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Prison Debate Team Defeats Harvard

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Eol Sha
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Prison Debate Team Defeats Harvard

Postby Eol Sha » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:56 pm

In an interesting story out of Massachusetts, a trio of inmates that are part of the Bard Prison Initiative faced off against three members of the Harvard College Debating Union in a debate on whether or not public schools should have the ability to deny enrollment to undocumented students. After an hour of debate, judges declared the prison team to be the victors.

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It may sound like the writing of Matt Damon and Ben Affleck, but a Harvard debate team lost to a group of prison inmates.

A trio from the Harvard College Debating Union squared off against three men from the Bard Prison Initiative at a maximum security prison in Napanoch, NY. After an hour of debating, the inmates were declared the victors.

“The prison initiative reached out to us to set up a debate, and we agreed. We wanted to be of any help we could be,” Dhruva Bhat, President of the Harvard College Debating Union told Boston.com. “The debating team thinks debating is a powerful tool, and we want to work with other organizations to try to get public debating in more public schools. Debating has changed our lives and this confirmed how powerful a tool education and debating can be.”

In one round, the three convicts had to promote the argument that “Public schools in the United States should have the ability to deny enrollment to undocumented students,” despite disagreeing with it. According to the The Wall Street Journal , the three prisoners raised points the Harvard team didn’t counter.

Despite not having access to the Internet for debate preparation and research, the prison team has previously faced and defeated debaters from West Point Military Academy and University of Vermont, according to the Wall Street Journal.

“Not having access to the Internet definitely made it a lot harder for them,” Bhat said. “Clearly Bard has given them a very solid foundation.”

But did the Harvard team go easy on them?

“We definitely did not,” Bhat said. “That would have been incredibly disrespectful of their talent and work.”

This isn’t the first time the prestigious New England college has lost a debate to prisoners. A Norfolk Prison Colony team formed in the 1930’s defeated Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and even Oxford, in various debates.


As far as what I think, I find it impressive, more than impressive really, that inmates with no access to the Internet were able to out debate these college students who had all of the resources in the world at their disposal. While I'm certain that the inmates, themselves, are quite intelligent, it just seems like an incredible challenge. Congratulations to the Bard team are in order, though. This just shows how a little education, and rigorous study, can go a long way. Hopefully the initiative is spread to other prisons or its processes are adopted by others.

What do you all think about this? Do you think there should be more programs like the Brad Prison Initiative available to prisoners?

Also, for anyone interested, I first saw this story on The Young Turks. In their video on the story they offer stats on prison recidivism rates and the effect education has on them. I'd recommend watching it.
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Postby AiliailiA » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:33 pm

"Not having access to the internet" might actually be an advantage!

Could also be that the prison team don't have anything else to study for, so they were better prepared. In any case, good for them.
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Postby Jumalariik » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:35 pm

Only in America would the richest and "most educated" be out-debated by what are meant to be "scum of the earth." Obviously grades are not even close to everything.
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Postby HanFei6 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:36 pm

Their position was probably easy to defend.

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Postby MERIZoC » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:42 pm

Yeah, this was on the Guardian this morning, really cool story. It's inspiring to see than even those who have had their lives changed irreversibly can still be dedicated and passionate about improving themselves. Props to these guys, I wish them the best in the future.

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Postby HanFei6 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:44 pm

It just goes to show that even manslaughter convicts make better presidential candidates

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Postby Godular » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:47 pm

Good on these guys for bettering themselves to this extent. Much props. Very admiration.
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Postby AiliailiA » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:49 pm

HanFei6 wrote:Their position was probably easy to defend.


The position they were given to defend was that public schools should be allowed to deny enrolment to undocumented children.

So no, not easy to defend.
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Postby New confederate ramenia » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:49 pm

Good for them.
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Postby Eol Sha » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:56 pm

HanFei6 wrote:It just goes to show that even manslaughter convicts make better presidential candidates

I doubt they'd be allowed out if they were there for manslaughter.
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Postby Greed and Death » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:00 pm

Jumalariik wrote:Only in America would the richest and "most educated" be out-debated by what are meant to be "scum of the earth." Obviously grades are not even close to everything.

Most people from Harvard will be the first to tell you that.

An interesting statistic, 75% of all associate hires are from the elite (called top 14) law schools, but 75% of all partners are from.

Something happens to the top 14 kids between associate and partner.
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Postby AiliailiA » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:03 pm

greed and death wrote:
Jumalariik wrote:Only in America would the richest and "most educated" be out-debated by what are meant to be "scum of the earth." Obviously grades are not even close to everything.

Most people from Harvard will be the first to tell you that.

An interesting statistic, 75% of all associate hires are from the elite (called top 14) law schools, but 75% of all partners are from.

Something happens to the top 14 kids between associate and partner.


Something happened between your brain and the keyboard I think. Want to try again?
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:07 pm

Jumalariik wrote:Only in America would the richest and "most educated" be out-debated by what are meant to be "scum of the earth." Obviously grades are not even close to everything.


Not everyone who goes to prison is ''scum of the earth''.

Anyway, good on the inmates. It means that they're very well versed on the subject, more so than the Harvard students. Or that these particular Harvard debating team wasn't very good.
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Postby Draica » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:07 pm

This is an antecdote, but this is an antecdote that can be used to peddle a very important point: Grades do not measure intelligence. Wealth does not measure intelligence and so on.
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Postby Cetacea » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:15 pm

Jumalariik wrote:Only in America would the richest and "most educated" be out-debated by what are meant to be "scum of the earth." Obviously grades are not even close to everything.


Not in this case. Many years ago the Auckland University debating team went up against a team from the Paremoremo Maximum Security Prison, the university team lost that time too.

There's actually a lot of really clever people in prison.

and also this story is cute, but not really 'new'

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Postby Antartide » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:33 pm

HanFei6 wrote:It just goes to show that even manslaughter convicts make better presidential candidates

It's kinda scary when you say it that way.
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Postby Greed and Death » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:37 pm

Ailiailia wrote:
greed and death wrote:Most people from Harvard will be the first to tell you that.

An interesting statistic, 75% of all associate hires are from the elite (called top 14) law schools, but 75% of all partners are from.

Something happens to the top 14 kids between associate and partner.


Something happened between your brain and the keyboard I think. Want to try again?

If I am not even seeing it, this south American alcohol I found must be a lot stronger than I thought.

Its made from grapes I thought pisco is about as strong as wine.
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AiliailiA
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Postby AiliailiA » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:53 pm

greed and death wrote:
Ailiailia wrote:
Something happened between your brain and the keyboard I think. Want to try again?

If I am not even seeing it, this south American alcohol I found must be a lot stronger than I thought.

Its made from grapes I thought pisco is about as strong as wine.


"An interesting statistic, 75% of all associate hires are from the elite (called top 14) law schools, but 75% of all partners are from."

Is there a word missing at the end? It seems to imply "from top 14 schools" which would mean new hires and promotion to partner would be the same ..?
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: eugenics :
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Postby New Werpland » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:58 pm

Draica wrote:This is an antecdote, but this is an antecdote that can be used to peddle a very important point: Grades do not measure intelligence. Wealth does not measure intelligence and so on.

These guys were also imprisoned with nothing to do. It's a good use of their time, and will probably improve their resumes when they get out, but it isn't an amazing feat.
Last edited by New Werpland on Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Greed and Death » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:05 pm

Ailiailia wrote:
greed and death wrote:If I am not even seeing it, this south American alcohol I found must be a lot stronger than I thought.

Its made from grapes I thought pisco is about as strong as wine.


"An interesting statistic, 75% of all associate hires are from the elite (called top 14) law schools, but 75% of all partners are from."

Is there a word missing at the end? It seems to imply "from top 14 schools" which would mean new hires and promotion to partner would be the same ..?

non top 14 law schools.

In other news the beverage I am drinking is 60% alcohol. I better put on some clothes and call for an ambulance as I was drinking it like wine.
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Postby A man is no one » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:32 pm

Whenever I've seen this in the news, it's seemed like the implication has been that the Harvard team was bad. But it doesn't look to me like they're bad, it just looks like the prison team was really good.
Last edited by A man is no one on Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby USS Monitor » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:55 pm

Anybody know how old these prison inmates were? As much as Harvard College students are smart for their age, they still don't have the same maturity and life experience that a lot of other people do.

Other than that, this just goes to show what a difference it makes when people put their minds to something constructive instead of whatever it was that got them sent to prison.
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Postby Palakistan » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:26 pm

Jumalariik wrote:Only in America would the richest and "most educated" be out-debated by what are meant to be "scum of the earth." Obviously grades are not even close to everything.

I like this statement.
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Postby Rusozak » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:25 pm

I think a big part of it is social class and the lives these people live. Generally speaking, it's mostly just well of people with connections that get into Harvard. These people, because of their backgrounds, haven't faced the hardships of less well-off people. This makes them less connected to the reality of these topics they were debating, and vise versa for the inmates. Imagine a CEO debating a single mom on welfare in the topic of welfare.

Or, to sum it up by quoting my father, "It builds character."
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Postby The Ben Boys » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:39 pm

Jumalariik wrote:Only in America would the richest and "most educated" be out-debated by what are meant to be "scum of the earth." Obviously grades are not even close to everything.


Only in America violent convicts (which go in maximum security prisons) would be glorified for defeating a higher institution in a debate.


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