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Do You Have to be a Feminist to be Egalitarian?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Should You Have to Call Yourself a Feminist to be Egalitarian?

Feminism IS egalitarianism--of course!
46
21%
Yes--being egalitarian doesn't mean you care about women's issues
13
6%
No, you can be an egalitarian without that
152
68%
I'm not sure and want to discuss it in the thread
12
5%
 
Total votes : 223

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New Edom
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Do You Have to be a Feminist to be Egalitarian?

Postby New Edom » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:58 am

Just about every time some film star or music artist is asked if they are a feminist and they say no, there is an immediate response from feminists to insist that either they are, that they're being ignorant, or that they aren't wanted for the struggle to free women from oppression anyway--a case of sour fame I suppose.

Equality and freedom are broad concepts that a number of ideoogies lay claim to. Feminism, arguably, is specifically about advocacy for women, and a particular approach to that advoacy in most cases at that.

For example, there are a number of kinds of feminism that have achieved popularity or notoreity. However the current dominant form of feminism is 3rd Wave Intersectional Feminism, which proposes the idea that a society's inequalities come from a general approach to authority and leadership called the patriarchy. This used to just mean a society that was led by men, but it has come to mean more than that.

I would like to point out a few things for the purpose of this discussion.

1. I have never condemned the very existence of feminsm. I disagree with some feminist methods, theories and applications of those theories.

2. My concern largely is because feminism is allowed to influence society without serious criticism being accepted by its publicly known leaders and advocates and is presened as tough we should all just accept its claims. This would be one thing if it was just a few university professors, but when it is heads of government doing it then we cannot avoid accepting that feminism has arrived as a philosophy seeking direct public influence.

3. I believe that all ideologies should be questioned and all advocates of those ideologies shoud be questioned. Feminists have called for public conversations about their ideas, and I am responding. It may not be how they wanted, but I believe we live in a free marketplace of ideas. We cannot be bombarded with 'we need to talk about rape culture!/women's education!/whatever' without a response being expected.

4. I personally believe that demanding that people identify with a movement in order to demonstrate values is contrary to what I believe about freedom. I don't think you should have to call yoruself a Christian, for instance, to say that you believe in charity, forgiveness and faithfulness in marriage. Those are simply values, and they don't come without believing in a bunch of other stuff if you also say you are a Christian. Christianity doesn't own those values, it merely proposes that its believers have them.


So all this having been said--should you have to call yourself a feminist to be egalitarian about relations betwen men and women? Or should it be possible to find common ground and compromise on common interests without worrying about what we call one another?
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Socialist Nordia
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Postby Socialist Nordia » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:01 am

What is it with you and feminism? You make thread after thread about it.
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New Edom
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Postby New Edom » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:02 am

Socialist Nordia wrote:What is it with you and feminism? You make thread after thread about it.


Well as I've explained above I've been told by many people how important a subject the ones I've brought up are, and the subjects are inf act clear subjects on their own. Do you think the questions I raise are unimportant?
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

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Frenline Delpha
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Postby Frenline Delpha » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:08 am

I think the pbvious answer is no. No idealogy owns an idea. Christians do not own morality. Feminism doesn't own equality. And no, the dictionary doesn't count.
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The first Galactic Republic
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Postby The first Galactic Republic » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:09 am

Socialist Nordia wrote:What is it with you and feminism? You make thread after thread about it.

Nothing new with this forum. Business as usual.
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A very good link right here.

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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:11 am

Another feminist thread!

Yes, you do. Just like you have to be an anti-capitalist to be an egalitarian (although not all anti-capitalists or feminists are so).
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:12 am

A friend of mine once told me that he considers himself what "feminists want to be", which is an egalitarian.
He also rejected the notions of patriotism or reverent national pride, so he clearly believes himself to be an egalitarian, quite deeply.

This made me more sure than ever that many arguments against feminism by people who ascribe to ideals that feminism also holds, are fundamentally based in a poor branding of "feminism".

Which is kind of sad, really.
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Frenline Delpha
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Postby Frenline Delpha » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:12 am

The New Sea Territory wrote:Another feminist thread!

Yes, you do. Just like you have to be an anti-capitalist to be an egalitarian (although not all anti-capitalists or feminists are so).

I diagree. Care to explain your reasoning?
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:13 am

Frenline Delpha wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:Another feminist thread!

Yes, you do. Just like you have to be an anti-capitalist to be an egalitarian (although not all anti-capitalists or feminists are so).

I diagree. Care to explain your reasoning?


Anyone who calls themselves an egalitarian but supports an inherently hierarchical and exploitative economic system is clearly joking.
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"Christianity had brutally planted the poisoned blade in the healthy, quivering flesh of all humanity; it had goaded a cold wave
of darkness with mystically brutal fury to dim the serene and festive exultation of the dionysian spirit of our pagan ancestors."
-Renzo Novatore, Verso il Nulla Creatore

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Equalaria
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Postby Equalaria » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:14 am

Feminism is all about equality. The male power structures of the past were predicated on domination, exploitation and forced subservience of women. Feminism espouses true equality by first righting these wrongs via empowerment of women. Through this, we can have true equality by destroying the broken and virulent system of patriarchy, in favor of a feminist idealology of fairness for all.

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Frenline Delpha
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Postby Frenline Delpha » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:15 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:A friend of mine once told me that he considers himself what "feminists want to be", which is an egalitarian.
He also rejected the notions of patriotism or reverent national pride, so he clearly believes himself to be an egalitarian, quite deeply.

This made me more sure than ever that many arguments against feminism by people who ascribe to ideals that feminism also holds, are fundamentally based in a poor branding of "feminism".

Which is kind of sad, really.

Then get your movement under control. Weed out the bad apples (of which there are MANY) and appoint sensible leaders for the movement. Until that happens, feminism will continue to look unappealing to 77% of women and 84% of men.
I don't know how long I'll be back, but I just thought I'd stop in and say hi, at least.

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Frenline Delpha
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Postby Frenline Delpha » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:15 am

The New Sea Territory wrote:
Frenline Delpha wrote:I diagree. Care to explain your reasoning?


Anyone who calls themselves an egalitarian but supports an inherently hierarchical and exploitative economic system is clearly joking.

So, you believe in equality of outcome, I take it?
I don't know how long I'll be back, but I just thought I'd stop in and say hi, at least.

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Frenline Delpha
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Postby Frenline Delpha » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:16 am

Equalaria wrote:Feminism is all about equality. The male power structures of the past were predicated on domination, exploitation and forced subservience of women. Feminism espouses true equality by first righting these wrongs via empowerment of women. Through this, we can have true equality by destroying the broken and virulent system of patriarchy, in favor of a feminist idealology of fairness for all.

Fairness for all those male rape victims? Or do those not count?
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Chessmistress
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Postby Chessmistress » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:18 am

I voted
"Yes--being egalitarian doesn't mean you care about women's issues"
But my position is slightly different: I think that most "egalitarians" are, actually, perpetuating inequalities - most them are doing it unwillingly, at least I hope (I'm not even sure about that: it can be even the majority of "egalitarians" who are in fact acting in bad faith).
That's explained, very well, even in the WFE of The Feminist Region
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https://www.nationstates.net/region=the_feminist_region

I think that's ridiculous pretending to be "egalitarians" in a situation where there's a very clear and very strong unbalancement of power.
It's very clear that such position is being used just only to keep such unbalancement.
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Community Values
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Postby Community Values » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:18 am

I dunno. As a whole, I guess Feminism is equality, but most individuals that are feminist I don't find to be egalitarian. I guess the idea of feminism is equal, but the people are not?
"Corrupted by wealth and power, your government is like a restaurant with only one dish. They've got a set of Republican waiters on one side and a set of Democratic waiters on the other side. But no matter which set of waiters brings you the dish, the legislative grub is all prepared in the same Wall Street kitchen."
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:20 am

Frenline Delpha wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:A friend of mine once told me that he considers himself what "feminists want to be", which is an egalitarian.
He also rejected the notions of patriotism or reverent national pride, so he clearly believes himself to be an egalitarian, quite deeply.

This made me more sure than ever that many arguments against feminism by people who ascribe to ideals that feminism also holds, are fundamentally based in a poor branding of "feminism".

Which is kind of sad, really.

Then get your movement under control. Weed out the bad apples (of which there are MANY) and appoint sensible leaders for the movement. Until that happens, feminism will continue to look unappealing to 77% of women and 84% of men.

lol
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
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Socialist Tera
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Postby Socialist Tera » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:20 am

I support feminists and I am an ally but I can never be a feminist cause I am a male.

Frenline Delpha wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:A friend of mine once told me that he considers himself what "feminists want to be", which is an egalitarian.
He also rejected the notions of patriotism or reverent national pride, so he clearly believes himself to be an egalitarian, quite deeply.

This made me more sure than ever that many arguments against feminism by people who ascribe to ideals that feminism also holds, are fundamentally based in a poor branding of "feminism".

Which is kind of sad, really.

Then get your movement under control. Weed out the bad apples (of which there are MANY) and appoint sensible leaders for the movement. Until that happens, feminism will continue to look unappealing to 77% of women and 84% of men.

Citations needed.
Last edited by Socialist Tera on Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Equalaria
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Postby Equalaria » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:20 am

Frenline Delpha wrote:
Equalaria wrote:Feminism is all about equality. The male power structures of the past were predicated on domination, exploitation and forced subservience of women. Feminism espouses true equality by first righting these wrongs via empowerment of women. Through this, we can have true equality by destroying the broken and virulent system of patriarchy, in favor of a feminist idealology of fairness for all.

Fairness for all those male rape victims? Or do those not count?


This issue was discussed at length already. Male rape victims are incarcerated, they committed crimes. Women are raped at higher rates, for doing nothing more than trying to exist. The equality comes in saying that women should not be raped at such astronomical rates, something that is given blessing by patriarchy and by extension, traditional male-centric thinking.

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Frenline Delpha
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Postby Frenline Delpha » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:21 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Frenline Delpha wrote:Then get your movement under control. Weed out the bad apples (of which there are MANY) and appoint sensible leaders for the movement. Until that happens, feminism will continue to look unappealing to 77% of women and 84% of men.

lol

So, you want to constantly want to be in damage control mode? Good for you, then.
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Bogdanov Vishniac
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Postby Bogdanov Vishniac » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:22 am

New Edom wrote: However the current dominant form of feminism is 3rd Wave Intersectional Feminism, which proposes the idea that a society's inequalities come from a general approach to authority and leadership called the patriarchy. This used to just mean a society that was led by men, but it has come to mean more than that.


Patriarchy does not mean 'rule by men'. Strictly speaking that would be 'andrarchy'. Patriarchy refers to a system where males that fulfill a particular archetype or series of archetypes are given social privileges over women and males who do not fulfill the archetype.

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Frenline Delpha
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Postby Frenline Delpha » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:22 am

Socialist Tera wrote:I support feminists and I am an ally but I can never be a feminist cause I am a male.

Frenline Delpha wrote:Then get your movement under control. Weed out the bad apples (of which there are MANY) and appoint sensible leaders for the movement. Until that happens, feminism will continue to look unappealing to 77% of women and 84% of men.

Citations needed.

That s at the end if funny. Here is one for you: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sens ... feminists/
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Socialist Tera
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Postby Socialist Tera » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:22 am

Equalaria wrote:
Frenline Delpha wrote:Fairness for all those male rape victims? Or do those not count?


This issue was discussed at length already. Male rape victims are incarcerated, they committed crimes. Women are raped at higher rates, for doing nothing more than trying to exist. The equality comes in saying that women should not be raped at such astronomical rates, something that is given blessing by patriarchy and by extension, traditional male-centric thinking.

It is typical of gender roles. Both genders have to reform how they think not just males I hate to bring it out to you. Non-feminist females are just as guilty in accepting the patriarchy as males
Frenline Delpha wrote:
Socialist Tera wrote:I support feminists and I am an ally but I can never be a feminist cause I am a male.


Citations needed.

That s at the end if funny. Here is one for you: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sens ... feminists/

Where the fuck is their method of data collection and the statistics?
Last edited by Socialist Tera on Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Frenline Delpha
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Postby Frenline Delpha » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:23 am

Equalaria wrote:
Frenline Delpha wrote:Fairness for all those male rape victims? Or do those not count?


This issue was discussed at length already. Male rape victims are incarcerated, they committed crimes. Women are raped at higher rates, for doing nothing more than trying to exist. The equality comes in saying that women should not be raped at such astronomical rates, something that is given blessing by patriarchy and by extension, traditional male-centric thinking.

Wow. Tumblr really did infect you. I am so sorry.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:23 am

Frenline Delpha wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:
Anyone who calls themselves an egalitarian but supports an inherently hierarchical and exploitative economic system is clearly joking.

So, you believe in equality of outcome, I take it?

Yes, that is egalitarianism.
Frenline Delpha wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:lol

So, you want to constantly want to be in damage control mode? Good for you, then.

Feminism isn't a movement, it's a school of thought. There are "feminist movements", but that is not the same thing.
I do not identify as a feminist because I don't believe I should need to have a label for a social outlook of "we're people".

So, there's two reasons why it's not "my movement".
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Community Values
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Postby Community Values » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:23 am

I dunno. As a whole, I guess Feminism is equality, but most individuals that are feminist I don't find to be egalitarian. I guess the idea of feminism is equal, but the people are not?
"Corrupted by wealth and power, your government is like a restaurant with only one dish. They've got a set of Republican waiters on one side and a set of Democratic waiters on the other side. But no matter which set of waiters brings you the dish, the legislative grub is all prepared in the same Wall Street kitchen."
-Huey Long

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