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Kubumba Tribe
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Postby Kubumba Tribe » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:44 pm

Male circumcision is fine.
Also, since there's a way to cut the tip (apologies for the vulgar language, I don't know the correct term) of the penis without messing the whole genitals up entirely, is there a way to do so for females, or not?
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Nazeroth
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Postby Nazeroth » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:45 pm

circumcision isn't bad, a lot of people actually like having it...I know I do 8)
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Settrah
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Postby Settrah » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:47 pm

Can we stop pretending that penis is a dirty word?

I'm seeing this quite a bit on other threads, people are treating the term like it's a forbidden rude taboo. We are all adults here. It's the anatomical term for a part of the body. Just say what it is.
Last edited by Settrah on Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Kubumba Tribe
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Postby Kubumba Tribe » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:48 pm

Nazeroth wrote:circumcision isn't bad, a lot of people actually like having it...I know I do 8)

Imma find ahadith about cicumcision, I don't know if it's at an infant stage or at puberty...
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Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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Ipland
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Postby Ipland » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:48 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:Male circumcision is fine.
Also, since there's a way to cut the tip (apologies for the vulgar language, I don't know the correct term) of the penis without messing the whole genitals up entirely, is there a way to do so for females, or not?

If they're an adult. Why would someone cut someone without their consent??
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