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Some good old fashioned Holocaust victim blaming/badhistory

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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Some good old fashioned Holocaust victim blaming/badhistory

Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:13 pm

In an op-ed for FoxNews.com, Keith Ablow defended presidential candidate Ben Carson‘s controversial linking gun control to the Holocaust… only to turn that argument up to eleven.

Ablow readily agreed with the Anti-Defamation League that there weren’t enough guns owned by Jews in Germany to challenge the Nazis. But Ablow argues, “The mindset that Jews surrendered with their guns is far more important than the hardware they turned over: They surrendered the demonstrated intention, at all costs, to resist being deprived of liberty.”

“If Jews in Germany had more actively resisted the Nazi party or the Nazi regime and had diagnosed it as a malignant and deadly cancer from the start, there would, indeed, have been a chance for the people of that country and the world to be moved to action by their bold refusal to be enslaved,” he argued.

Ablow admits that “hindsight is 20/20,” but continued to argue “it was a bad idea for any Jew to have turned over a gun. It was a bad idea for any Jew to have boarded a train. It was a bad idea for any Jew to have passed through a gate into a camp. It was a bad idea for any Jew to not attempt to crush the skull or scratch out the eyes of any Nazi who turned his back for one moment.”

“And every bullet that would have been fired into a Nazi coming to a doorway to confiscate a gun from a Jew would have been a sacred bullet,” he writes. “To me, [National Director of the Anti-Defamation League] Jonathan Greenblatt seems to have forgotten those iconic words, ‘Never Again.’ Thank God that men like Ben Carson remind us of them.”



Source:
Salon
Mediaite
Fox News Op-Ed

Opinion:
Never mind the fact that millions of other people from various groups died in the Holocaust as well. Lets just take a moment to say how massive of a slippery slope their arguments actually are. Even when the Jews, and other groups fought back it was often decentralized, and quickly stamped down in certain cases. Many of these people who tried to flee before returned not by choice, but because they had nowhere to go. Of course Ben Carson started this whole charade by bringing up the fallacy of "Reductio ad Hitlerum" when people started calling for control control (despite the fact people have been calling for gun control for a while) in response to the shootings in an Oregon college. No how about we don't thank God for Dr. Carson's terrible victim blaming Mr. Ablow?
Last edited by The Hobbesian Metaphysician on Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Zeinbrad » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:16 pm

It seems the GOP is horrible at appealing to minorities.
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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:19 pm

Zeinbrad wrote:It seems the GOP is horrible at appealing to minorities.

Or really good at attracting the radicals within said groups.
I am just going to lay it out here, I am going to be very blunt.

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Postby Tsaraine » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:20 pm

Ben Carson should read about the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. And Lidice. It turns out spirited and armed resistance to the Nazis isn't some kind of magical spell of heroism. In real life, the plucky, rag-tag rebels fighting the evil empire often lose. Guns are not magical totems; I think a lot of the US' pro-gun lobby seem to not understand that.

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Postby New confederate ramenia » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:30 pm

Tsaraine wrote:BGhetto Uprising

That sounds so gangster.
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Talvezout
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Postby Talvezout » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:35 pm

I honestly wonder how anybody though this was a good thing to say
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:37 pm

Talvezout wrote:I honestly wonder how anybody though this was a good thing to say

It's the Fox News... Logic is sorely lacking with Fox News.
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Postby Talvezout » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:39 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Talvezout wrote:I honestly wonder how anybody though this was a good thing to say

It's the Fox News... Logic is sorely lacking with Fox News.


But doesn't Fox News like Israel

I mean

It seems like they would say something that wouldn't be offensive to Jewish people

Or am I reading this wrong
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:41 pm

Talvezout wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:It's the Fox News... Logic is sorely lacking with Fox News.


But doesn't Fox News like Israel

I mean

It seems like they would say something that wouldn't be offensive to Jewish people

Or am I reading this wrong

They know Jewish people are Democrats at a clip of 80-20 so they're just rallying up the NRA gun crowd.
Last edited by The Serbian Empire on Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tsaraine » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:44 pm

Talvezout wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:It's the Fox News... Logic is sorely lacking with Fox News.


But doesn't Fox News like Israel

I mean

It seems like they would say something that wouldn't be offensive to Jewish people

Or am I reading this wrong


Yes, but they also like guns. In their worldview, a gun is a magical totem with supernatural powers to resist government tyranny; so if anyone falls to government tyranny, it's obvious that they didn't use enough guns. The fact that a citizen's militia, even a well armed one, simply cannot stand against a professional army with an entire military-industrial complex behind it just doesn't register, because to acknowledge that fact would be to deny the supernatural powers of the gun.

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Postby Talvezout » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:44 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Talvezout wrote:
But doesn't Fox News like Israel

I mean

It seems like they would say something that wouldn't be offensive to Jewish people

Or am I reading this wrong

They know Jewish people are Democrats at a clip of 80-20 so they're just rallying up the NRA gun crowd.


Fair point

That being said, wouldn't it have been bad if every Jewish person was firing back at their Nazi captors?

I mean, this would have resulted in a greater crackdown on Jewish peoples...
Last edited by Talvezout on Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby New confederate ramenia » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:45 pm

Talvezout wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:It's the Fox News... Logic is sorely lacking with Fox News.


But doesn't Fox News like Israel

I mean

It seems like they would say something that wouldn't be offensive to Jewish people

Or am I reading this wrong

That's what makes this so odd IMO. Fox News, and mainstream Republicans, especially the Protestant Religious Right, normally LOVE Israel. It often goes beyond "Israel is a good ally" into religious territory
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Postby Talvezout » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:47 pm

New confederate ramenia wrote:
Talvezout wrote:
But doesn't Fox News like Israel

I mean

It seems like they would say something that wouldn't be offensive to Jewish people

Or am I reading this wrong

That's what makes this so odd IMO. Fox News, and mainstream Republicans, especially the Protestant Religious Right, normally LOVE Israel. It often goes beyond "Israel is a good ally" into religious territory


Same here

Then again, politics and Fox News is confusing so who knows

Tsaraine wrote:
Talvezout wrote:
But doesn't Fox News like Israel

I mean

It seems like they would say something that wouldn't be offensive to Jewish people

Or am I reading this wrong


Yes, but they also like guns. In their worldview, a gun is a magical totem with supernatural powers to resist government tyranny; so if anyone falls to government tyranny, it's obvious that they didn't use enough guns. The fact that a citizen's militia, even a well armed one, simply cannot stand against a professional army with an entire military-industrial complex behind it just doesn't register, because to acknowledge that fact would be to deny the supernatural powers of the gun.


I've never really gotten gun culture in all honesty

I mean, we don't have billy club or cat o'nine tails cultures
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:49 pm

Talvezout wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:They know Jewish people are Democrats at a clip of 80-20 so they're just rallying up the NRA gun crowd.


Fair point

That being said, wouldn't it have been bad if every Jewish person was firing back at their Nazi captors?

I mean, this would have resulted in a greater crackdown on Jewish peoples...

It would have ended far worse.
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Talvezout
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Postby Talvezout » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:50 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Talvezout wrote:
Fair point

That being said, wouldn't it have been bad if every Jewish person was firing back at their Nazi captors?

I mean, this would have resulted in a greater crackdown on Jewish peoples...

It would have ended far worse.


Exactly

But then again, the other is side is pretty much letting the whole thing happen without intervention

So much for a Morton's fork
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Postby The Holy Therns » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:53 pm

Talvezout wrote:
I've never really gotten gun culture in all honesty

I mean, we don't have billy club or cat o'nine tails cultures


Just give me a few months to kick off the International Association of Whipping It. We'll make it happen.
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Postby BK117B2 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:54 pm

Tsaraine wrote:Ben Carson should read about the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. And Lidice. It turns out spirited and armed resistance to the Nazis isn't some kind of magical spell of heroism. In real life, the plucky, rag-tag rebels fighting the evil empire often lose. Guns are not magical totems; I think a lot of the US' pro-gun lobby seem to not understand that.


The Warsaw Uprising was a good example of what could be accomplished.

Imagine how much more could have been with millions more of fighting age. He is correct: in hindsight it turns out to have been a horrible mistake.

The lesson to take away is not that the Jews (Roma, communists, etc) screwed up, but to not allow it to happen in the future. It really does fall under the old fool me once/fool me twice.

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Postby Talvezout » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:55 pm

The Holy Therns wrote:
Talvezout wrote:
I've never really gotten gun culture in all honesty

I mean, we don't have billy club or cat o'nine tails cultures


Just give me a few months to kick off the International Association of Whipping It. We'll make it happen.


Whip it real good.
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BK117B2
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Postby BK117B2 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:57 pm

Talvezout wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:They know Jewish people are Democrats at a clip of 80-20 so they're just rallying up the NRA gun crowd.


Fair point

That being said, wouldn't it have been bad if every Jewish person was firing back at their Nazi captors?

I mean, this would have resulted in a greater crackdown on Jewish peoples...


Yeah, who knows....they could have started torturing and slaughtering them...

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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:10 pm

BK117B2 wrote:
Talvezout wrote:
Fair point

That being said, wouldn't it have been bad if every Jewish person was firing back at their Nazi captors?

I mean, this would have resulted in a greater crackdown on Jewish peoples...


Yeah, who knows....they could have started torturing and slaughtering them...


Because the nazi media would have wide coverage of all the atrocities, it's not like the truth was only exposed after the allies liberated the camps and shoved the truth into Germanys face. :roll:
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Postby Werpdrarg » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:18 pm

“If Jews in Germany had more actively resisted the Nazi party or the Nazi regime and had diagnosed it as a malignant and deadly cancer from the start, there would, indeed, have been a chance for the people of that country and the world to be moved to action by their bold refusal to be enslaved,” he argued.

Ablow admits that “hindsight is 20/20,” but continued to argue “it was a bad idea for any Jew to have turned over a gun. It was a bad idea for any Jew to have boarded a train. It was a bad idea for any Jew to have passed through a gate into a camp. It was a bad idea for any Jew to not attempt to crush the skull or scratch out the eyes of any Nazi who turned his back for one moment.”

And it would have been a completely idiotic idea to do so. If all of the Jews had actively rebelled, many more of them would have died. If a group of Jews were rounded up and told to board a train, and they refused, they were, more likely than not, killed. If a group of Jews were rounded up and told to enter a camp, and they refused, they were killed. If a rebellious group of Jews attacked the Nazis? They would have died there and then, no doubt. If any Jew disobeyed Nazi orders, they could get killed. They were outnumbered and outgunned, because Hitler had just about all of the rest of Germany brainwashed into agreeing with him. So it would have been a minority group versus a whole empire. By obeying the Nazis, they had a better chance of survival - which says a lot when you remember the concentration camps.
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Postby Salus Maior » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:34 pm

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Postby Liriena » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:02 pm

That nonsensical argument had already been circulating for a long while before Carson decided to add it to his resume of self-ridicule. And it's just as absurd now as it was back then.
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Postby Sun Wukong » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:35 pm

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Postby Mefpan » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:57 pm

BK117B2 wrote:
Tsaraine wrote:Ben Carson should read about the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. And Lidice. It turns out spirited and armed resistance to the Nazis isn't some kind of magical spell of heroism. In real life, the plucky, rag-tag rebels fighting the evil empire often lose. Guns are not magical totems; I think a lot of the US' pro-gun lobby seem to not understand that.


The Warsaw Uprising was a good example of what could be accomplished.

Imagine how much more could have been with millions more of fighting age. He is correct: in hindsight it turns out to have been a horrible mistake.

The lesson to take away is not that the Jews (Roma, communists, etc) screwed up, but to not allow it to happen in the future. It really does fall under the old fool me once/fool me twice.

Oh yeah, the Warsaw Uprising was such a resounding success. The statistics I'm looking at say some ten thousand dead (and six thousand missing, another fifteen thousand POW which probably ended up adding to the "dead" statistic) on the Polish rebel side and some twenty times that among Polish civilians, along with the near-complete flattening of Warsaw and many remaining citizens being expelled.

And for all it was worth, the Warsaw Uprising didn't even manage to assure the existence of an independent non-puppet Polish state. Don't get me wrong, nowadays we perceive the Warsaw Uprising as a heroic effort against utterly inhuman tyranny but from a military standpoint it was an utter failure.

And an uprising of millions? Great, coordinate an uprising like that in the 40s as proposed. Best bet you'll get yourself crushed piecemeal. Heroic effort? Probably. Effective? Hardly.
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