NATION

PASSWORD

What do you mean when you say "freedom" ?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Gringostan
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Jun 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

What do you mean when you say "freedom" ?

Postby Gringostan » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:49 pm

I've noticed then when people say a word, even if the meaning is gauge, they don't define it. In the West, the word most often used is "freedom", however, they rarely define it. Worse, what they may think as " freedom " might seem to *you* to be closer to the word "slavery".
An example people might use is the Nazi's extermination of the Jews. To a regular German who seemed to be doing better, it would indeed seem to be the best definition of the word " freedom ". But, if you were one of the Jews being exterminated, it would fit more closely to " genocide" and "enslavement".
A thing to consider is the question of who's point of view is represented as being the true point of view. Most Americans would not say that America is doing well right now, but most would say it is doing o.k . However, if you questioned most African-Americans and most people with disabilities, they would view America as a bigoted and discriminating country. In fact, they might point out its great for most Americans, but for them, it's a hard land to live in and a hard land to make money in.
So, what is *your* definition of the word " freedom" ( and no, you can't use a dictionary. Were trying to figure out what *you mean* when *you* use that term) ? What does "freedom" look like ? What political system comes the closest ( No, no system absolutely achieves it. That would be utopia, and I don't think we'll ever achieve that while were alive ) ? Who gets to define the word "freedom" ? The majority ? The minority? If you live in, say Britain, and the Muslims feel less "free" then you do, are they ( the Muslims) correct ? Or, if you feel differently then they, are **you** correct ? How do you, ultimately, decide ?
Share your thoughts with me, NSers. I'll look for your answers !!!

User avatar
The United Colonies of Earth
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9992
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The United Colonies of Earth » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:52 pm

The ability of myself to do as I please without negative consequences.
The United Colonies of Earth exists:
to bring about the settlement of all planets not yet inhabited by a sapient species within this Galaxy and Universe by the Human Race, or all members of the species Homo sapiens;
to ensure the observation and protection of the rights of all human beings;
to defend humankind from invasion, catastrophe, fraud and violence;
to represent the interests of humankind to the other governments of the Galaxy;
to facilitate the perpetuation of the unity of human civilization and infrastructure between otherwise self-governing colonies;
and to promote technological advancement and scientific discovery for the perpetuation and expansion of the unity and empowerment of all human beings.
E Stēllīs Lībertās

User avatar
Republic of the Cristo
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12261
Founded: Apr 16, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Republic of the Cristo » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:56 pm

Freedom is the ability to do as you please, what ever you please. In my opinion, this is set in stone, thus no one can change that fact. The only government ( I believe ) that ensures freedom would be Black-flag Mad Max style anarchism. Freedom, in all but a few primitive and tribal areas of the world, does not exist. Too often, especially we westerners, confuse the word freedom for the word permission. No government which comes to mind gives or protects freedoms, rather, it permits people to do such and such.

On the whole though, I find that freedom is vastly overrated, and in large quantities is much like a drug; inevitably a bad and cancerous thing.
Orthodox Christian, Nationalist, Reactionary, Stoic


(2 Kings 2:23-25): you won't be dissappointed

User avatar
A Humanist Science
Diplomat
 
Posts: 688
Founded: Mar 24, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby A Humanist Science » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:59 pm

"freedom" is the privilege of being inextricably condemned to the responsibility for the product of one's actions.
Last edited by A Humanist Science on Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
The Alexanderians
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12581
Founded: Oct 03, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby The Alexanderians » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:01 pm

Nothing left to lose
Galloism wrote:Or we can go with feminism doesn't exist. We all imagined it. Collectively.
You can't fight the friction
Women belong in the kitchen
Men belong in the kitchen
Everyone belongs in the kitchen
Kitchen has food
I have brought dishonor to my gaming clan
Achesia wrote:Threads like this is why I need to stop coming to NSG....

Marethian Lupanar of Teladre wrote:A bright and cheerful mountain village of chapel-goers~

The Archregimancy wrote:
Hagia Sophia is best church.

Major-Tom wrote:Why am I full of apathy?

I'm just here to be the peanut gallery
уσυ нανєи'т gσт тнє fυℓℓ єffє¢т

User avatar
Nocturnalis
Diplomat
 
Posts: 939
Founded: Mar 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Nocturnalis » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:05 pm

Self-reliance.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10904
Founded: May 20, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby The Romulan Republic » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:08 pm

The United Colonies of Earth wrote:The ability of myself to do as I please without negative consequences.


I think that's what a lot of people mean when they say "freedom", but that's not what freedom is.

For one person's freedom to be secure, everyone's freedom must be secure, or the oppression of others can be turned on you as the political winds shift. Unfortunately, and ironically, that means that no one can have absolutely unlimited freedom to do as they please without consequences.

For example, one has the freedom to say that Hitler was a great guy (at least in the US). And the government cannot arrest you, fine you, jail you, etc. for saying that.

But that doesn't mean their will be no consequences. Because others have the right to shun you, fire you, mock you, etc. That's their freedom of choice, freedom of expression, and freedom of association.

Freedom is the ability to make choices for oneself, so long as those choices do not infringe on anyone's freedom. To put it very simply.
Last edited by The Romulan Republic on Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - President Abraham Lincoln.

User avatar
The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11859
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:09 pm

Self-ownership, and freedom from arbitrarily imposed notions of duty or restraint.
Last edited by The Liberated Territories on Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Left Wing Market Anarchism

Yes, I am back(ish)

User avatar
Godular
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 13087
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:09 pm

The ability to move along an axis.
Now the moderation team really IS Godmoding.
Step 1: One-Stop Rules Shop. Step 2: ctrl+f. Step 3: Type in what you saw in modbox. Step 4: Don't do it again.
New to F7? Click here!


User avatar
The United Colonies of Earth
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9992
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The United Colonies of Earth » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:21 pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
The United Colonies of Earth wrote:The ability of myself to do as I please without negative consequences.


I think that's what a lot of people mean when they say "freedom", but that's not what freedom is.

For one person's freedom to be secure, everyone's freedom must be secure, or the oppression of others can be turned on you as the political winds shift. Unfortunately, and ironically, that means that no one can have absolutely unlimited freedom to do as they please without consequences.

For example, one has the freedom to say that Hitler was a great guy (at least in the US). And the government cannot arrest you, fine you, jail you, etc. for saying that.

But that doesn't mean their will be no consequences. Because others have the right to shun you, fire you, mock you, etc. That's their freedom of choice, freedom of expression, and freedom of association.

Freedom is the ability to make choices for oneself, so long as those choices do not infringe on anyone's freedom. To put it very simply.

That is what happens when the human race isn't effectively extinct, yes. Freedom is in practice a compromise to prevent infringement. In dreams, it is ignorant of infringements.
The United Colonies of Earth exists:
to bring about the settlement of all planets not yet inhabited by a sapient species within this Galaxy and Universe by the Human Race, or all members of the species Homo sapiens;
to ensure the observation and protection of the rights of all human beings;
to defend humankind from invasion, catastrophe, fraud and violence;
to represent the interests of humankind to the other governments of the Galaxy;
to facilitate the perpetuation of the unity of human civilization and infrastructure between otherwise self-governing colonies;
and to promote technological advancement and scientific discovery for the perpetuation and expansion of the unity and empowerment of all human beings.
E Stēllīs Lībertās

User avatar
The United Colonies of Earth
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9992
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The United Colonies of Earth » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:22 pm

Godular wrote:The ability to move along an axis.

Silly rabbit, this isn't mechanics. :p
The United Colonies of Earth exists:
to bring about the settlement of all planets not yet inhabited by a sapient species within this Galaxy and Universe by the Human Race, or all members of the species Homo sapiens;
to ensure the observation and protection of the rights of all human beings;
to defend humankind from invasion, catastrophe, fraud and violence;
to represent the interests of humankind to the other governments of the Galaxy;
to facilitate the perpetuation of the unity of human civilization and infrastructure between otherwise self-governing colonies;
and to promote technological advancement and scientific discovery for the perpetuation and expansion of the unity and empowerment of all human beings.
E Stēllīs Lībertās

User avatar
Gringostan
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Jun 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Gringostan » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:49 pm

The United Colonies of Earth wrote:
Godular wrote:The ability to move along an axis.

Silly rabbit, this isn't mechanics. :p


How would you respond to a Muslim that said " The misunderstanding of our religion of peace is atrocious. Everywhere in the Umma, I hear Muslims afraid to walk the streets because some Westerner will think were part of ISIS . Where is the much vaunted value for freedom of religion ? What protection against discrimination ? My Muslim friends in the Umma are afraid of crazed Westerners ?, Don't we get freedom as well ?"

User avatar
Unified Heartless States
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1024
Founded: Aug 11, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Unified Heartless States » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:02 pm

Gringostan wrote:I've noticed then when people say a word, even if the meaning is gauge, they don't define it. In the West, the word most often used is "freedom", however, they rarely define it. Worse, what they may think as " freedom " might seem to *you* to be closer to the word "slavery".
An example people might use is the Nazi's extermination of the Jews. To a regular German who seemed to be doing better, it would indeed seem to be the best definition of the word " freedom ". But, if you were one of the Jews being exterminated, it would fit more closely to " genocide" and "enslavement".
A thing to consider is the question of who's point of view is represented as being the true point of view. Most Americans would not say that America is doing well right now, but most would say it is doing o.k . However, if you questioned most African-Americans and most people with disabilities, they would view America as a bigoted and discriminating country. In fact, they might point out its great for most Americans, but for them, it's a hard land to live in and a hard land to make money in.
So, what is *your* definition of the word " freedom" ( and no, you can't use a dictionary. Were trying to figure out what *you mean* when *you* use that term) ? What does "freedom" look like ? What political system comes the closest ( No, no system absolutely achieves it. That would be utopia, and I don't think we'll ever achieve that while were alive ) ? Who gets to define the word "freedom" ? The majority ? The minority? If you live in, say Britain, and the Muslims feel less "free" then you do, are they ( the Muslims) correct ? Or, if you feel differently then they, are **you** correct ? How do you, ultimately, decide ?
Share your thoughts with me, NSers. I'll look for your answers !!!
Perception is irrelevant, if we cannot use objective terms then we might as well not debate. Honestly now, ask yourself, how can two people have different definitions for the same word and still be both correct?

User avatar
Quokkastan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1913
Founded: Dec 21, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Quokkastan » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:04 pm

Looks like someone has stumbled across the distinction between positive and negative freedoms, but hasn't quite thought it out.

Freedom is not so loosely defined as you suggest, OP. It can be used in multiple contexts, and sometimes freedom comes at the cost of other freedoms (the right to own slaves vs. the right to not be a slave), but that doesn't mean that the word is arbitrary.
Give us this day our daily thread.
And forgive us our flames, as we forgive those who flame against us.
And lead us not into trolling, but deliver us from spambots.
For thine is the website, and the novels, and the glory. Forever and ever.
In Violent's name we pray. Submit.

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:06 pm

Freedom of choice is the main thing.

User avatar
Republic of Canador
Minister
 
Posts: 2467
Founded: Mar 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Republic of Canador » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:08 pm

Bald eagles ripping shit to shreds.
Ideologically a Voluntaryist Anarcho Capitalist
Anti Globalist Anti Nationalist Anti Socialist

MUH ROADS

Use male or female pronouns. I don't give a shit.
It's Kanadorika, not Canador

THE PARTY SEES ALL, KNOWS ALL, DESTROYS ALL
What happens when a paranoid, murderous psychopath rules over a nation with absolute power and kills anyone seen as "corrupted"? Kanadorika
What the critics are saying about Kanadorika:
Lichian wrote:Don't go. Stay at home. If forced to go, pray that you don't mess up. Pray that the government doesn't see you. And pray that you don't just end up getting shot for fun.

User avatar
Lanoraie
Envoy
 
Posts: 276
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Lanoraie » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:09 pm

The ability to be whoever you want to be and to say whatever you want to say and to believe whatever you want to believe without legal repercussions.

And to do whatever you want to do, so long as it's not harming others (though that is subjective).

^^^ That's what I consider reasonable freedom; freedom that can and, in my opinion, should be the goal of every nation and persons.

Ultimate freedom, however, would be all of those, including harming others and no social repercussions. It's largely unobtainable. Anarchy is another word for it.

User avatar
A Humanist Science
Diplomat
 
Posts: 688
Founded: Mar 24, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby A Humanist Science » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:23 pm

Lanoraie wrote:Ultimate freedom, however, would be all of those, including harming others and no social repercussions. It's largely unobtainable. Anarchy is another word for it.


Even as wholly insufferable as they are, all anarchists I've ever know would take great exception to the claim that "freedom" includes harming others with no repercussion.

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:29 pm

A measure of the ability of individuals in a society to act according to their wants and desires. As freedom is a societal quality and not an individual one (usually), this necessitates that the freedom of one individual does not impinge on the freedom of another.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Godular
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 13087
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:31 pm

The United Colonies of Earth wrote:
Godular wrote:The ability to move along an axis.

Silly rabbit, this isn't mechanics. :p


DON'T TRAMPLE UPON MY DEGREES OF FREEDOM, FIEND!!!

I kinda hoped it would take a little longer for somebody to get the joke... :D
Last edited by Godular on Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Now the moderation team really IS Godmoding.
Step 1: One-Stop Rules Shop. Step 2: ctrl+f. Step 3: Type in what you saw in modbox. Step 4: Don't do it again.
New to F7? Click here!


User avatar
Klesk
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Apr 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Klesk » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:32 pm

Freedom for me is the choice to do what I want and choose the way I live my life, all while respecting other people's rights and personal freedom. I live by the motto "Your rights end where my rights begin and vice versa".

User avatar
The United Colonies of Earth
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9992
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The United Colonies of Earth » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:33 pm

Gringostan wrote:
The United Colonies of Earth wrote:Silly rabbit, this isn't mechanics. :p


How would you respond to a Muslim that said " The misunderstanding of our religion of peace is atrocious. Everywhere in the Umma, I hear Muslims afraid to walk the streets because some Westerner will think were part of ISIS . Where is the much vaunted value for freedom of religion ? What protection against discrimination ? My Muslim friends in the Umma are afraid of crazed Westerners ?, Don't we get freedom as well ?"

Well, that's sad. I do think freedom is the ability to act as one pleases without negative consequences. But I extend it now to all people. And as such, we must introduce the inability to act to infringe others' freedom. By doing this, absolute freedom is restricted- wherein acting as one pleases will violate the ability of others to do the same.
If the activities of some people here in the West are infringing on Muslims' freedom, I will support state measures to end those activities. Because yes, all people do deserve some freedom at some point in their lives.
A Humanist Science wrote:
Lanoraie wrote:Ultimate freedom, however, would be all of those, including harming others and no social repercussions. It's largely unobtainable. Anarchy is another word for it.

Even as wholly insufferable as they are, all anarchists I've ever know would take great exception to the claim that "freedom" includes harming others with no repercussion.

They're too socially minded.
They need to think more like dictators, more selfishly.
Then they will know that freedom- positive freedom at least, idk- includes the freedom to beat the living hell out of someone who pisses you off.
And then they'll realize that that sort of freedom can't and won't exist. Unless one last human remained in the universe, of course.
The United Colonies of Earth exists:
to bring about the settlement of all planets not yet inhabited by a sapient species within this Galaxy and Universe by the Human Race, or all members of the species Homo sapiens;
to ensure the observation and protection of the rights of all human beings;
to defend humankind from invasion, catastrophe, fraud and violence;
to represent the interests of humankind to the other governments of the Galaxy;
to facilitate the perpetuation of the unity of human civilization and infrastructure between otherwise self-governing colonies;
and to promote technological advancement and scientific discovery for the perpetuation and expansion of the unity and empowerment of all human beings.
E Stēllīs Lībertās

User avatar
Cannot think of a name
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45100
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Cannot think of a name » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:38 pm

"French"
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

User avatar
Gringostan
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Jun 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Gringostan » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:41 pm

Quokkastan wrote:Looks like someone has stumbled across the distinction between positive and negative freedoms, but hasn't quite thought it out.

Freedom is not so loosely defined as you suggest, OP. It can be used in multiple contexts, and sometimes freedom comes at the cost of other freedoms (the right to own slaves vs. the right to not be a slave), but that doesn't mean that the word is arbitrary.



How I view it, it revolves around universal rights. Do you wish to be a slave ? If your answer is "No", then don't enslave others. Whatever you want for yourself, by extension, you must offer to others. Living in the United States, the Constitution is written giving broad, universal rights. Those rights can not be taken from you unless you make the move to first violate the rights of others. This came from the Judeo-Christian tradition that formed the bedrock of our nation.

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17217
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Trotskylvania » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:45 pm

The continual negotiation of the frontier of our subjugation.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in Posadism


"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ancientania, Cyptopir, Deblar, Eahland, Enormous Gentiles, Europa Undivided, Page, Socialist Lop, The Jamesian Republic, Tlaceceyaya, Valrifall

Advertisement

Remove ads