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Women in Nationstates

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Kshrlmnt
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Women in Nationstates

Postby Kshrlmnt » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:18 pm

Not everyone can be easily categorized—but I have noticed that the majority of longterm or well-known female NS players (gameplayers, at least) actually do fit into several main categories, though they certainly do change or combine categories at times. This may also describe women outside NS too, but I suspect there are more categories in real life.

Read first: Please use discretion if you speculate about what category a woman may belong to. While most categories are neutral in implication, speculation of any with negative implications should be skipped or reserved for private chat instead of public forums. Feel free to tell me if I'm right or wrong in this thread, but be careful about naming names.

Women in Nationstates

The Women: This is the first and largest group. By and large, the Women are fairly strong and independent, and hold their own in often male-dominated arenas. They’re decently likely to stick to one or two main regions or organizations, and will often end up in the region’s leadership. There are two major subtypes of the Women.
The Atalantas: Like the mythological Atalanta, this woman excels in the more autocratic or martial areas of NS. She succeeds via competence in what she does, and it gets her respect and advancement. She’ll often, with time, be a leader or the leader in her region, most likely via promotion or appointment.
The Eleanor Roosevelts: The Eleanor Roosevelt generally operates in more political and cultural areas of NS. While no less competent, she’s more of a stateswoman than a warrior and relies more on diplomacy and politics; she's more likely to gain office by democratic processes.

The Divas: Divas tend to be rare but extremely noticeable; their defining characteristic is the cult of personality that surrounds them. They’re much more likely to region-hop, and their followers may go with them. They’ll generally end up at or near the top of their next region fairly quickly. There are three types of Divas.
The Belle Boyds: A Belle Boyd is known and adored, but she’s not afraid to do her own work. She’s often pretty capable at it, too.
The Pickle Jars: A Pickle Jar may or may not be able to do something well herself, but she tends to delegate and get a decent amount of tasks done by one of her followers instead of herself. A Pickle Jar may become a Belle Boyd in time, or may be a Belle Boyd who has less time or more to do than she used to.
The Black Widows: NS romances happen, and one fling with a region’s leader that gets her in a position of power may be an innocent coincidence. If these influential romances happens multiple times and/or in multiple regions, she’s probably a Black Widow. The Black Widow may also be a Belle Boyd or a Pickle Jar, but that won’t be what people remember when she’s gone.

The Kawaiis: Whether it’s due to personality or age, the Kawaiis are defined by their cuteness. They’re fun to have around and easy to get along with, but may be more likely to be spread between several regions simultaneously and less likely to reach leadership positions. They tend to be slightly rare, but are generally well-liked, and aren't restricted to the 'nice' regions.
The Perma-Kawaiis: Perma-Kawaiis love the Kawaii life and stay there longterm. They may also be more pronouncedly cute.
The Newbies: It's not uncommon for women just joining NS to be fairly Kawaii before settling into another category. It may be due to newness, age, or another factor; the defining factor is that this is a stage instead of an end state.

The Godmothers: Godmothers may have once been one of the other types of women, but have since somewhat retired. They're generally not currently very active themselves, but keep an eye on the game and often serve as helpers, advisors, or friends to younger players. They've learned from their time in NS and are willing to share the benefits of their experience with others.

The Admiral Ackbars: The Admiral Ackbar uses a girly avatar and talks like a girl, but isn’t one. This may be done due to gender identity, personality, or quirkiness, or it may be done for a purpose. The most noticeable of the former are often Kawaiis. When done for a purpose, it’s generally either for humor or obtaining information.

--with thanks to an Atalanta, a Godmother, and several male friends for their input
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Yuno34
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Postby Yuno34 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:54 pm

O_O
I feel like I'm on here..kinda.

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Tom Vasentius HYDRA
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Postby Tom Vasentius HYDRA » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:27 pm

Yuno34 wrote:O_O
I feel like I'm on here..kinda.

You're definitely on there :P
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:35 am

This is just as big a piece of drivel as the NS Generations piece of ages ago.

And here's why:

viewtopic.php?p=3404756#p3404756
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Postby Belschaft » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:23 am

Kshrlmnt wrote:The Admiral Ackbars: The Admiral Ackbar uses a girly avatar and talks like a girl, but isn’t one. This may be done due to gender identity, personality, or quirkiness, or it may be done for a purpose. The most noticeable of the former are often Kawaiis. When done for a purpose, it’s generally either for humor or obtaining information.

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Postby Mousebumples » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:52 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:This is just as big a piece of drivel as the NS Generations piece of ages ago.

And here's why:

viewtopic.php?p=3404756#p3404756

I tend to agree. I see parts of myself (and other female players) in some of those descriptors, but to boil down our selves and our accomplishments to just that kind of label ignores so much of what we've done and who we are.
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Postby Bears Armed » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:53 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:This is just as big a piece of drivel as the NS Generations piece of ages ago.

Quite a few of the players who commented at the time, myself included, felt that the definitions given for our "generations" did fit quite well.
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Postby Almonaster Nuevo » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:18 am

And then there are people, who play the game.
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The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness
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Postby The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:20 am

L o n d o n

who cares if someone's a woman on this forum and what category they fit in, as long as they're a decent person
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Postby The Archregimancy » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:22 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:This is just as big a piece of drivel as the NS Generations piece of ages ago.

And here's why:

viewtopic.php?p=3404756#p3404756


There are two types of people, those who absolutely insist on classifying people by group, and those who utterly reject classifying people by group.

I'm firmly in the second category.

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:01 am

Bears Armed wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:This is just as big a piece of drivel as the NS Generations piece of ages ago.

Quite a few of the players who commented at the time, myself included, felt that the definitions given for our "generations" did fit quite well.


And for quite a few it also wasn't.

It's like horoscopes.

Fun, but dangerous when that's the only "lens you're looking through".
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Kshrlmnt
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Postby Kshrlmnt » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:03 am

Thank you for your honest replies.

I tend to think of this as closer to Myers-Briggs than horoscopes, but they all do fit in the same category in that yes, they do require an amount of confirmation bias to be believed--and no, they certainly don't describe everything about a person, or even always entirely fit! Their value, I think, lies in giving us a new way to consider ourselves and the world around us.

It would most certainly be a mistake to look at this list or any other of its type and thing that "your" characterization is the sum of who you are. But if it gives pause for self-reflection and occasionally self-discovery, then it may have some worth.

On another note, it was suggested by one of my prereaders that this might not be a description of types of women so much as social strategies women use. I found that an interesting consideration, personally--and perhaps a better way of looking at it than my own!
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Postby Reploid Productions » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:27 am

Kshrlmnt wrote:I tend to think of this as closer to Myers-Briggs

Sooo... arbitrary, wildly unreliable, highly subjective, full of extremely ambiguous and unhelpful terminology; essentially a glorified Facebook quiz and about as useless? (I'm friends with waaaaay too many professional psychologists.)

Honestly, the phrasing comes off as more than a little insulting, and the later "social strategies" remark doesn't really clear things up. How are gameplay social strategies even a remotely gendered issue? The behaviors you spend a fortress of text categorizing women into are not unique the category of "Gameplayers of the female gender;" they aren't even really unique to the larger category of "Gameplayers," period. To be perfectly blunt, it makes the entire thing read like a bunch of vaguely condescending psuedo-academic nonsense rather than anything particularly analytical or of value for "self-reflection and occasionally self-discovery."
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:04 am

Reploid Productions wrote:
Kshrlmnt wrote:I tend to think of this as closer to Myers-Briggs

Sooo... arbitrary, wildly unreliable, highly subjective, full of extremely ambiguous and unhelpful terminology; essentially a glorified Facebook quiz and about as useless? (I'm friends with waaaaay too many professional psychologists.)

Honestly, the phrasing comes off as more than a little insulting, and the later "social strategies" remark doesn't really clear things up. How are gameplay social strategies even a remotely gendered issue? The behaviors you spend a fortress of text categorizing women into are not unique the category of "Gameplayers of the female gender;" they aren't even really unique to the larger category of "Gameplayers," period. To be perfectly blunt, it makes the entire thing read like a bunch of vaguely condescending psuedo-academic nonsense rather than anything particularly analytical or of value for "self-reflection and occasionally self-discovery."


Heh. Looking through that list and thinking about which one would apply to me, I'm kawaii :blush:

Or godmotherfather :twisted:
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Crazy girl
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Postby Crazy girl » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:41 pm

I could probably fit in three categories, depending on my mood and laziness. And caffeine levels.

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King Nephmir II
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Postby King Nephmir II » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:24 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:This is just as big a piece of drivel as the NS Generations piece of ages ago.

And here's why:

viewtopic.php?p=3404756#p3404756


There are two types of people, those who absolutely insist on classifying people by group, and those who utterly reject classifying people by group.

I'm firmly in the second category.

Nice. :p

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:26 pm

I made some vaguely similar musings back in the day, but the point wasn't for it to be exclusive (nor is this, I imagine.)
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KwaBantu
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Postby KwaBantu » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:15 am

This is very sexist neh... Who are you to categorise women according to your patriarchal lens? Ngamasimba la.

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Postby Zaolat » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:05 pm

KwaBantu wrote:This is very sexist neh... Who are you to categorise women according to your patriarchal lens? Ngamasimba la.


OP is a woman.
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Postby RiderSyl » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:08 pm

Zaolat wrote:
KwaBantu wrote:This is very sexist neh... Who are you to categorise women according to your patriarchal lens? Ngamasimba la.


OP is a woman.


Can confirm.
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Postby Guy » Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:11 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:This is just as big a piece of drivel as the NS Generations piece of ages ago.

And here's why:

viewtopic.php?p=3404756#p3404756

Sure, pigeonholing every single woman within a few categories is not useful in fully describing all individuals, and I don't think anyone makes that claim.

By utilising broad categories (behavioural patterns?) what this 'categorisation' does do is explore some of the ways in which gender connects with gameplay, and what women make of their different position in gameplay. (I think it's unquestionable that a woman's Gameplay experience is uniquely different - I think the recent conference established as much.) There aren't that many prominent women in Gameplay - and I think some of these categories do broadly (and maybe at times narrowly) fit. I wouldn't be surprised if some were written with particular players at mind.
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Postby Pixie Noir » Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:25 pm

Where's the 7 types of Men in Nationstates list? I would be happy to see those categories.

I'm a "woman in Nationstates" and I don't really feel comfortable with the attempt at taxonomy here. It's only the women playing this game that we expose to this kind of analysis; the women playing this game are as diverse a population as the men. What does this list accomplish? Does knowing that someone is an "Atalanta" or a "Boyd-Belle" really give you a better understanding of their personality? Or is it simply just painting the women of this game is these ridiculous broad strokes. If you want to know how a woman relates and interacts with gameplay just talk to her, listen to her.

Any trends you can find in women on NS are the same trends you'll find among the men; some of us are into R/D others are diplomats, some have big personalities, others are childish, etc. etc. This reductive work serves merely to excuse the attitude that women are simplistic and easily predictable in gameplay. The inclusion of a "Black Widow" is just over the line; especially when you consider that men are often the initiators and driving force of the NS romance/family dynamic. In my 8 years playing this game I've never met a woman that I could peg so simply with these categories. In fact I've found the women to be the more unique players. Women in NS are as complicated as Women out of NS and perpetuating that we can be confined in these pitiful categories is just going to be working against us in the long run.

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Postby The Blaatschapen » Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:25 pm

Guy wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:This is just as big a piece of drivel as the NS Generations piece of ages ago.

And here's why:

viewtopic.php?p=3404756#p3404756

Sure, pigeonholing every single woman within a few categories is not useful in fully describing all individuals, and I don't think anyone makes that claim.

By utilising broad categories (behavioural patterns?) what this 'categorisation' does do is explore some of the ways in which gender connects with gameplay, and what women make of their different position in gameplay. (I think it's unquestionable that a woman's Gameplay experience is uniquely different - I think the recent conference established as much.) There aren't that many prominent women in Gameplay - and I think some of these categories do broadly (and maybe at times narrowly) fit. I wouldn't be surprised if some were written with particular players at mind.


But why is it for women? I'm a man, and I can fit easily in two of these categories. The gender angle is quite unneccesary.
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Postby The Ik Ka Ek Akai » Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:38 pm

Bears Armed wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:This is just as big a piece of drivel as the NS Generations piece of ages ago.

Quite a few of the players who commented at the time, myself included, felt that the definitions given for our "generations" did fit quite well.


This is a psychological phenomenon by which sweeping generalizations are deemed "accurate" and "fitting" because our minds fill in the gaps. This is largely how stage psychics, mediums, and mind readers do their trick: sweeping generalization.

This is known as the Barnum Effect, named after the famous charlatan P.T. Barnum. Tell me, how well does this list apply to you?

You have a great need for other people to like and admire you.
You have a tendency to be critical of yourself.
You have a great deal of unused capacity which you have not turned to your advantage.
While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them.
Your sexual adjustment has presented problems for you.
Disciplined and self-controlled outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure inside.
At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing.
You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations.
You pride yourself as an independent thinker and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof.
You have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others.
At times you are extroverted, affable, sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, reserved.
Some of your aspirations tend to be pretty unrealistic.
Security is one of your major goals in life.

Psychologist Bertram Forer gave this very analysis to a significant body of students, and the average rating of accuracy on a scale of 0-5 was 4.26. When he gave them an actual review and analysis, and presented it against the vague and generic one seen above, around 60% of the students said that the generic one was more fitting to them than the personalized one.

What this is ultimately doing is categorizing based on broad, sweeping statements that, in retrospect, should be fairly clear. "Gameplay wise, there are two types of people: Those who do good as generals, and those who do good as diplomats." What happen to be the gameplay mechanics of Nationstates? War and diplomacy. Chances are you're going to be good at one or the other, and since they're near exact opposites, chances are also likely you're not going to be an expert at both.

It's the same reason we would never trust a self-diagnosis of disease, disorders, or conditions. Why we don't necessarily believe it when people on the internet claim to have Social Anxiety and list getting worried about a test as fitting the symptoms. Our mind likes to fill gaps, and it will if presented the opportunity. Vagueness appeals to us for this very reason. Thus, the Barnum effect is a timeless example of why brains don't work as well as we'd really prefer they did.
Last edited by The Ik Ka Ek Akai on Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Guy » Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:41 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Guy wrote:Sure, pigeonholing every single woman within a few categories is not useful in fully describing all individuals, and I don't think anyone makes that claim.

By utilising broad categories (behavioural patterns?) what this 'categorisation' does do is explore some of the ways in which gender connects with gameplay, and what women make of their different position in gameplay. (I think it's unquestionable that a woman's Gameplay experience is uniquely different - I think the recent conference established as much.) There aren't that many prominent women in Gameplay - and I think some of these categories do broadly (and maybe at times narrowly) fit. I wouldn't be surprised if some were written with particular players at mind.


But why is it for women? I'm a man, and I can fit easily in two of these categories. The gender angle is quite unneccesary.

I don't think it is at all.

Women's experience in NS (as in life) is markedly different to that of men's. It is perhaps especially so in NS, a male-dominated space of people mostly in their teens and twenties. There was a Women & NationStates Conference particularly to discuss these issues. Obviously they won't impact every person in a similar fashion, but I definitely think there is utility in discussing how gender interplays with playing this game.

You can disagree with the categories (I think there is too much emphasis on "The Divas", as the post itself recognises they are a very small minority, and even that I think overestimates its incidence etc), the desire to categorise (although I think it is of some utility), and so forth. But I think there is a good reason to discuss women in particular.
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