Pick-up Artists and Feminism

[Aparatix]

Pick-up artists seem to be a new trend in the digital age, and yes, we're discussing it.

The seduction community, also known as the pick-up artist, PUA, or pickup community, is a movement of men whose goal is seduction and sexual success with/access to women.

The rise of "seduction science", "game", or "studied charisma", as it is often called, has been attributed to the "chaotic" modern dating scene reportedly as a result of the increased empowerment and equality of women in western society and changes to traditional gender roles combined with the influence of distinct biological imperatives in men and women. Commentators in the media have described "game" as sexist or misogynistic, acknowledging that the techniques espoused do sometimes succeed in attracting women. Academic researchers have also studied seduction techniques and hypothesize a basis in evolutionary psychology.

And, there has been some very harsh criticism on the matter.

This is from wikipedia

misogynist for his views on women and sex by the Southern Poverty Law Center,[56] though writers at Reason and National Review mocked his inclusion.[57][58]

Feminist BDSM writer and activist Clarisse Thorn, author of Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser: Long Interviews with Hideous Men, criticizes the PUA community as frequently "absurd and sexist," "pushy and problematic" and encouraging adversarial gender roles. However, she also argues that PUA tactics are worth understanding because they are not unique to the PUA community, but instead represent society-wide beliefs and patterns and strategies of human sexual behaviour.[47] The UCLA Center for the Study of Women argues that PUA culture is misogynist, and exists on a continuum of sexist behaviours and attitudes that includes rape and murder.[59]

Professional dating coach, radio personality and self help book author Alan Roger Currie has frequently criticized the seduction community and many of the misleading and manipulative tactics espoused by many of the more popular pickup artists. Currie is specifically critical of men giving women the misleading impression that they are interested in engaging in a long-term, emotionally profound, monogamous romantic relationship when those men know in reality that they are really seeking to engage in some form of short-term, non-monogamous, casual sex with these same women.[60]

After 48-year-old systems analyst George Sodini killed three women and himself in the 2009 Collier Township shooting, media asked whether he had been influenced by his involvement in the PUA community.[61]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction ... kup_artist

So the question is this, NSG. Are Pick-up artists misogynistic pigs and should we discourage the practice as a society? Or are Pick-up artists to be indulged and applauded for recognizing a woman's needs and giving her what she wants?

Are Pick-up artists schemey and manipulative? Or are they simply socially atuned people?

I for one believe the term to do the practice a disservice, and I would very much prefer that men understand psychology and social engineering and play to it, rather than being awkward and out of the loop. I think there is a definite divide between assholes and charmers within the community, as you can see techniques and mindsets vary greatly amongst industry insiders. Not all Pick-up artists are created equal, and I think the community would do a lot better to call it seduction rather than pick-up.

Here is an example of a typical article giving advice.

http://www.girlschase.com/content/law-least-effort

Does it work? https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... eally-work

Make with that what you will. I will not take a hard stance on this as sociology is not exactly a scientific topic, but I'm sure there's something to it.

Thoughts?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Updated View Point:

So after a whopping 24 hours of researching and prying into the depths of what is commonly referred to as the PUA community, I've formed a new opinion on it. The PUA community, in its current form, is incredibly toxic and teaches mindsets that are neither helpful or desirable. However, I don't disagree with the idea behind teaching men how to play "the game." Just that the current trend throughout the community doesn't necessarily do that. PUA is like the self-help industry, the vast majority of the advice is sleazy bullshit chalked together by someone who helps himself to your income by giving advice on what he can't do himself. However, as there are self-help books that give genuinely helpful advice from genuinely successful people, there is some seduction advice that is genuine, helpful, and still respectful of women. If seduction is practiced properly and the teachings are helpful, then I think it is a positive thing for both men and women. I don't think there are any downsides to having a populous that is good at talking to women, on the contrary, I think it can only act as a social benefit. However, most PUA sites don't do that.

I believe that this guy is the exception to the rule.

http://www.girlschase.com/content/do-yo ... or-seducer

http://www.girlschase.com/about-me-chase-amante

http://www.girlschase.com/content/how-g ... y-hopeless

I believe this guy is the rule.

http://www.rooshv.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosh_V

TL;DR

The concept of teaching seduction is fine, but the majority of the PUA community gives seduction a bad name and don't really know what they're doing. Some advice, however, is both helpful and respectful towards women.

[Ashmoria]

they are the interpersonal equivalent to those men who sell you a system to make a fortune on the stock market.

[Bogdanov Vishniac]

the influence of distinct biological imperatives in men and women.

Good luck proving that.

Anyway, as for the 'movement' all I can really say is that P.T. Barnum was right.

[Zaldakki]

They have too many ads, linking you to sites with a video that I suspect is neverending. I don't know if they're actually neverending, but they seem neverending because they go on for so long and don't show you a time like normal videos, so I just X out.

[San Marlindo]

This reminds me of a thread on Reddit. Something about the Matrix and red pills.

[Shaggy Dog Story]

I suppose they operate on the theory that if you blindly throw darts you'll hit a bullseye eventually.

[Aparatix]

I suppose they operate on the theory that if you blindly throw darts you'll hit a bullseye eventually.

It's not like a lot of the stuff is all that 'out there'. Some of the stuff is pretty intuitive, and many of it has been proven in the social sciences. Things like moving fast and forcing other people to invest in you really works. By no means am I suggesting the industry is fool proof, and there are definitely a lot of scam artists out there. But many leaders in the industry are irrefutably good at what they do, and following their advice would definately improve a guy's success rate with women.

The question of this thread was less about if the stuff works, and more about how it is or should be considered by other people. Mysgoynstic? Sexist? Etc.

[Esternial]

Dunno, but if you treat women as some slab of meat you have to "pick up" you're clearly a massive asshat.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's pretty much Cosmo Magazine for guys. Yes, it's sexist in some cases, accurate in others.
More interesting to me is that society and the media vilify the men who do this, and yet, cosmo magazine exists. An entire industry of people pandering to women with similar viewpoints and such exists.

The sexism is fairly droll in a lot of cases and there's more important shit to be getting on with, with perhaps the exception of the unified TRP-radical MGTOW philosophy, which presents a cohesive ideology explaining society in sexist terms that dehumanize women to the extreme.

[Shaggy Dog Story]

I suppose they operate on the theory that if you blindly throw darts you'll hit a bullseye eventually.

It's not like a lot of the stuff is all that 'out there'. Some of the stuff is pretty intuitive, and many of it has been proven in the social sciences. Things like moving fast and forcing other people to invest in you really works. By no means am I suggesting the industry is fool proof, and there are definitely a lot of scam artists out there. But many leaders in the industry are irrefutably good at what they do, and following their advice would definately improve a guy's success rate with women.

The question of this thread was less about if the stuff works, and more about how it is or should be considered by other people. Mysgoynstic? Sexist? Etc.

It depends on what you mean by works. Many times relationships spring from the most random chances.

For example I was in a restaurant one night with some friends and they had just hired a new chef who was making the rounds chatting with patrons.

I noticed she had a tattoo very similar to mine. We started talking about it. Just a simple chat about tattoos and what we have and what we want. Nothing planned or attempted to pick up a random woman at her job. Just a compliment on her ink and it led to a conversation, no plan or game or trying to pick her up. Friendly chat. That was all it was.

We're getting married at the end of the year.

[Dakini]

acknowledging that the techniques espoused do sometimes succeed in attracting women.

I don't know that the techniques succeed so much as so-called PUAs (so called because the "artist" part is extremely questionable) just keep trying and if you keep throwing mud at a wall, some of it's going to stick.

Most men who are out specifically looking for women probably approach one or two all night. If a man approached 20 women, it doesn't matter if he's using PUA-style shittiness or if he's just approaching women like a normal human being, he's probably at least leaving with a phone number.

edit to add: Unless he's really off-putting.

[Ad Nihilo]

Eh... Socially retarded men targeting (abusively in most cases) emotionally retarded women.

Everyone loses and everything about the world is worse. Thanks dickheads.

[Aparatix]

Dunno, but if you treat women as some slab of meat you have to "pick up" you're clearly a massive asshat.

Yes, and a lot of men do think that way and it's quite disgusting, to put it mildly. However, a lot of people do look at it from a very different perspective. That understanding these social nuances and making an effort to subconsciously boost attraction is beneficial for all parties involved, both romantically and socially.

[Ostroeuropa]

acknowledging that the techniques espoused do sometimes succeed in attracting women.

I don't know that the techniques succeed so much as so-called PUAs (so called because the "artist" part is extremely questionable) just keep trying and if you keep throwing mud at a wall, some of it's going to stick.

Most men who are out specifically looking for women probably approach one or two all night. If a man approached 20 women, it doesn't matter if he's using PUA-style shittiness or if he's just approaching women like a normal human being, he's probably at least leaving with a phone number.

You'd like that to be the case, but it pretty much isn't. Most women are traditionalist to one extent or another in their outlook when it comes to the type of man they want, and much of TRPs advice revolves around living up to this expectation.

I agree with you that in terms of maintaining a relationship it's fairly poor advice, but in terms of getting women to sleep with you it's fairly successful.

I suspect this is why feminists get pretty angry about it, in part because they mostly associate with other feminists and don't realize most women actually like the stuff. There would be no market for TRP if it didn't work.

Not only that, but TRP provides a step by step process to ask for the number and such, something men might struggle to do themselves due to social anxiety. In addition, no offence, but almsost no women actually understand how courting women works.
From the womans perspective it just happens when a guy approaches her.
The man is putting a lot of effort and thought into when to ask and how to get the mood right.

You're like a person who describes a magic act as "And then the dove comes out of the hat, its so simple."
Sure.
Sure it is.

"Just ask for the number."
This is why men come to TRP.
The advice from many women is flat out wrong.
Telling them this also makes them really butthurt, so they hate pickupartists.

Some women get it though.

It's not a case of a man going around asking 20 women. There's a way to ask, and a way to get them interested.

[Aparatix]

acknowledging that the techniques espoused do sometimes succeed in attracting women.

I don't know that the techniques succeed so much as so-called PUAs (so called because the "artist" part is extremely questionable) just keep trying and if you keep throwing mud at a wall, some of it's going to stick.

Most men who are out specifically looking for women probably approach one or two all night. If a man approached 20 women, it doesn't matter if he's using PUA-style shittiness or if he's just approaching women like a normal human being, he's probably at least leaving with a phone number.

edit to add: Unless he's really off-putting.

Of course, mass approach is going to be more effective than the opposite. But I think a better way to measure how good you are with women, isn't how many you "get with" but the ratio of rejection to acceptance. Which a lot of people do rather than sheer volume.

[Shaggy Dog Story]

I don't know that the techniques succeed so much as so-called PUAs (so called because the "artist" part is extremely questionable) just keep trying and if you keep throwing mud at a wall, some of it's going to stick.

Most men who are out specifically looking for women probably approach one or two all night. If a man approached 20 women, it doesn't matter if he's using PUA-style shittiness or if he's just approaching women like a normal human being, he's probably at least leaving with a phone number.

You'd like that to be the case, but it pretty much isn't. Most women are traditionalist to one extent or another in their outlook when it comes to the type of man they want, and much of TRPs advice revolves around living up to this expectation.

I agree with you that in terms of maintaining a relationship it's fairly poor advice, but in terms of getting women to sleep with you it's fairly successful.

I suspect this is why feminists get pretty angry about it, in part because they mostly associate with other feminists and don't realize most women actually like the stuff. There would be no market for TRP if it didn't work.

Not only that, but TRP provides a step by step process to ask for the number and such, something men might struggle to do themselves due to social anxiety.

I don't think it's accurate to say most. Some women are I guess. And if you focus on one tactic aggressively enough you'll end successful eventually.

I also think if the main reason someone hasn't been successful interacting with people is social anxiety they'd be much better off utilizing the skills of a licensed therapist and psychiatrist. The best way to end up in a relationship is just to talk to people. If that's your difficulty trained professionals already exist to help you.

[Aparatix]

Eh... Socially retarded men targeting (abusively in most cases) emotionally retarded women.

Everyone loses and everything about the world is worse. Thanks dickheads.

Er, the author I cited in the OP may be many things that aren't positive, but he is incredibly socially savvy.

[Saiwania]

What I don't like about PUA is that it is all about sex for them, all too often they just want to brag about how many women they've slept with and are obsessed about it, beyond merely treating casual sex as just a hobby they like to do.

[Ostroeuropa]

You'd like that to be the case, but it pretty much isn't. Most women are traditionalist to one extent or another in their outlook when it comes to the type of man they want, and much of TRPs advice revolves around living up to this expectation.

I agree with you that in terms of maintaining a relationship it's fairly poor advice, but in terms of getting women to sleep with you it's fairly successful.

I suspect this is why feminists get pretty angry about it, in part because they mostly associate with other feminists and don't realize most women actually like the stuff. There would be no market for TRP if it didn't work.

Not only that, but TRP provides a step by step process to ask for the number and such, something men might struggle to do themselves due to social anxiety.

I don't think it's accurate to say most. Some women are I guess. And if you focus on one tactic aggressively enough you'll end successful eventually.

I also think if the main reason someone hasn't been successful interacting with people is social anxiety they'd be much better off utilizing the skills of a licensed therapist and psychiatrist. The best way to end up in a relationship is just to talk to people. If that's your difficulty trained professionals already exist to help you.

It isn't to get a relationship, it's to get sex. Most of the communities themselves will tell you not to bother with relationships. Those that say relationships are okay will tend to say not to use the techniques to find a woman for a relationship.
Those that do are, well, typically closed in their worldview of how women work.

[Esternial]

Dunno, but if you treat women as some slab of meat you have to "pick up" you're clearly a massive asshat.

Yes, and a lot of men do think that way and it's quite disgusting, to put it mildly. However, a lot of people do look at it from a very different perspective. That understanding these social nuances and making an effort to subconsciously boost attraction is beneficial for all parties involved, both romantically and socially.

Ultimately depends on your mentality.

Not sure about the approach to treating social interactions as a science, though, considering the reductionist nature of most sciences.

[Aparatix]

What I don't like about PUA is that it is all about sex for them, all too often they just want to brag about how many women they've slept with and want bragging rights that accompany that and being obsessed about it, beyond merely treating casual sex as just a hobby they like to do.

That's true, I very much dislike men who openly talk about their success rate with women. The majority of it is lies/exaggerations/making up for insecurities, and honestly it makes me feel more secure of myself when someone does it, but it still bothers me.

[Ad Nihilo]

I don't know that the techniques succeed so much as so-called PUAs (so called because the "artist" part is extremely questionable) just keep trying and if you keep throwing mud at a wall, some of it's going to stick.

Most men who are out specifically looking for women probably approach one or two all night. If a man approached 20 women, it doesn't matter if he's using PUA-style shittiness or if he's just approaching women like a normal human being, he's probably at least leaving with a phone number.

edit to add: Unless he's really off-putting.

Of course, mass approach is going to be more effective than the opposite. But I think a better way to measure how good you are with women, isn't how many you "get with" but the ratio of rejection to acceptance. Which a lot of people do rather than sheer volume.

Again, wrong.

The measure of how "good you are with women", is if you are talking to a person who happens to be a woman (or more), you enjoy talking to her (/them) and would rather be doing what you are doing and spending time with them than anything else. And when they feel the same way about you.

The meatmarket is for emotionally disfunctional fuckwits, regardless of gender. But let's not call that "good with women/men", ya?

[Aparatix]

Yes, and a lot of men do think that way and it's quite disgusting, to put it mildly. However, a lot of people do look at it from a very different perspective. That understanding these social nuances and making an effort to subconsciously boost attraction is beneficial for all parties involved, both romantically and socially.

Ultimately depends on your mentality.

Not sure about the approach to treating social interactions as a science, though, considering the reductionist nature of most sciences.

Well, social sciences are a thing. There will always be a degree of ambiguity and subjectiveness, but ultimately you can still treat it academically.

[Ad Nihilo]

Eh... Socially retarded men targeting (abusively in most cases) emotionally retarded women.

Everyone loses and everything about the world is worse. Thanks dickheads.

Er, the author I cited in the OP may be many things that aren't positive, but he is incredibly socially savvy.

In the same way that psychopaths are emotionally savvy. The look at you like they would an dumb animal and know what outputs to expect for a given output. Absolutely no sensitivity or empathy, or indeed concern for what the person they are talking to is feeling. The only thing they are interested in is what the person they are talking to is going to do for them.

[Ostroeuropa]

Of course, mass approach is going to be more effective than the opposite. But I think a better way to measure how good you are with women, isn't how many you "get with" but the ratio of rejection to acceptance. Which a lot of people do rather than sheer volume.

Again, wrong.

The measure of how "good you are with women", is if you are talking to a person who happens to be a woman (or more), you enjoy talking to her (/them) and would rather be doing what you are doing and spending time with them than anything else. And when they feel the same way about you.

The meatmarket is for emotionally disfunctional fuckwits, regardless of gender. But let's not call that "good with women/men", ya?

"Good with women" is a nonsense term, I agree. The terminology used basically assumed that women are there to have sex with and nothing more.
If that's your goal, then you can be good at it.
I don't think any PUA community that I know of claims its techniques are for stable relationships. It's about being able to fake it for a limited duration of time. Eventually, she'll find out you aren't what you're pretending to be. I've heard them call it "Social Makeup." and such.

As an MRA, i'm only interested in the practice for what it says about misandrist outlooks women might hold. I don't think it should be a necessary one.