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[SUBMITTED] Hearsay Heresy

A place to spoil daily issues for those who haven't had them yet, snigger at typos, and discuss ideas for new ones.
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Losthaven
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[SUBMITTED] Hearsay Heresy

Postby Losthaven » Tue May 24, 2016 1:18 pm

Name: Hearsay Heresy

Description: In a recent high profile trial in @@CAPITAL@@, notorious mobster Max "the Berry Man" Capone was accused of murder, racketeering, grand theft, and jaywalking. The trial ended in acquittal on all counts after several witnesses who had given detailed and damning out-of-court statements to police failed to come to court. The prosecutor's office has now come to you demanding that @@NAME@@ change it's laws regarding the use of out-of-court statements.

Validity: All nations with criminal trials.

Options:


[option]"What a miscarriage of justice," shouts disgruntled prosecutor @@RANDOMNAME@@, as he flings a huge stack of police reports on your desk, "Look at all of these great statements made by a dozen witnesses, but now that jerk Max goes free just because they didn't personally show up to court. Do you know how hard it is to wrangle up a dozen witnesses for trial? Like herding cats! If the police had been able to testify to what these witnesses told them, that trial would have ended in a guilty verdict after 5 minutes! It's as simple as this: if a witness makes a report to a cop, that cop should be able to testify to what was said. I guarantee we'd have more scumbag criminals in the pokey, and we'd spend less money doing it."

[effect]old folks reminisce about the last time someone was acquitted of a crime

[stats]law and order+, government funding-, civil rights--


[option]"You can't be serious!" cries famous defense lawyer @@RANDOMNAME@@, who defended Max Capone, "don't you realize we have this rule against out-of-court statements for a reason? A person can only have a fair trial if they get to confront their accuser face to face in open court. Sometimes the reason witnesses don't show up to trial is that they know they were lying to police all along! Allowing in all of these out-of-court statements will mean more innocent people get convicted. Sure, requiring witnesses to show up for trial may mean that sometimes a guilty person will go free; ahem, not my client of course, but some actually guilty person. But isn't it better if a thousand guilty people go free than to wrongfully convict even a single person?!"

[effect]obviously guilty people are acquitted when key witnesses don't show up for trial

[stats]law and order-, civil rights++, safety-


[option]"All of this is too complicated," interrupts @@RANDOMNAME@@, a recently appointed minister from a very rural district, "this right here is why people are so darn sick of all these courts and legal shenanigans. Seems like any way you slice it the only options are to spend a bunch of money on a stupid system and watch as criminals go free. Well not if I have anything to say about it! I propose a third way: lets bring back trial by ordeal! Let the criminally accused wrestle with a @@ANIMAL@@ and if they win they didn't do it and get to go free. If they lose, we lock up whatever remains. It's a fool proof system that our ancestors used for a thousand years, and I'll tell ya, they didn't waste a pretty penny on it!"

[effect]the strong are acquitted and the weak are trampled in trial by @@ANIMAL@@

[stats]animal related death+, extremism++, law and order--, civil rights--, government spending--, tax--


Name: Hearsay Heresy

Description: In a recent high profile trial in @@CAPITAL@@, notorious mobster Max "the Berry Man" Capone was accused of murder, racketeering, petty theft, and jaywalking. The trial ended in acquittal on all counts after several of the prosecutor's witnesses, who had given detailed and damning out-of-court statements to police, failed to come to trial. The prosecutor's office has now come to you demanding that @@NAME@@ change it's laws regarding the use of out-of-court statements.

Validity: All nations with criminal trials.

Options:


[option]"What a miscarriage of justice," shouts disgruntled prosecutor @@RANDOMNAME@@, as he flings a huge stack of police reports on your desk, "Look at all of these great statements made by a dozen witnesses! If the police were able to just say what other people told them, that trial would have ended in a guilty verdict after 5 minutes. Instead that rat Max is a free man! If someone says something to a cop and then they don't show up to trial, the cop should be able to just say what they were told. The court will be able to judge what's reliable and what isn't. It's as simple as that. As an added bonus, we'd save a ton of money on trial time and witness fees, in addition to all the justice."

[effect]it's been months since anyone in @@NAME@@ was acquitted of a crime

[stats]law and order+, government funding-, civil rights --


[option]"You can't be serious!" cries famous defense lawyer @@RANDOMNAME@@, who defended Max Capone, "don't you realize we have this rule against out-of-court statements for a reason? A person can only have a fair trial if they get to confront their accuser face to face and challenge what they are saying! Sometimes the reason people don't show up to trial is that they know they were lying to police all along! By allowing in all of these out-of-court statements through police, you're basically letting a bunch of unreliable evidence come in to the trial. It will seriously erode the protections currently in place for the accused! Sure, keeping the rule against out-of-court statements means that we'll have some guilty people go free; ahem, not my client of course, but some actually guilty people. But isn't it worth it if it means we have a fairer system in general? I think so."

[effect]people are routinely acquitted of crimes when key witnesses fail to show up for trial

[stats]law and order-, civil rights++, safety-


[option]"You know what this sounds like to me," says Max Capone's 'associate' @@RANDOMNAME@@, "It sounds like the prosecutor is just sore that they didn't get their ducks in a row before trial. If they had planned their case better, they could have made sure those witnesses were at trial. They want you to bail them out for being lazy! Why would you want to do that!! Not only should these out-of-court statements be excluded, but any time the prosecutors are too lazy to get their witnesses to court people should be entitled to an immediate acquittal, regardless of what the other evidence is! That's the best way to ensure a full and fair trial."

[effect]despite overwhelming evidence of guilt and thousands of police man hours, criminal cases are thrown out if even a single witness doesn't show up for trial

[stats]law and order--, safety--, extremism+, civil rights++,


[option]"That's obviously too extreme," says @@RANDOMNAME@@ from 'Split the Baby' think tank as he sips a venti caramel mocha cappuccino latte, "but so would be allowing all out-of-court statements into evidence. Instead, out-of-court statements should generally be excluded but should come in for specific reasons like if there's a child witness or if the witness is too scared to testify or would have to miss an important appointment. I'm sure there's other exceptions that might take some time for the law makers and the courts to iron out. And of course, the issue would be heavily litigated. But isn't it worth a bit more work if we have a more balanced system?"

[effect]long, arduous hearings are held whenever a witness doesn't want to come to court

[stats]tax+, government spending+, cheerfulness-, law and order+, civil rights+


[option]"All of this is too complicated," shouts @@RANDOMNAME@@ as he grinds the mud from his boots into your office rug, "this right here is why people are so damn sick of all these courts and legal shenanigans. Seems like any way you slice it the only options are to spend a bunch of money on a stupid system and watch as criminals go free. Well not if I have anything to say about it! I propose a third way: lets bring back trial by ordeal! Let the criminally accused wrestle a @@ANIMAL@@ and if they win they didn't do it and get to go free. If they lose, we lock up whatever remains. It's a fool proof system that our ancestors used for a thousand years! It will save loads of money and prevent you from getting a headache too!"

[effect]the strong are acquitted and the weak are trampled in trial by @@ANIMAL@@

[stats]animal related death+, extremism++, law and order--, civil rights--, government spending--, tax--


Looking for help! This is my first attempt to draft an issue so be kind if I made obvious mistakes.
Last edited by Losthaven on Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:19 am, edited 17 times in total.
Once a great nation, a true superpower; now just watching the world go by

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Losthaven
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Founded: Dec 31, 2014
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Postby Losthaven » Tue May 24, 2016 1:37 pm

I noticed a bunch of initial spelling and formatting mistakes (probably not all of them) and corrected.
Once a great nation, a true superpower; now just watching the world go by

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Gnejs
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Posts: 3317
Founded: May 11, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Gnejs » Wed May 25, 2016 12:26 am

I think this looks really nice :)

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Posts: 23651
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Wed May 25, 2016 7:28 am

I agree, really nice quality.

My first comment, though, would be to ask if five options are necessary, especially when they're long options?

I tend towards garrulousness myself, but I wonder if (for the sake of accessibility) the issue might be to able to address the same core dilemma and story, while not needing to cover every possible choice?
editors like linguistic ambiguity more than most people

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Losthaven
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Founded: Dec 31, 2014
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Postby Losthaven » Wed May 25, 2016 8:38 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:I agree, really nice quality.

My first comment, though, would be to ask if five options are necessary, especially when they're long options?

I tend towards garrulousness myself, but I wonder if (for the sake of accessibility) the issue might be to able to address the same core dilemma and story, while not needing to cover every possible choice?

I'll take a stab at slimming it down a bit. It could probably be simplified to just the first two options. Though I really like option 5 :p
Once a great nation, a true superpower; now just watching the world go by

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Losthaven
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Posts: 393
Founded: Dec 31, 2014
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Postby Losthaven » Wed May 25, 2016 11:30 am

Okay I updated and streamlined a bit, and I removed a couple options.
Once a great nation, a true superpower; now just watching the world go by

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Posts: 23651
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Thu May 26, 2016 2:52 am

Looks absolutely spot on to me, and ready to submit.

However, I've had a tendency to submit issues too quickly myself, so don't listen to me when I say that. Probably best to leave it in GI for a week or two to see if anyone else can offer refinements.
editors like linguistic ambiguity more than most people

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Gnejs
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Posts: 3317
Founded: May 11, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Gnejs » Thu May 26, 2016 3:09 am

I agree, the new version looks awesome.

However:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:However, I've had a tendency to submit issues too quickly myself, so don't listen to me when I say that. Probably best to leave it in GI for a week or two to see if anyone else can offer refinements.

Good advice, right there. Let it sit for a little while and give others some time to look it over. It's entirely possible you won't get anything worthwhile, but then again maybe you will.

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Sanders Voters
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Founded: May 14, 2016
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Postby Sanders Voters » Fri May 27, 2016 5:17 am

Looks excellent. I personally really like the dumped options, particularly the third, but that's mostly because it's the option I'd choose.

I use the spirit of the statistics, not the letter, and completely disregard them for population. I also assume nations are first-world unless otherwise stated, which means nations with poor economic stats in-game will have higher ones IC.

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Losthaven
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Founded: Dec 31, 2014
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Postby Losthaven » Tue May 31, 2016 10:55 am

Pre-submission bump!
Once a great nation, a true superpower; now just watching the world go by

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Losthaven
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Founded: Dec 31, 2014
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Postby Losthaven » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:20 am

I submitted this last week. Should I have gotten some kind of TG confirming that it was submitted?
Once a great nation, a true superpower; now just watching the world go by

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Gnejs
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Posts: 3317
Founded: May 11, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Gnejs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:26 am

Nah, nothing like that. Hereby confirming that it's submission was successful and ended up in the right place.


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