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Moral Objectivism vs. Interpretive Subjectivism: A Conflict?

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Moral Objectivism vs. Interpretive Subjectivism: A Conflict?

Postby Midewin » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:19 pm

One of the hallmarks of the Abrahamic religions, of which Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the most significant subsets, is the claim to moral objectivism that was originally made by each of these religions. By "moral objectivism," we are referring to a position in moral philosophy that holds that certain moral statements are universally true or universally false at a given time. By definition, a statement possesses the quality of objectivity if and only if that statement possesses a truth value that is independent of individual interpretations. Any given statement cannot be universally true or false unless the truth value of that same statement is completely independent of individual human interpretation. For example, the statement 1 + 1 = 2 is an objectively true statement, because it is true regardless of what anyone thinks. Even if all human beings were to suddenly vanish, the statement 1 + 1 = 2 would still be true, even if absolutely nobody in the universe actually knows that equation. Likewise, even if all human beings were somehow brainwashed into thinking that 1 + 1 = 3, it does not logically follow that 1 + 1 = 3 is actually true. Because this statement has an objective truth value, the opinions of human beings have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the truth value of the statement.

The philosophical position of moral objectivism asserts that moral statements, like the mathematical statement 1 + 1 = 2, can also have objective truth value, meaning that they are either true or false regardless of what any individual human being thinks. For example, a moral objectivist might assert that the moral statement "One ought not kill other humans" is objectively true, meaning that killing other humans is universally wrong (immoral). If any person or any culture engages in, supports, or condones the killing of other humans, then that person or culture would be deemed to be objectively immoral in this moral objectivist framework.

As you can imagine, moral objectivism is an attractive position for many people, because it offers a feeling of moral certitude and a sense of natural law that transcends individual human beings. In the absence of objective morality, there can be no absolute moral certitude, and all systems of morality would have to be derived from subjective human opinion. Because human beings are fallible and imperfect beings, there is always the specter that our subjective moral systems are by extension fallible and imperfect. Such a concern naturally leads to insecurity and anxiety, sometimes on a massive scale (often associated with societal upheaval of some sort, which is often followed by the advent of some new religion or ideology or a call to return to old ways), and it seems to me that the desire to follow a perfect code of morality that is free of all human corruption is part of what made the Abrahamic religions in particular (which make claims to moral objectivism) so attractive to so many people throughout history. The Abrahamic religions offer a degree of certitude and solace that is unmatched by virtually any other ideology or belief system, leading to unparalleled psychological attachment among the followers of these religions.

In the Abrahamic tradition, what exactly is the source of morality, and what makes this morality objective? The answer to the first question is God Himself. It is God that promulgates moral statements for human beings to follow. The most famous and most explicit example of God promulgating morality to human beings can be seen in the revelation of the Ten Commandments - a collection of ten moral statements - from God to Moses. To answer the second question, the Ten Commandments possess the quality of objectivity because their ultimate source (God) is separate from all human beings. If God is separate from human beings, then it logically follows that the moral statements issued by God are themselves separate from human beings, such that certain moral statements would still retain their truth value even if all human beings disbelieved in God, or all human beings followed some other system of morality.

At face value, this argument makes sense (given, of course, the initial assumption that the Abrahamic God does in fact exist), and indeed presents a strong case for tying moral objectivism with religion (specifically the Abrahamic religions). However, there is a significant pitfall: God does not talk to us human beings directly, and the practical source of morality is not God Himself, but actually the written texts (and to be more precise, particular interpretations of written texts) which purport to contain His Word. If God Himself actually appeared before humanity and directly issued moral commands to us, in such a way that was empirically verifiable, then we could indeed say without hesitation that these moral commands pertain to objective moral truths that exist separately of any individual human being's interpretation, opinion, or imagination. However, this is not the case. What we have instead are written texts which are open to interpretation, and it is the interpretations of the written texts which ultimately guide our morality. The act of interpretation is, by its very nature, a subjective act, and as such, our sense of morality which we derive from our interpretation of a holy text (whatever that text may be) must also necessarily be subjective to some degree.

A simple example from current events can be used to illustrate this point. As many are no doubt aware, the group known as ISIS or Islamic State has carried out a spree of violent killings, rapes, and sexual enslavement throughout large swathes of the Middle East over the past two years. Are these acts merely the result of a depraved nihilism? Many would say "yes," but the group itself has clearly and adamantly maintained, from the very beginning, that its actions are in accordance with the Quran and the Sunnah (established traditions and sayings of Muhammad). Whenever ISIS carries out one of its major attacks, it almost always makes sure to provide scriptural justification. For example Quran 4:24 permits Muslim men to have sex with captured slaves ("those who your right hands possess"), which established a theological justification for ISIS to engage in sexual slavery. Likewise, Quran 9:29 urges Muslims to "fight against those who disbelieve" (i.e. infidels) until they are humbled and pay jizyah (religious head tax), and ISIS uses this verse to justify their attacks on disbelievers and monetary exactions. Now, it is perfectly possible for a Muslim to reject this interpretation and denounce ISIS as "false Muslims," but the relevant question is: what makes YOU and other "moderate Muslims" right, and what makes ISIS wrong? It is not sufficient to simply say that the vast majority of Muslims do not agree with with ISIS. Even if 99.9% of all Muslims strongly disapproved of ISIS, and only 0.01% of Muslims approve of ISIS, that by itself is not proof that ISIS is objectively immoral according to Islam.

In order to show that ISIS is objectively wrong, you have to show that ISIS is wrong regardless of what the prevalent opinion is - to argue otherwise is to commit the logically fallacy of argumentum ad populum. If 99.9% of people believe that the sun revolves around the earth, they are not correct simply by virtue of being in the overwhelming majority; the 0.01% who believe that the earth revolves around the sun are still correct, because they hold a position that is objectively true. Likewise, it is perfectly possible for ISIS to be more "correct" than other Muslims despite making up only a small percentage of the total Muslim population; the remaining "moderate" Muslims are not "better Muslims" than ISIS simply by virtue of being in the majority. In Islam, as with other Abrahamic religions, it is Allah who judges what is right and wrong (as well as Muhammad, who for all intents and purposes is a demigod in Islam), not the so-called "moderate Muslim." Because no moderate Muslim is identical to Allah or Muhammad, no moderate Muslim can say with certitude that ISIS is morally wrong within the framework of Islam. The best they can do is offer their own interpretations in contradistinction to those of ISIS, or cite other scholars (i.e. other interpretations) that critique ISIS, but they are unable to show that their particular interpretation is objectively correct while that of ISIS is objectively wrong. Thus, from this one example, we can see the inability of religion to provide a clear sense of objective morality, as the only practical morality is that of the subjective interpretation that we chose to accept, and there is no means of objectively determining which interpretation is "correct" in the absence of direct guidance from God Himself.

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Postby Socialist Nordia » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:39 pm

I don't believe in moral objectivism. All moral codes are subjective.
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Postby Euanos » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:43 pm

I believe in moral objectivity and that it has to be found. Without objectivity, no one has a right to claim that the Nazi's were truly wrong for the genocide of Jews, Gypsies, Handicaps and Homosexuals. I think its too easy a route to go to say that all morality is subjective and that no one is held accountable for anything.

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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:47 pm

Euanos wrote:I believe in moral objectivity and that it has to be found. Without objectivity, no one has a right to claim that the Nazi's were truly wrong for the genocide of Jews, Gypsies, Handicaps and Homosexuals. I think its too easy a route to go to say that all morality is subjective and that no one is held accountable for anything.


Nonsense. They were wrong from a subjective standpoint, albeit one shared by most in the Western world.

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Postby Jumalariik » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:50 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Euanos wrote:I believe in moral objectivity and that it has to be found. Without objectivity, no one has a right to claim that the Nazi's were truly wrong for the genocide of Jews, Gypsies, Handicaps and Homosexuals. I think its too easy a route to go to say that all morality is subjective and that no one is held accountable for anything.


Nonsense. They were wrong from a subjective standpoint, albeit one shared by most in the Western world.

That doesn't make it wrong.

I do believe in objective morality, being Christian. I think that just as God created numbers, universal laws, universal concepts, animals, people, He also create moral truths.
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Postby Neutraligon » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:52 pm

Jumalariik wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Nonsense. They were wrong from a subjective standpoint, albeit one shared by most in the Western world.

That doesn't make it wrong.

I do believe in objective morality, being Christian. I think that just as God created numbers, universal laws, universal concepts, animals, people, He also create moral truths.

Since they are moral truths as far as gods opinion is concerned they would still be subjective to the mind of god.
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Postby Jumalariik » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:53 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Jumalariik wrote:That doesn't make it wrong.

I do believe in objective morality, being Christian. I think that just as God created numbers, universal laws, universal concepts, animals, people, He also create moral truths.

Since they are moral truths as far as gods opinion is concerned they would still be subjective to the mind of god.

You'd not say the same of math rules? I think they have equal bearing in reality.
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Postby The Great Devourer of All » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:54 pm

Moral objectivism sounds great, but doesn't exist.
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Postby Neutraligon » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:54 pm

Jumalariik wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Since they are moral truths as far as gods opinion is concerned they would still be subjective to the mind of god.

You'd not say the same of math rules? I think they have equal bearing in reality.

I am not sure what you mean by math rules.
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Postby Jumalariik » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:54 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Jumalariik wrote:You'd not say the same of math rules? I think they have equal bearing in reality.

I am not sure what you mean by math rules.

2+2=4
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Postby Neutraligon » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:55 pm

Jumalariik wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:I am not sure what you mean by math rules.

2+2=4

For which we have proof assuming of course you accept the definition of 2, +, =, and 4. Morals on the other hand are opinions on whether an action should or should not be taken.
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Postby Jumalariik » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:56 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Jumalariik wrote:2+2=4

For which we have proof assuming of course you accept the definition of 2, +, =, and 4. Morals on the other hand are opinions on whether an action should or should not be taken.

Well, I'd say that morals are provable, just in a different way.
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Postby Neutraligon » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:57 pm

Jumalariik wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:For which we have proof assuming of course you accept the definition of 2, +, =, and 4. Morals on the other hand are opinions on whether an action should or should not be taken.

Well, I'd say that morals are provable, just in a different way.

Since morals are opinions they cannot have proof.
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Postby New confederate ramenia » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:58 pm

Jumalariik wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:For which we have proof assuming of course you accept the definition of 2, +, =, and 4. Morals on the other hand are opinions on whether an action should or should not be taken.

Well, I'd say that morals are provable, just in a different way.

You would have to prove morals, like you have to prove math theorems, based on a priori axioms or rules. And people can never agree on the a priori moral truths.
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:02 pm

Jumalariik wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Nonsense. They were wrong from a subjective standpoint, albeit one shared by most in the Western world.

That doesn't make it wrong.

I do believe in objective morality, being Christian. I think that just as God created numbers, universal laws, universal concepts, animals, people, He also create moral truths.


Of course it does. It makes it wrong from my point of view, and the points of view of many others. We're not looking at a universal law like gravitation, here. You can obviously believe whatever you wish regarding where it comes from, but absent some sort of objective, verifiable truth of your proposition, I'd say that a study of history shows that morality is incredibly subjective. Hell, past governments, including Christian ones, saw the genocide of Jews as an objective good. Marrying prepubescent girls was relatively common in any number of cultures. Some cultures were overtly accepting of homosexuality, others condemned it. Many were polygamous, others monogamous, and still others were polygamous at one point, but later became monogamous. People work with the morals that seem to keep their civilizations stable within whatever context they're living in.

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Postby Jumalariik » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:03 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Jumalariik wrote:Well, I'd say that morals are provable, just in a different way.

Since morals are opinions they cannot have proof.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon_on_the_Mount

If we can assert that universal laws have an existence and the ability to cause, and believe, as I do that God created them, it would follow that there is also the possibility for moral laws with such truth. I'd say that just as God made 1+1=2 to be readily knowable to be true, the evil that is murder has the same.
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Postby Neutraligon » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:06 pm

Jumalariik wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Since morals are opinions they cannot have proof.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon_on_the_Mount

If we can assert that universal laws have an existence and the ability to cause, and believe, as I do that God created them, it would follow that there is also the possibility for moral laws with such truth. I'd say that just as God made 1+1=2 to be readily knowable to be true, the evil that is murder has the same.

I disagree with your claim of a god existing. I fail to see why universal laws have an existence. These claims that you have made right there are subjective.
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:07 pm

Jumalariik wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Since morals are opinions they cannot have proof.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon_on_the_Mount

If we can assert that universal laws have an existence and the ability to cause, and believe, as I do that God created them, it would follow that there is also the possibility for moral laws with such truth. I'd say that just as God made 1+1=2 to be readily knowable to be true, the evil that is murder has the same.


Physical laws have an existence. You have not proven the objective existence of a moral law. An existence of God must be taken on faith, as there is no verifiable way to test the assertion of the existence of God (and I say that as a believer). The fact that people have written down moral codes does not mean that they can be said to exist in the same way as physical laws any more than writing a story about a unicorn proves their physical existence.

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Postby The New Sea Territory » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:13 pm

Jumalariik wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Nonsense. They were wrong from a subjective standpoint, albeit one shared by most in the Western world.

That doesn't make it wrong.


I don't have to project my subjective valuations onto a deity or deity-esque abstraction to justify my condemnation of actions I dislike and will actively combat...this is why I am an ardent anti-fascist. Genocide, like every other action, is an action; moral judgments are projected onto the action by individuals who decide whether they support it or not.

Personally, I don't support genocide, but I do support direct confrontation of it, by all means necessary.
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Postby Jumalariik » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:39 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Jumalariik wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon_on_the_Mount

If we can assert that universal laws have an existence and the ability to cause, and believe, as I do that God created them, it would follow that there is also the possibility for moral laws with such truth. I'd say that just as God made 1+1=2 to be readily knowable to be true, the evil that is murder has the same.

I disagree with your claim of a god existing. I fail to see why universal laws have an existence. These claims that you have made right there are subjective.

They are debatable, but are either objectively true or false.


Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Jumalariik wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon_on_the_Mount

If we can assert that universal laws have an existence and the ability to cause, and believe, as I do that God created them, it would follow that there is also the possibility for moral laws with such truth. I'd say that just as God made 1+1=2 to be readily knowable to be true, the evil that is murder has the same.


Physical laws have an existence. You have not proven the objective existence of a moral law. An existence of God must be taken on faith, as there is no verifiable way to test the assertion of the existence of God (and I say that as a believer). The fact that people have written down moral codes does not mean that they can be said to exist in the same way as physical laws any more than writing a story about a unicorn proves their physical existence.

Well if we take on faith that they were written by God, this makes sense.
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:31 pm

Jumalariik wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:I disagree with your claim of a god existing. I fail to see why universal laws have an existence. These claims that you have made right there are subjective.

They are debatable, but are either objectively true or false.


Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Physical laws have an existence. You have not proven the objective existence of a moral law. An existence of God must be taken on faith, as there is no verifiable way to test the assertion of the existence of God (and I say that as a believer). The fact that people have written down moral codes does not mean that they can be said to exist in the same way as physical laws any more than writing a story about a unicorn proves their physical existence.

Well if we take on faith that they were written by God, this makes sense.


That's an enormous "if". The usual standard for something to be considered objective fact requires observable and consistently repeatable evidence. Therefore, you may think that this is objective, but it doesn't meet the general standard to describe it as such.

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Postby Lady Scylla » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:06 pm

Jumalariik wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:I disagree with your claim of a god existing. I fail to see why universal laws have an existence. These claims that you have made right there are subjective.

They are debatable, but are either objectively true or false.


Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Physical laws have an existence. You have not proven the objective existence of a moral law. An existence of God must be taken on faith, as there is no verifiable way to test the assertion of the existence of God (and I say that as a believer). The fact that people have written down moral codes does not mean that they can be said to exist in the same way as physical laws any more than writing a story about a unicorn proves their physical existence.

Well if we take on faith that they were written by God, this makes sense.


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Postby Lady Scylla » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:13 pm

The problem with Objective Morality is that it fails to address moral quandaries already present in society, such as why those who commit crimes might escape retribution. It also conflicts with the presence of God. If we're to assume that God exists, and that he is the originator of our universe, then what he determines to be right or wrong (or even that 1+1=2) is still a subjective assertion. This means that, regardless, objective moral truth is impossible with even God in the equation, unless, we consider the possibility that God didn't make the universe, and such assertion is the result of natural law (and thus with no moral preference). In fact, under such a possibility, I may as well entrust my faith into a rock with its inability to hold any moral principles over that of God, who determined x is wrong, and y is right. And that's the main problem with 'Objective Moral Truth' -- something with objective morality doesn't hold a preference, it's leanings on moral principles are non-existent.

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Postby 36 Camera Perspective » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:43 pm

Objective moral truths are whatever perfectly rational beings would agree upon in a social contract.
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Ex-Nation

Postby New Werpland » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:51 pm

36 Camera Perspective wrote:Objective moral truths are whatever perfectly rational beings would agree upon in a social contract.

So consensus is all that is needed to make something real?

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