God Wanted the Devil

[Infected Mushroom]

A scene continues to replay in my mind.

Lucifer and Michael face each other in the graveyard. Michael has orders to kill Lucifer. Lucifers says, his face and voice echoing with sincere emotion:

''Well what if its not my fault? Think about it. God... created... EVERYTHING. Which means... he MADE me... WHO I AM. God WANTED... the Devil.''

Is this true? Do you buy it?

Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, is constantly portrayed in religious narratives, pop media, and the traditional narrative as the villain. Generally, it is the tradition to blame the fall of men, everything wrong and evil in the world, largely on the shoulders of the Devil. He is traditionally, the one at fault.

But is he really?

Didn't God create the Devil and who he is, knowing how everything would play out from the get go? Doesn't his omnipotence imply that he could have designed things differently if he so chose?

I am of the opinion that God created the Devil and that God wanted to incorporate the Devil into his plans to ''test'' mankind or to stir up some kind of cosmic drama. Therefore, if God exists as he is described in the religious texts, then he is responsible not only for all of the Devil's actions but also for all of our actions. Morally speaking, none of us are accountable for anything if God exists. We are really robots with the illusion of free will and the fault lies with the engineer where the engineer has infinite foresight and infinite skills to tinker (since we know from science that each and every one of ours brains are different in subtle ways with different chemical balances and imbalances).

God wanted the Devil.

Do you agree?

[Galloism]

You presume something unsupported:

That God exercises infinite perfect foresight at all times. Such a concept is incompatible with free will.

[Celtic Kingdoms]

I see our Dark Lord Lucifer is the emancipator of humanity, liberating us from blissful ignorance and a rebel against tyranny. He represents carnality, strength, and individuality. Satan has constantly been vilified and inaccurately portrayed by our enemies for too long, he has always remained a gentleman even as his detractors and evangelicals screamed. We Satanists are glad to see the decay of Judeo-Christianity

Hail Satan!

[Consortium of the Caigont]

I see our Dark Lord Lucifer is the emancipator of humanity, liberated humanity from blissful ignorance and a rebel against tyranny. Satan has constantly been vilified and inaccurately portrayed by our enemies for too long, he has always remained a gentleman even as his detractors screamed. We Satanists are glad to see the decay of Judeo-Christianity.

Hail Satan!

Very well then, madam. I'm an atheist who's never studied the religious texts, so I dunno about God creating an enemy for himself.

[Gauthier]

I see our Dark Lord Lucifer is the emancipator of humanity, liberated humanity from blissful ignorance and a rebel against tyranny. Satan has constantly been vilified and inaccurately portrayed by our enemies for too long, he has always remained a gentleman even as his detractors screamed. We Satanists are glad to see the decay of Judeo-Christianity.

Hail Satan!

Oh please, when Satanists say "Satan" they really mean "Ayn Rand".

[Internationalist Bastard]

I don't know, I'm a pagan.

[Talvezout]

I see our Dark Lord Lucifer is the emancipator of humanity, liberated humanity from blissful ignorance and a rebel against tyranny. He represents carnality, strength, and individuality. Satan has constantly been vilified and inaccurately portrayed by our enemies for too long, he has always remained a gentleman even as his detractors screamed.

Hail Satan!

That's a pretty good devil's argument right there.

[Union of Christian States]

God created him, knowing what would happen, but not wanting him to choose it. God knows what you will do, He doesn't decide what you will do. That includes Lucifer and all the angels that revolted with him

[Internationalist Bastard]

God created him, knowing what would happen, but not wanting him to choose it. God knows what you will do, He doesn't decide what you will do. That includes Lucifer and all the angels that revolted with him

Holy shit it can be interpreted as a Christian reason against abortion.

[The United Empire of New Missouri]

Satan chose to be evil. God gave us free will. Satan was an angel but he wanted more power.

[Infected Mushroom]

You presume something unsupported:

That God exercises infinite perfect foresight at all times. Such a concept is incompatible with free will.

I'm not sure that necessarily makes the responsibility fall on us.

I mean... if an omniscient being voluntarily chose to intentionally withhold some/a portion/all information from himself about how we would choose in the future and basically chose to blindly roll the dice at certain points, isn't the fault still with him for choosing to roll the dice (and thus creating us a certain way leading to X, Y, and Z) as opposed to planning everything out to maximise our interest?

[The Jaclean Empire]

Satan chose to be evil. God gave us free will. Satan was an angel but he wanted more power.

I agree.

[Ndaku]

Satan chose to be evil. God gave us free will. Satan was an angel but he wanted more power.

I second this. This is in its most basic form one could state.

[The Forsworn Knights]

Satan chose to be evil. God gave us free will. Satan was an angel but he wanted more power.

If you read it though, Lucifer envied that the humans had free will on whether or not they wished to believe in god. He asked nicely, got denied, rebelled for increased civil rights. It was a slave revolt.

Also, when satan offered Jeebus earth, and a glass of water, Jeebus said he could get what he wanted at his fathers house. He did not say it wasnt Lucifer's to give or anything like that, he simply said he was going to his fathers home. Welcome to hell.

[Nilla Wayfarers]

How could god create him if neither he nor god exists?

[The Forsworn Knights]

How could god create him if neither he nor god exists?

[TURTLESHROOM II]

God didn't want the devil. He wanted man to have free will. Satan was the unfortunate harbringer of that means. God created Satan and allowed him to introduce sin into humanity because it was the only way to ensure that mankind would have Free Will.

Without evil, there is no good. Without evil, man cannot choose good. Without choice, God cannot truly receive the love that He so desparately wanted. I reiterate: God didn't want mindless love puppets praising him. He already has angels to do that. God wanted people to want Him voluntarily, to serve Him voluntarily, and to worship Him voluntarily. To achieve that, God had to create the means to allow man to have that choice.

Evil exists so that man can choose their own fate, their own destiny, and ultimately, be held to the consequences of those life choices. By entrusting man with Free Will, God allows them to seek and find Him and give Him the most pure form of affection that He could not have in Heaven.

However, if you are going to tell me that Satan is not the "bad guy", then you're either trolling or lying. God created His adversary because that was the only way to introduce Free Will into Creation. God is perfect and incapable of sin, and thus He could not force Creation (AKA mankind) to sin. To do that, he had to allow evil to exist, because He couldnt' do it himself. God is omnipotent, yes, but He, in His omnipotence, can limit Himself by his own decisions. Like all false deities, God- the One true Deity -cannot break His own oaths.

God created him, knowing what would happen, but not wanting him to choose it. God knows what you will do, He doesn't decide what you will do. That includes Lucifer and all the angels that revolted with him

This is exactly what I mean.

[Wolfmanne]

I see our Dark Lord Lucifer is the emancipator of humanity, liberating us from blissful ignorance and a rebel against tyranny. He represents carnality, strength, and individuality. Satan has constantly been vilified and inaccurately portrayed by our enemies for too long, he has always remained a gentleman even as his detractors and evangelicals screamed. We Satanists are glad to see the decay of Judeo-Christianity

Hail Satan!

Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffff. Nothing compares to the worship of the illustrious Sophia. May she bring me wisdom in this world of irrationality.

[Internationalist Bastard]

How could god create him if neither he nor god exists?

Look, I'm not Christian but please stop doing stuff like this. The point of the thread isn't to try and make someone accept your views.

[Benuty]

How could god create him if neither he nor god exists?

So you support the solipsist position that the universe may in fact not exist outside of your mental projection?

If one were to reject the pantheistic definition anyway.

[Wolfmanne]

How could god create him if neither he nor god exists?

So you support the solipsist position that the universe may in fact not exist outside of your mental projection?

If one were to reject the pantheistic definition anyway.

Eww, solipsism.

[Nilla Wayfarers]

How could god create him if neither he nor god exists?

Look, I'm not Christian but please stop doing stuff like this. The point of the thread isn't to try and make someone accept your views.

I'm not trying to convince anyone, just pointing out that it's impossible.

[The United Empire of New Missouri]

How could god create him if neither he nor god exists?

We get it you don't belive in God! You don't have to go around advertising it. I will be praying for you that you find Christ.

[The Forsworn Knights]

How could god create him if neither he nor god exists?

So you support the solipsist position that the universe may in fact not exist outside of your mental projection?

If one were to reject the pantheistic definition anyway.

There is a difference between athiesm and... That.

[Wolfmanne]

God didn't want the devil. He wanted man to have free will. Satan was the unfortunate harbringer of that means. God created Satan and allowed him to introduce sin into humanity because it was the only way to ensure that mankind would have Free Will.

Without evil, there is no good. Without evil, man cannot choose good. Without choice, God cannot truly receive the love that He so desparately wanted. I reiterate: God didn't want mindless love puppets praising him. He already has angels to do that. God wanted people to want Him voluntarily, to serve Him voluntarily, and to worship Him voluntarily. To achieve that, God had to create the means to allow man to have that choice.

Evil exists so that man can choose their own fate, their own destiny, and ultimately, be held to the consequences of those life choices. By entrusting man with Free Will, God allows them to seek and find Him and give Him the most pure form of affection that He could not have in Heaven.

However, if you are going to tell me that Satan is not the "bad guy", then you're either trolling or lying. God created His adversary because that was the only way to introduce Free Will into Creation. God is perfect and incapable of sin, and thus He could not force Creation (AKA mankind) to sin. To do that, he had to allow evil to exist, because He couldnt' do it himself. God is omnipotent, yes, but He, in His omnipotence, can limit Himself by his own decisions. Like all false deities, God- the One true Deity -cannot break His own oaths.

God created him, knowing what would happen, but not wanting him to choose it. God knows what you will do, He doesn't decide what you will do. That includes Lucifer and all the angels that revolted with him

This is exactly what I mean.

I honestly don't think Satan plays much of a role in the great scheme of things. When God granted us free will and a world to inhabit with finite resources, than it was obvious that there would be conflict and despair in the times to come. Satan plays a role in temptation, but ultimately it is humanity's own choices and inherent evil that causes suffering around the world.