[discussion] pronoun silliness

[Imperial Union of America]

I understand and respect the rules and moderators -- or atleast i try to -- but this pronoun thing is ridiculous.

I mean, i use male pronouns generally to refer to anyone, unless they have an obviously female name.

I can't imagine i would get in trouble because i forgot somebody's pronoun or was required to use a specific pronoun just because someone prefers it? It seems silly.

must i compile a list of all users and their preferred pronouns lest i run afoul of that rule?

God knows i'll remember today and forget tomorrow. It's rather ridiculous and unwieldy an expectation.

I've been referred to as 'ma'am' or 'her', but i am comfortable with who i am, so i do not expect others who can not see me to assume my gender and conform to my preferred pronouns.

Why does such a rule exist? Why such an insistence on it? I've never been on a site before that had pronoun requirements.

Infact, i don't think i've ever been on a site where someone cared enough about pronouns to begin with, now that i think of it.

I would use preferred pronouns out of respect, because i'm not a dick, but requiring it under the rules seems ridiculous. Banning or red texting someone because they didn't use or forgot to use a preferred pronoun seems silly.

[Flanderlion]

I understand and respect the rules and moderators -- or atleast i try to -- but this pronoun thing is ridiculous.

I mean, i use male pronouns generally to refer to anyone, unless they have an obviously female name.

I can't imagine i would get in trouble because i forgot somebody's pronoun or was required to use a specific pronoun just because someone prefers it? It seems silly.

must i compile a list of all users and their preferred pronouns lest i run afoul of that rule?

God knows i'll remember today and forget tomorrow. It's rather ridiculous and unwieldy an expectation.

I've been referred to as 'ma'am' or 'her', but i am comfortable with who i am, so i do not expect others who can not see me to assume my gender and conform to my preferred pronouns.

Why does such a rule exist? Why such an insistence on it? I've never been on a site before that had pronoun requirements.

Infact, i don't think i've ever been on a site where someone cared enough about pronouns to begin with, now that i think of it.

Meh. I don't see the harm in humouring people if they want to be called something different, as long as it's obvious they want to be called that. It isn't a big deal calling them whatever they want, but it is a big deal to them if they're called something else. I kind of assume male before (and usually after given it is the internet) being told a players gender, but use gender neutral pronouns, no feelings hurt and no need to remember which person prefers to be referred by what.

[Reploid Productions]

It's pretty simple. If someone tells you they're a girl, use feminine pronouns. If they say they're a guy, use masculine pronouns. The misgendering rule comes into play when someone knowingly insists on using the incorrect pronoun after they've been informed what the correct pronoun is to use, as repeatedly using the wrong pronoun serves no other purpose than to needle the target and make them angry- that is, deliberately calling someone who says they're a girl "he" and vice versa is a form of flamebaiting.

Easiest way to avoid the entire thing? The nongendered, singular "they" when you don't know for sure what to use.

[Imperial Union of America]

I understand and respect the rules and moderators -- or atleast i try to -- but this pronoun thing is ridiculous.

I mean, i use male pronouns generally to refer to anyone, unless they have an obviously female name.

I can't imagine i would get in trouble because i forgot somebody's pronoun or was required to use a specific pronoun just because someone prefers it? It seems silly.

must i compile a list of all users and their preferred pronouns lest i run afoul of that rule?

God knows i'll remember today and forget tomorrow. It's rather ridiculous and unwieldy an expectation.

I've been referred to as 'ma'am' or 'her', but i am comfortable with who i am, so i do not expect others who can not see me to assume my gender and conform to my preferred pronouns.

Why does such a rule exist? Why such an insistence on it? I've never been on a site before that had pronoun requirements.

Infact, i don't think i've ever been on a site where someone cared enough about pronouns to begin with, now that i think of it.

Meh. I don't see the harm in humouring people if they want to be called something different, as long as it's obvious they want to be called that. It isn't a big deal calling them whatever they want, but it is a big deal to them if they're called something else. I kind of assume male before (and usually after given it is the internet) being told a players gender, but use gender neutral pronouns, no feelings hurt and no need to remember which person prefers to be referred by what.

It just seems silly to require it by rules. I understand if someone goes out of their way to flame people purposefully. but it seems easy to simply forget a preferred pronoun and seems like such a minor thing. Maybe they are trans and are ultra sensitive? I don't know.

I would use the preferred pronoun, whatever, it just seems silly to ban/warn for it and make a big deal out of it. I use male pronouns generically, but maybe gender-neutral speak should be the rule instead of just requiring preferred pronouns.

I told you 3 months ago that it was 'Her', Remember? BAN BAN WARN WARN, really.

[Vassenor]

See, this is why we need to push singular "they" a little more.

[Imperial Union of America]

It's pretty simple. If someone tells you they're a girl, use feminine pronouns. If they say they're a guy, use masculine pronouns. The misgendering rule comes into play when someone knowingly insists on using the incorrect pronoun after they've been informed what the correct pronoun is to use, as repeatedly using the wrong pronoun serves no other purpose than to needle the target and make them angry- that is, deliberately calling someone who says they're a girl "he" and vice versa is a form of flamebaiting.

Easiest way to avoid the entire thing? The nongendered, singular "they" when you don't know for sure what to use.

My point is that it's silly. I understand going out of your way to be a dick, but really. If somebody kept calling me 'she' i wouldn't throw a fit about it.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Meh. I don't see the harm in humouring people if they want to be called something different, as long as it's obvious they want to be called that. It isn't a big deal calling them whatever they want, but it is a big deal to them if they're called something else. I kind of assume male before (and usually after given it is the internet) being told a players gender, but use gender neutral pronouns, no feelings hurt and no need to remember which person prefers to be referred by what.

It just seems silly to require it by rules. I understand if someone goes out of their way to flame people purposefully. but it seems easy to simply forget a preferred pronoun and seems like such a minor thing. Maybe they are trans and are ultra sensitive? I don't know.

I would use the preferred pronoun, whatever, it just seems silly to ban/warn for it and make a big deal out of it. I use male pronouns generically, but maybe gender-neutral speak should be the rule instead of just requiring preferred pronouns.

I told you 3 months ago that it was 'Her', Remember? BAN BAN WARN WARN, really.

When uncertain, use the singular "they", as others have advised you to do.

[Imperial Union of America]

See, this is why we need to push singular "they" a little more.

Do you think that we should remove all gendered forms from the English language and gender-neutralize it?

It just seems silly to require it by rules. I understand if someone goes out of their way to flame people purposefully. but it seems easy to simply forget a preferred pronoun and seems like such a minor thing. Maybe they are trans and are ultra sensitive? I don't know.

I would use the preferred pronoun, whatever, it just seems silly to ban/warn for it and make a big deal out of it. I use male pronouns generically, but maybe gender-neutral speak should be the rule instead of just requiring preferred pronouns.

I told you 3 months ago that it was 'Her', Remember? BAN BAN WARN WARN, really.

When uncertain, use the singular "they", as others have advised you to do.

They is how i refer to a group of people, not an individual. How is They doing?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, i just think it's silly.

[USS Monitor]

"How are they doing?"

You don't need to use weird capitalization or fuck with the verbs.

Anyway, this rule is not likely to change.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

See, this is why we need to push singular "they" a little more.

Do you think that we should remove all gendered forms from the English language and gender-neutralize it?

When uncertain, use the singular "they", as others have advised you to do.

They is how i refer to a group of people, not an individual. How is They doing?

That should actually be how are they doing, but that's another issue.

The singular "they" takes some getting used to, and it may be rough going at first. I don't think that anyone is going to hold the occasional accidental "he" against you so long as you're willing to apologize for it, correct it, and move on. Just do your best with "they" until it stops feeling awkward.

[Reploid Productions]

My point is that it's silly. I understand going out of your way to be a dick, but really. If somebody kept calling me 'she' i wouldn't throw a fit about it.

You might think it's silly, but before we cracked down on it, it caused a great deal of moderation headaches as it was an easy way for people to troll other users, particularly in the transgender thread. That's why it's for deliberate misgendering, not the accidental one-off. Users you interact with regularly I would imagine you'd be more likely to remember what gender they've said they are, those you don't, forgetting and accidentally using the wrong one now and then isn't a big, OMG BANHAMMER deal.

The use of "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun for single people is a grammatically acceptable substitute for he/she. It wouldn't be "They is doing fine," it'd be "They are doing fine," just like you would use it for plural. If you're that worried about running afoul of misgendering, "they" is basically easy mode to avoid it entirely.

[Imperial Union of America]

I understand where you're coming from, but as someone generally new to this whole concept, i hope you can understand where i'm coming from as well. It was just never an issue anywhere else or on any other forum before, so to see it here, it just seems silly and random.

[Vassenor]

See, this is why we need to push singular "they" a little more.

Do you think that we should remove all gendered forms from the English language and gender-neutralize it?

I think that language reform is a topic for its own thread.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I understand where you're coming from, but as someone generally new to this whole concept, i hope you can understand where i'm coming from as well. It was just never an issue anywhere else or on any other forum before, so to see it here, it just seems silly and random.

No, look, this obviously isn't any sort of "They're the gender that I say they are!" on your part. It's something new to adapt to. There's a learning curve, and everyone gets that. I have every confidence that you'll do your best to adapt.

[Enfaru]

An alternative would be to try and find a way around not using or referring to genders at all. For one example, actually using their name would help.

Instead of, "How is she feeling today" or "How is it feeling today", try "How is Sarah feeling today" or "How is Mr Tiggles feeling" etcetera. It's more polite to use names instead of he/she/they at any rate.

Ultimately this community is quite...well... lefty progressive. It contains a lot of people who have suffered or do suffer from discrimination daily and in the interests of this being a fun and happy place, try to make everyone reasonable comfortable. If that means making it annoying from time to time with regards to silly rules then that's the price we're going to have to pay. As a point of order, I can't find any rule about Mis-gendering, but it would be covered happily under trolling at any rate.

The key theme here is intent. If you don't intend to do it and apologise then no harm done. However if something is pointed out to you and you go on to continue with the gender (even though you have been corrected) then that's intent.

[Sedgistan]

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, i just think it's silly.

You're not the only one. Contrary to popular belief, we're not a hivemind, and there are a few people on the team (myself included) who dislike the "misgendering" ruling. I find it stupid that we allow people to argue that you're the gender of your birth - a widespread view - yet punish people when they use the pronouns appropriate to that belief. I think we've given an unnecessary protection to a vocal group of players, some of whom are too easily offended and need to grow a thicker skin. Anyhow, while I've tried to get this changed on a few occasions, I'm very much in a minority within the team; the majority think the rule is a good thing and should stay in place. I'm afraid you're unlikely to see any movement on this.

[Enfaru]

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, i just think it's silly.

You're not the only one. Contrary to popular belief, we're not a hivemind, and there are a few people on the team (myself included) who dislike the "misgendering" ruling. I find it stupid that we allow people to argue that you're the gender of your birth - a widespread view - yet punish people when they use the pronouns appropriate to that belief. I think we've given an unnecessary protection to a vocal group of players, some of whom are too easily offended and need to grow a thicker skin. Anyhow, while I've tried to get this changed on a few occasions, I'm very much in a minority within the team; the majority think the rule is a good thing and should stay in place. I'm afraid you're unlikely to see any movement on this.

The problem with the "Gender of your birth" is that this isn't always accurate, a lot of people assume either male or female and in some cases Doctors choose male or female which is later been changed as it was wrong. There are examples of natural gender changes. Also there are examples people being non-binary (completely natural and biological not psychological). For example, hermaphrodites, those born without gender characteristics and those who have some weird chromosomal structure. Misgendering someone who was a hermaphrodite at birth as either male or female is literally wrong unless they have chosen to identify as one or the other. They are literally and biologically speaking both male and female. The opposite goes for those who are born without any gender characteristics (and it does happen).

[The Archregimancy]

I told you 3 months ago that it was 'Her', Remember? BAN BAN WARN WARN, really.

That shouldn't happen. Not in an ideal case, anyway. Honest mistakes and honest absent-minded forgetting shouldn't be actionable.

If there are cases where you've been warned for an honest mistake, then a quick explanation that you tend to default to male pronouns when you don't know / can't remember, and that no subtext was intended should generally do the trick. Accidents happen, and that's fine.

Since Sedge has gone public with his disagreement on the rule, I'll note two factors at work here:

1) As Reppy notes, in an ideal world we wouldn't have needed the rule; but we have run into significant problems where people intentionally needled people they disagreed with via the deliberate use of incorrect pronouns. This was something we felt we had to stop.

2) We are, however, aware that there's potential for misuse of the rule to stifle dissent rather than just help improve the tone of debate. That's potentially a problem itself, and one we're aware of; there's scope for a good-faith argument that the pendulum has gone too far in one direction.

Whether the solution is to simply fold deliberate misgendering into the trolling rule, or keep a specific separate rule but rephrase it is something we've looked at. We had an extensive internal discussion earlier this year that regrettably stalled without us reaching a final resolution. It might be time for us to look at this point more closely again; but we'll almost certainly continue to do so in private rather than hash that out here in public (which isn't to say that player viewpoints wouldn't be taken into account).

[Philjia]

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, i just think it's silly.

You're not the only one. Contrary to popular belief, we're not a hivemind, and there are a few people on the team (myself included) who dislike the "misgendering" ruling. I find it stupid that we allow people to argue that you're the gender of your birth - a widespread view - yet punish people when they use the pronouns appropriate to that belief. I think we've given an unnecessary protection to a vocal group of players, some of whom are too easily offended and need to grow a thicker skin. Anyhow, while I've tried to get this changed on a few occasions, I'm very much in a minority within the team; the majority think the rule is a good thing and should stay in place. I'm afraid you're unlikely to see any movement on this.

Authoritarianism is the price paid for running an open forum with centralised control. Unless you'd like to essentially give passive-aggressive trolls a free pass or deregulate control of individual threads, being dictatorial is essentially unavoidable.

[Great Kauthar]

@OP just do what I do, I refer to people who don't identify as their biological gender as they, I asked in moderation a few months back and that was allowed.

[Ethel mermania]

I told you 3 months ago that it was 'Her', Remember? BAN BAN WARN WARN, really.

That shouldn't happen. Not in an ideal case, anyway. Honest mistakes and honest absent-minded forgetting shouldn't be actionable.

If there are cases where you've been warned for an honest mistake, then a quick explanation that you tend to default to male pronouns when you don't know / can't remember, and that no subtext was intended should generally do the trick. Accidents happen, and that's fine.

Since Sedge has gone public with his disagreement on the rule, I'll note two factors at work here:

1) As Reppy notes, in an ideal world we wouldn't have needed the rule; but we have run into significant problems where people intentionally needled people they disagreed with via the deliberate use of incorrect pronouns. This was something we felt we had to stop.

2) We are, however, aware that there's potential for misuse of the rule to stifle dissent rather than just help improve the tone of debate. That's potentially a problem itself, and one we're aware of; there's scope for a good-faith argument that the pendulum has gone too far in one direction.

Whether the solution is to simply fold deliberate misgendering into the trolling rule, or keep a specific separate rule but rephrase it is something we've looked at. We had an extensive internal discussion earlier this year that regrettably stalled without us reaching a final resolution. It might be time for us to look at this point more closely again; but we'll almost certainly continue to do so in private rather than hash that out here in public (which isn't to say that player viewpoints wouldn't be taken into account).

I think you are ok with the concept as it is. Deliberate misgenderING is trolling, and honest mistakes are not. Real life is easier you just call someone as they present.

Now to be honest I think when someone calls someone else "honey", or "dearie", referring to a male coupled with a put down, that should count as misgendering as well, but I think that is a different topic.

[Imperial Union of America]

That shouldn't happen. Not in an ideal case, anyway. Honest mistakes and honest absent-minded forgetting shouldn't be actionable.

If there are cases where you've been warned for an honest mistake, then a quick explanation that you tend to default to male pronouns when you don't know / can't remember, and that no subtext was intended should generally do the trick. Accidents happen, and that's fine.

Since Sedge has gone public with his disagreement on the rule, I'll note two factors at work here:

1) As Reppy notes, in an ideal world we wouldn't have needed the rule; but we have run into significant problems where people intentionally needled people they disagreed with via the deliberate use of incorrect pronouns. This was something we felt we had to stop.

2) We are, however, aware that there's potential for misuse of the rule to stifle dissent rather than just help improve the tone of debate. That's potentially a problem itself, and one we're aware of; there's scope for a good-faith argument that the pendulum has gone too far in one direction.

Whether the solution is to simply fold deliberate misgendering into the trolling rule, or keep a specific separate rule but rephrase it is something we've looked at. We had an extensive internal discussion earlier this year that regrettably stalled without us reaching a final resolution. It might be time for us to look at this point more closely again; but we'll almost certainly continue to do so in private rather than hash that out here in public (which isn't to say that player viewpoints wouldn't be taken into account).

I think you are ok with the concept as it is. Deliberate misgenderING is trolling, and honest mistakes are not. Real life is easier you just call someone as they present.

Now to be honest I think when someone calls someone else "honey", or "dearie", referring to a male coupled with a put down, that should count as misgendering as well, but I think that is a different topic.

I don't understand why people use such descriptions, anyway. "Honey," "Dearie," etc.
I mean, When was the last time anyone used shit like that to refer to complete strangers? That's shit my great grandma would say before she went to Valhalla.

I think it's a problem because it's silly. I don't think someone should get banned unless they are using misgendering to deliberately troll people. Even if someone just disagrees with Transgender or whatever, i think it's silly to ban/warn them for it. You're going to have people who disagree with you. This isn't a transgender forum. if someone is using it just to troll, that's another thing. But i think it should be possible to 'mis-gender' someone if you disagree with their transexuality.

and another thing, i've never seen any website with this issue before. I *assume* it's because of the high number of transexuals here, but i'm just guessing. most people don't give a fuck about that pronoun thing, so it betrays a deep sense of insecurity. If you really are xyz gender, then one must simply learn to grow a thick skin and be comfortable with who they are. That's why i don't get upset if someone keeps calling me 'she.' I ignore it. I don't care, because i know i was born with a phallus, and that is why i am a man.

I've never had the expectation on a forum before that i was required to use someones preferred pronoun or else. it's just silly.

Why is it an issue here but nowhere else? Because one vocal group of people who extremely sensitive and must be cared for with velvet gloves, to protect them from the opinions of others? Maybe they are too sensitive and too easily offended. People have a variety of opinions here. I don't get offended when someone says Mother Mary was a prostitute or some crazy shit like that.

[USS Monitor]

Now to be honest I think when someone calls someone else "honey", or "dearie", referring to a male coupled with a put down, that should count as misgendering as well, but I think that is a different topic.

That kind of thing can come across as condescending, and it might push a post into warnable territory if the rest of the post is borderline, but I don't think that's misgendering. People call children "honey" regardless of gender, so I see it as talking to someone like a child.

[Val Halla]

I think what this ultimately comes down to is whether or not you are a dick about it, right?

If someone posted in response to a post of mine referring to me as male, and it had not said otherwise in the post, that's understandable mistake.

If I have mentioned in said post, or in reply, that I go by female pronouns, and the other poster has gone out their way to ignore that, then it's an issue

Like if you had a friend called Richard but you call him Dick all the time despite him asking you not to, it is, at the very least, a douchebag thing to do, regardless of whether or not you agree.

[Imperial Union of America]

I think what this ultimately comes down to is whether or not you are a dick about it, right?

If someone posted in response to a post of mine referring to me as male, and it had not said otherwise in the post, that's understandable mistake.

If I have mentioned in said post, or in reply, that I go by female pronouns, and the other poster has gone out their way to ignore that, then it's an issue

Like if you had a friend called Richard but you call him Dick all the time despite him asking you not to, it is, at the very least, a douchebag thing to do, regardless of whether or not you agree.

douchebag, sure. but a bannable offense? Unless it was harassment or straight up trolling, i don't think someone calling me by a nickname should be warnable/bannable. Maybe douchebag-like.

I understand the preference for certain pronouns, and i would use them out of respect, but is it really such a big issue that it needs to be against the rules? That seems an extreme reaction to a very, very minor transgression.