by Gringostan » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:49 pm
by The United Colonies of Earth » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:52 pm
by Republic of the Cristo » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:56 pm
by A Humanist Science » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:59 pm
by The Alexanderians » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:01 pm
Galloism wrote:Or we can go with feminism doesn't exist. We all imagined it. Collectively.
by The Romulan Republic » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:08 pm
The United Colonies of Earth wrote:The ability of myself to do as I please without negative consequences.
by The Liberated Territories » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:09 pm
by Godular » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:09 pm
by The United Colonies of Earth » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:21 pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:The United Colonies of Earth wrote:The ability of myself to do as I please without negative consequences.
I think that's what a lot of people mean when they say "freedom", but that's not what freedom is.
For one person's freedom to be secure, everyone's freedom must be secure, or the oppression of others can be turned on you as the political winds shift. Unfortunately, and ironically, that means that no one can have absolutely unlimited freedom to do as they please without consequences.
For example, one has the freedom to say that Hitler was a great guy (at least in the US). And the government cannot arrest you, fine you, jail you, etc. for saying that.
But that doesn't mean their will be no consequences. Because others have the right to shun you, fire you, mock you, etc. That's their freedom of choice, freedom of expression, and freedom of association.
Freedom is the ability to make choices for oneself, so long as those choices do not infringe on anyone's freedom. To put it very simply.
by The United Colonies of Earth » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:22 pm
Godular wrote:The ability to move along an axis.
by Gringostan » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:49 pm
by Unified Heartless States » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:02 pm
Perception is irrelevant, if we cannot use objective terms then we might as well not debate. Honestly now, ask yourself, how can two people have different definitions for the same word and still be both correct?Gringostan wrote:I've noticed then when people say a word, even if the meaning is gauge, they don't define it. In the West, the word most often used is "freedom", however, they rarely define it. Worse, what they may think as " freedom " might seem to *you* to be closer to the word "slavery".
An example people might use is the Nazi's extermination of the Jews. To a regular German who seemed to be doing better, it would indeed seem to be the best definition of the word " freedom ". But, if you were one of the Jews being exterminated, it would fit more closely to " genocide" and "enslavement".
A thing to consider is the question of who's point of view is represented as being the true point of view. Most Americans would not say that America is doing well right now, but most would say it is doing o.k . However, if you questioned most African-Americans and most people with disabilities, they would view America as a bigoted and discriminating country. In fact, they might point out its great for most Americans, but for them, it's a hard land to live in and a hard land to make money in.
So, what is *your* definition of the word " freedom" ( and no, you can't use a dictionary. Were trying to figure out what *you mean* when *you* use that term) ? What does "freedom" look like ? What political system comes the closest ( No, no system absolutely achieves it. That would be utopia, and I don't think we'll ever achieve that while were alive ) ? Who gets to define the word "freedom" ? The majority ? The minority? If you live in, say Britain, and the Muslims feel less "free" then you do, are they ( the Muslims) correct ? Or, if you feel differently then they, are **you** correct ? How do you, ultimately, decide ?
Share your thoughts with me, NSers. I'll look for your answers !!!
by Quokkastan » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:04 pm
by Republic of Canador » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:08 pm
Lichian wrote:Don't go. Stay at home. If forced to go, pray that you don't mess up. Pray that the government doesn't see you. And pray that you don't just end up getting shot for fun.
by Lanoraie » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:09 pm
by A Humanist Science » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:23 pm
Lanoraie wrote:Ultimate freedom, however, would be all of those, including harming others and no social repercussions. It's largely unobtainable. Anarchy is another word for it.
by Conserative Morality » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:29 pm
by Godular » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:31 pm
by Klesk » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:32 pm
by The United Colonies of Earth » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:33 pm
Gringostan wrote:The United Colonies of Earth wrote:Silly rabbit, this isn't mechanics.
How would you respond to a Muslim that said " The misunderstanding of our religion of peace is atrocious. Everywhere in the Umma, I hear Muslims afraid to walk the streets because some Westerner will think were part of ISIS . Where is the much vaunted value for freedom of religion ? What protection against discrimination ? My Muslim friends in the Umma are afraid of crazed Westerners ?, Don't we get freedom as well ?"
A Humanist Science wrote:Lanoraie wrote:Ultimate freedom, however, would be all of those, including harming others and no social repercussions. It's largely unobtainable. Anarchy is another word for it.
Even as wholly insufferable as they are, all anarchists I've ever know would take great exception to the claim that "freedom" includes harming others with no repercussion.
by Cannot think of a name » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:38 pm
by Gringostan » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:41 pm
Quokkastan wrote:Looks like someone has stumbled across the distinction between positive and negative freedoms, but hasn't quite thought it out.
Freedom is not so loosely defined as you suggest, OP. It can be used in multiple contexts, and sometimes freedom comes at the cost of other freedoms (the right to own slaves vs. the right to not be a slave), but that doesn't mean that the word is arbitrary.
by Trotskylvania » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:45 pm
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga
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