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Bloody Sunday; IRA and General Anglo/Irish Discussion Thread

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New Decius
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Bloody Sunday; IRA and General Anglo/Irish Discussion Thread

Postby New Decius » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:45 pm

So today for an hour, at school in a mash-up for the Psychology and World History classes, we had a very detailed lesson, or rather lecture as it was a hundred of us students in an assembly hall taking notes as videos and pictures showed on a large screen and the teachers made their own comments. Anyway it was on the Trouble's in Northern Ireland, Bloody Sunday in specific. That was what gave me this idea, since we were not only learning about the events of the era but also a take on human nature and who was at fault.

Now for those of you who don't know; The Troubles were a series of ethno-nationalist conflicts in Northern Ireland, which also spilled over to Great Britain and Mainland Europe, from, when historians generally agree on, 1968 till the Belfast Good Friday agreement in 1998. It basically turned Northern Ireland into a place of brother vs. brother, with Catholic Irish Republicans (Backed by the Irish Free State) and Protestant Irish Unionists (Backed by the then still existing British Empire) going at it like hounds. The British government all but openly supported Unionists paramilitary groups and did its best to make life hell for Irish Republican groups that wanted a united Ireland, which included deploying military forces in Northern Ireland to harass Catholic's and Republicans. This in turn caused groups such as the IRA (Irish Republican Army) to turn from what could have been considered warfare or liberation warfare, into what can only be described as terrorism.

Bloody Sunday, was an incident on January 30th, 1972, in Derry, Northern Ireland. British soldiers shot 26 unarmed civilians during a protest march against internment. Fourteen people died: thirteen were killed outright, while the death of another man four-and-a-half months later was attributed to his injuries. Many of the victims were shot while fleeing from the soldiers and some were shot while trying to help the wounded. Two protesters were also injured when they were run down by army vehicles. The march had been organised by the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association and the Northern Resistance Movement. The soldiers involved were members of the 1st Battalion, Parachute Regiment, also known as "1 Para". It has been confirmed that during the events, British officers ordered troops to cease fire but instead they began to pursue the fleeing protesters and continued to fire on them, despite there being no armed protesters confirmed, no return shots, not even rocks thrown. The shooting was indiscriminate. Many call this a crime against humanity, and the British government only apologized for this is 2010, approximately 32 years after the fact.

Now my question is what is the general take on the Northern Ireland situation in regards to Anglo/Irish relations and events through history. Particularly, does anyone think that one side shares more of the blame or responsibility for the violence in Northern Ireland escalating? What is your take on it.


Personally, in the Bloody Sunday situation, I look at a modern day example; American soldiers in Baghdad. In Baghdad, American soldiers are basically like a monkey in the middle between the few natives that want them there and the rest who hate their guts, not to bring up the conflict between the Sunni's and Shia. Now these soldiers are a long way from home, and even if they won't admit it, their afraid, everything is strange, a possible threat lurking around every corner. Now Baghdad is still more stable than Northern Ireland was during the Troubles. With Bloody Sunday, British troops prior to this knew that they were widely hated and what with the amped up IRA attacks on British military forces in Northern Ireland, it gives a sense of paranoia. Even if these soldiers are hearing a cease fire order, if they saw someone and thought they were holding a gun, fear and a soldier's instinct will take over and they are going to pull the trigger. This does not excuse their actions but I am trying to make the argument that these soldiers are not exactly satanic unfeeling beasts, more like they were conditioned into reacting in this fashion.
Proud advocate that Europe stands stronger together than divided. The EU may be flawed in some areas but the idea of a united Europa can only bring good fortune to Europe and the world. For more than two thousand years, Europe was home to conflicts inspired by coveting one another's territory and resources, even making the continent the home to some of the world's most destructive and costly conflicts. But the idea was all wrong in their minds. Their idea was to bring this territory or that under their flag and spread influence on the continent. The idea they should all have been thinking was that the goal should be to bring the continent under one unified flag.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:46 pm

Oh Christ. Didn't we just have this?

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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:15 pm

This is going to end well.
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New Benian Republic
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Postby New Benian Republic » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:20 pm

I don't want to say anything but I'll end up a saying something.
~~~Support Sinn Féinn I guess~~~

~Like all true Irishmen I have no ancestors. I was birthed from Ireland's soil itself, fully formed, like a potato.~
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Republic of Coldwater
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Postby Republic of Coldwater » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:06 pm

The Brits invaded another people and another nation. All cultures and peoples should be entitled to a sovereign state where they are the absolute majority.

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Postby Samnoreg » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:12 pm

I think Éire ought to be united, but it's up to the north to decide which way they want to go, really. That said, my sympathies are still with Irish Republicans.
Last edited by Samnoreg on Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:18 pm

Republic of Coldwater wrote:The Brits invaded another people and another nation. All cultures and peoples should be entitled to a sovereign state where they are the absolute majority.


Eh, technically it was the French who invaded Ireland. We should blame them.

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Postby United Marxist Nations » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:46 pm

Up the RA.
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New Decius
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Postby New Decius » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:57 pm

Samnoreg wrote:I think Éire ought to be united, but it's up to the north to decide which way they want to go, really. That said, my sympathies are still with Irish Republicans.


But, was it justified for the IRA to resort to terrorist actions to combat the oppressive iron hand of British imperialism?
Proud advocate that Europe stands stronger together than divided. The EU may be flawed in some areas but the idea of a united Europa can only bring good fortune to Europe and the world. For more than two thousand years, Europe was home to conflicts inspired by coveting one another's territory and resources, even making the continent the home to some of the world's most destructive and costly conflicts. But the idea was all wrong in their minds. Their idea was to bring this territory or that under their flag and spread influence on the continent. The idea they should all have been thinking was that the goal should be to bring the continent under one unified flag.

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Samnoreg
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Postby Samnoreg » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:07 pm

New Decius wrote:
Samnoreg wrote:I think Éire ought to be united, but it's up to the north to decide which way they want to go, really. That said, my sympathies are still with Irish Republicans.


But, was it justified for the IRA to resort to terrorist actions to combat the oppressive iron hand of British imperialism?

No, they were not justified. I support Republicans, not the IRA. I was under the impression there was a distinction.
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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:38 pm

Until all of Ireland is free, none of it is.

FREE IRELAND!!

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Marcurix
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Postby Marcurix » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:42 pm

Well, despite the OP's apparent best intentions this really isn't going to end well. We've been down this road before too many times.

Republic of Coldwater wrote:The Brits invaded another people and another nation. All cultures and peoples should be entitled to a sovereign state where they are the absolute majority.


And yet, unsurprisingly, it's more complicated than that.

Mike the Progressive wrote:Until all of Ireland is free, none of it is.

FREE IRELAND!!


You know better.

United Marxist Nations wrote:Up the RA.


As do you.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:48 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:Until all of Ireland is free, none of it is.

FREE IRELAND!!


Given the current state of the Irish economy, I'd imagine it would be free, yes. Or extremely inexpensive....

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Marcurix
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Postby Marcurix » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:10 am

New Decius wrote:
Samnoreg wrote:I think Éire ought to be united, but it's up to the north to decide which way they want to go, really. That said, my sympathies are still with Irish Republicans.


But, was it justified for the IRA to resort to terrorist actions to combat the oppressive iron hand of British imperialism?


For sake of clarification, I feel that classing this solely as British imperialism might misrepresent the issues faced during the troubles. Not that I'm trying to excuse the actions of the British Armed Forces in certain situations, nor excuse the various governments inactions on the situation that developed - but that direction might overlook the more local source of grievances.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
-Winston Churchill

Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
-Winston Churchill

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New Benian Republic
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Postby New Benian Republic » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:30 am

Marcurix wrote:
New Decius wrote:
But, was it justified for the IRA to resort to terrorist actions to combat the oppressive iron hand of British imperialism?


For sake of clarification, I feel that classing this solely as British imperialism might misrepresent the issues faced during the troubles. Not that I'm trying to excuse the actions of the British Armed Forces in certain situations, nor excuse the various governments inactions on the situation that developed - but that direction might overlook the more local source of grievances.

It wasn't the inactions they took that was bad, it was the actions that they did take that messed most of it up.
~~~Support Sinn Féinn I guess~~~

~Like all true Irishmen I have no ancestors. I was birthed from Ireland's soil itself, fully formed, like a potato.~
Pro: United Ireland, IRA, Allan Ryan, Palestine, Malvinas, Ukraine, Hamas-Fatah cooperation, legalized Gay marriage, Tibetan Resistance, Basque Separatists, OPM.
Neutral: Bathroom segregation.

Anti: English Imperialism, Nazism, communism, Israel, Zionism, Margret thatcher, Martin McGuinness, good Friday agreement.
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Cruithneach
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Postby Cruithneach » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:38 am

I'm all for breaking down a country as much as possible. And occupied territories do have the right to resist.
However, I do feel as though the process should have been put to democratic vote. Northern Ireland, in 1973, i think, voted to stay in the UK. If Southern Ireland/Eire/Erin/Republic of Ireland wants to be independent, I feel as though they should have voted and the government should have acted accordingly.
If they voted to be independent and didn't get it, then they have a right to resist. Not through terrorism, but through other methods - general strike, boycott of british goods, de facto acts of independence like not accepting UK currency, disobeying UK laws, not sending Irish men to join the army, etc. until they became de jure independent
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New Benian Republic
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Postby New Benian Republic » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:47 am

Cruithneach wrote:I'm all for breaking down a country as much as possible. And occupied territories do have the right to resist.
However, I do feel as though the process should have been put to democratic vote. Northern Ireland, in 1973, i think, voted to stay in the UK. If Southern Ireland/Eire/Erin/Republic of Ireland wants to be independent, I feel as though they should have voted and the government should have acted accordingly.
If they voted to be independent and didn't get it, then they have a right to resist. Not through terrorism, but through other methods - general strike, boycott of british goods, de facto acts of independence like not accepting UK currency, disobeying UK laws, not sending Irish men to join the army, etc. until they became de jure independent

The unionists are the majority in the north so a vote is obviously in their favor, an all Ireland vote would be more fair. What makes you think the British army wouldn't have broken the strikes? And the UN guarantees the right of resistance to a native population.
~~~Support Sinn Féinn I guess~~~

~Like all true Irishmen I have no ancestors. I was birthed from Ireland's soil itself, fully formed, like a potato.~
Pro: United Ireland, IRA, Allan Ryan, Palestine, Malvinas, Ukraine, Hamas-Fatah cooperation, legalized Gay marriage, Tibetan Resistance, Basque Separatists, OPM.
Neutral: Bathroom segregation.

Anti: English Imperialism, Nazism, communism, Israel, Zionism, Margret thatcher, Martin McGuinness, good Friday agreement.
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:49 am

Maybe not U2s best song, but it's pretty good.
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Postby Vassenor » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:50 am

New Benian Republic wrote:
Cruithneach wrote:I'm all for breaking down a country as much as possible. And occupied territories do have the right to resist.
However, I do feel as though the process should have been put to democratic vote. Northern Ireland, in 1973, i think, voted to stay in the UK. If Southern Ireland/Eire/Erin/Republic of Ireland wants to be independent, I feel as though they should have voted and the government should have acted accordingly.
If they voted to be independent and didn't get it, then they have a right to resist. Not through terrorism, but through other methods - general strike, boycott of british goods, de facto acts of independence like not accepting UK currency, disobeying UK laws, not sending Irish men to join the army, etc. until they became de jure independent

The unionists are the majority in the north so a vote is obviously in their favor, an all Ireland vote would be more fair. What makes you think the British army wouldn't have broken the strikes? And the UN guarantees the right of resistance to a native population.


You mean like the one they had in 1997?

And I take it you think the Scottish referendum should've been open to everyone on Great Britain then?
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:55 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Republic of Coldwater wrote:The Brits invaded another people and another nation. All cultures and peoples should be entitled to a sovereign state where they are the absolute majority.


Eh, technically it was the French who invaded Ireland. We should blame them.

NORMANS GO HOME!
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The Greater Finnic Union
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Postby The Greater Finnic Union » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:58 am

Tag

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 am

Ifreann wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Eh, technically it was the French who invaded Ireland. We should blame them.

NORMANS GO HOME!


ROMANES EUNT DOMUS
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Postby Cruithneach » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:03 am

Ifreann wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Eh, technically it was the French who invaded Ireland. We should blame them.

NORMANS GO HOME!


Take Normans, swap few letters and you get ROMANS
Coincidence?
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Alyakia
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Postby Alyakia » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:13 am

the problem with the troubles is that at the time catholics were legitimately disadvantaged so it's almost impossible to say "the guys that fired the first shot by accidentally firebombing an old woman (of the very same group they were trying to "protect" in order to defend their privileged position of social and political superiority, yeah, those guys were in the right"

see also: the OP and the tragic case of "the thing that is used to defend literally every war crime/massacre ever"
Last edited by Alyakia on Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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New Benian Republic
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Postby New Benian Republic » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:07 am

Vassenor wrote:
New Benian Republic wrote:The unionists are the majority in the north so a vote is obviously in their favor, an all Ireland vote would be more fair. What makes you think the British army wouldn't have broken the strikes? And the UN guarantees the right of resistance to a native population.


You mean like the one they had in 1997?

And I take it you think the Scottish referendum should've been open to everyone on Great Britain then?

The Scottish referendum should only be open to Scottish people. So it was fine with me.
~~~Support Sinn Féinn I guess~~~

~Like all true Irishmen I have no ancestors. I was birthed from Ireland's soil itself, fully formed, like a potato.~
Pro: United Ireland, IRA, Allan Ryan, Palestine, Malvinas, Ukraine, Hamas-Fatah cooperation, legalized Gay marriage, Tibetan Resistance, Basque Separatists, OPM.
Neutral: Bathroom segregation.

Anti: English Imperialism, Nazism, communism, Israel, Zionism, Margret thatcher, Martin McGuinness, good Friday agreement.
I am an Irish Atheist and Republican, Not a Dissident stop saying I am.
RIP Óglach Alan Ryan

~~Proud Gaelige Speaker~~

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