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How does ISIL reconcile their actions with their faith?

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Yedmnrutika Gavr
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How does ISIL reconcile their actions with their faith?

Postby Yedmnrutika Gavr » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:41 am

Salam! So, this question/debate topic is coming from a non-Muslim who has been very curious and confused about something for some time now. How is it that ISIL militants rationalize and bring together their actions with their faith? I'm pretty sure it's against the Islamic faith (well most faiths for that matter) to burn people in cages and slit throats, so how do they settle this with the issues of faith and conscience? Do they just say it's OK because of some particular Surah about Jihad? Or do they simply just legitimize it by some cultural principle or by applying and reinterpreting the parts of the Quran that are relevant to their own motives? In either case I have heard several Muslims say they have no right to call themselves Muslims which would signal they have no true faith at all or need to harmonize the two. Some have also said the pilot is a hero, but what do you guys think? It is my opinion they are simply psychopathic because supporters not even present at his capture wrote messages calling for his death and not only that, but the article states they 'brainstormed' the sadistic manner in which to carry it out.

Here is the article about the guy, Muath al-Kasasbeh:
P.s. I apologize if there is already a thread about this. If so please just delete this and send me a search phrase or link. Thank you.

As Jordan mourns the young pilot who was burned alive by ISIS, questions are mounting over what the government knew about the fate of Lt. Muath al-Kasasbeh — and more important, when. Rumors of al-Kasasbeh's death have been circulating for weeks. State media reported on Tuesday that al-Kasasbeh was killed on Jan. 3 — which could suggest Jordan knew its negotiations weeks later for the pilot's release would be for nought. It would also indicate that ISIS was bluffing — and never had any intention to spare the pilot's life. There are some in Jordan who even believe the government was already aware of al-Kasasbeh's death before the video of his murder emerged Tuesday — and thus want to know why that information wasn't shared with the public from the beginning.

The main reason is probably that the intelligence around his death was not rock solid — or solid enough — to come out with a confirmation. "If they did know then I don't think they can have known for certain and that's the only reason that would have stopped them from saying anything officially," Winter said. "Imagine if they'd come forward and said he was already dead and then a video had come out with him saying, 'You've abandoned me.'"

ISIS supporters went wild once al-Kasasbeh was captured on Dec. 24, celebrating and calling for the pilot's execution. They launched a hashtag on Twitter that translated to "We All Want the Slaughter of Mu'ath," and jihadists on social media brainstormed creative ways to kill him — from beheading to harvesting his organs to even shooting him out of a canon across the border into Jordan.

As early as Jan. 8, tweets suggested the pilot had met a fiery end. "A group of ISIS members in #Raqqa are talking among them enthusiastically about the execution of Jordanian pilot…who was burned to death by #ISIS," one activist account, @raqqa_mcr, tweeted. Still, though, there was no confirmation — and al-Kasasbeh's family pleaded for his release.

Meanwhile, a video released on Jan. 24 by ISIS of Japanese hostage Kenji Goto said that countryman and fellow hostage Haruna Yakawa had been killed and that the militants were demanding the release of a prisoner — would-be suicide bomber Sajida al-Rishawi. That brought Jordan to the forefront of hostage negotiations, as al-Rishawi was on Jordan's death row for years. A subsequent video — posted on Jan. 27 — purportedly featured Goto saying that he and the Jordanian pilot would be killed if al-Rishawi was not freed within 24 hours. "I only have 24 hours left to live, and the pilot has even less," he said in the recording. But Jordan demanded proof of life — a move that now suggests there may already have been suspicions the hostages were dead — and the negotiations stalled.

"Clearly, Jordan knew more than they were letting on, and kept demanding proof of life for the pilot," said Evan Kohlman of Flashpoint Partners, a security firm and NBC News intelligence consultant. "Proof of life is typically something you see in cases of hostages who have been held incommunicado for months or years, not necessarily someone who has been held captive for two weeks." When ISIS released a video on Jan. 31 purporting to show the beheading of Goto, no mention was made of the pilot — setting off alarm bells. It was only on Tuesday that the new video emerged — and with it further clues that perhaps all of the negotiations and tactics had been a ruse.

An interview with al-Kasasbeh which appeared in ISIS' Dabiq magazine — released on Dec. 30 — featured an image of the pilot in an orange jumpsuit and quotes about the U.S.-led coalition's efforts. That same jumpsuit — and the same words — appeared in the video showing al-Kasasbeh's purported murder.

This time, however, the words were on camera — al-Kasasbeh speaks from a table with a noticeable black eye. When he is shown from a cage before being set alight, he has the same black eye — which suggests the murder was filmed shortly after the interview. "The fact that his black eye was still in a similar stage of bruising fairly clearly shows that he was killed shortly after when they released the interview," according to Winter. Then there was a document — allegedly from the "Research and Fatwa Committee" — that appeared to legitimize the use of death-by-fire as punishment and was circulated on Twitter on Tuesday.

The document — with an ISIS logo and seal — could not be independently verified by Flashpoint Partners. But Flashpoint said it appeared to have been distributed by locals justifying the burning of the Jordanian pilot. The document — with a date on the Hijri calendar corresponding to Jan. 20, 2015 — says that there is not an absolute prohibition on fire as a mortal punishment. "So it would seem that the decision to kill the pilot was made at least two weeks ago," according to Flashpoint's Kohlman. To observers, it was long clear that ISIS would never let the pilot live. Doing so would risk upsetting the ranks, who had called so vocally and voraciously for his murder, and essentially violate the group's ideals.

So why, then, the lag in releasing the video? Experts say the latest release featuring al-Kasasbeh's murder was expertly edited and produced — meaning it would have taken a lot of time to put together. "They took their sweet time to produce a very high-quality video to bring the message home that we're going on every single PR platform to make our message clear, and our message is: just as you treat us, we shall treat you," Flashpoint's Laith Alkhouri added.


One last thought. Do you guys think that ISIL is just the symptom of some greater, imminent transformations in the world? Anyways.. peace & love to all.

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Postby Risottia » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:46 am

Yedmnrutika Gavr wrote:Salam! So, this question/debate topic is coming from a non-Muslim who has been very curious and confused about something for some time now. How is it that ISIL militants rationalize and bring together their actions with their faith?

Same way Christians did with Crusades and genocides.

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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:48 am

I think it's a combination of things.

Firstly, you can interperate all three of the abrahamic religions in such a way as to give license to war with the unbeliever.
That justifies the killing, and from there, other influences take it to extremes.

If you have a lot of people who think killing the unbeliever is a good idea, they might start out in a more "Civilized" type of warfare where they use bombs and bullets to kill.

Over time they will suffer casualties.
These are not trained soldiers, and even trained soldiers, when their friends die, sometimes go a little crazy.
It's all downhill from there as they start indulging in sadism and hatred.

Alternately, you've got some ISIL troops pretty skeeved out by Omar The Psychopathic Asshole, but they have no real way to do anything about it. They use bombs and bullets. He uses cheesewire and matches.

Basically, I don't think they justify the extremes with their faith. I think they justify the killing with it, but the extreme actions are other factors, there's a lot of possible explanations for why they started behaving this way.

Certainly the dehumanization of the infidel plays a part though, but I don't think that's how they justify it.
I don't even think they try to justify it. I think they just enjoy it.

Serial Killers don't need a reason. They need an excuse. This is the same kind of thing.
I'd bet these people were pretty fucked in the head before Islam ever came along and provided the excuse.

For some it could be indoctrination, but I think it stretches credulity a bit to say that it caused the extremes of sadism we see out of ISIL.
I do think that the more rank and file members of ISIL are probably indoctrinated into militant islam and justify their faith through that interpretation, but the real psychopathic ones are probably just fucking nuts.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Yedmnrutika Gavr » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:50 am

Risottia wrote:
Yedmnrutika Gavr wrote:Salam! So, this question/debate topic is coming from a non-Muslim who has been very curious and confused about something for some time now. How is it that ISIL militants rationalize and bring together their actions with their faith?

Same way Christians did with Crusades and genocides.

Once you believe that the One True God is wih you...


Unfortunately good point =/ but it would seem in 2015 we would be a little past 'crusade tactics'. Especially since this religion has remained mostly peaceful and intact for so long.

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Postby Yedmnrutika Gavr » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:53 am

Certainly the dehumanization of the infidel plays a part though, but I don't think that's how they justify it.
I don't even think they try to justify it. I think they just enjoy it.


so +1 for old fashioned psychopathic behavior. and the part about dehumanization is very scary for me because some experiences ive recently had. thank you for your response

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Postby Saiwania » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:11 am

It is easy for them to do so because it is what Muhammad would've likely condoned, they are just following the example of their prophet who was a warlord first and foremost.
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Postby Yedmnrutika Gavr » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:17 am

so its a matter of pov in that case i guess. most muslims dont see the quran that way though, im curious what makes these muslims different. and of course then there would be no need to reconcile on behalf of isil if they think their prophet or god is a warlord/condones war also. truthfully all abrahamic relgions have this dilemma and split between the peacers and the warmakers
Last edited by Yedmnrutika Gavr on Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Mahdistan » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:30 am

The ideology ISIS follows is an extreme variant of Salafism, which is in turn an ultra-conservative Islamic movement within the Sunni sect. Many not-Salafi Muslims say that Salafism draws on Kharijitism, a despised sect which has existed since the earliest days of Islam, and basically started the whole Islamic terrorism trend through assassination, killing people while they are preying, etc.. However, Kharijitism is attractive to many extremist Muslims, because it says that you have the right to kill other Muslims, if they don't believe exactly what you believe, despite clear contradictions stating otherwise in the Quran. ISIS has built its existence on three things; extremists who hold Kharijit doctrine, even if they don't openly admit it, ignorant people who just want to see a new Islamic Caliphate but don't care what it takes to make it (thereby making it unislamic), and people living in Iraq who are angry about the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003. To all of these people, a person screaming 'death to America' is the leader of their dreams, which is how its managed to exist so long, at least, in simplified terms.

Saiwania wrote:It is easy for them to do so because it is what Muhammad would've likely condoned, they are just following the example of their prophet who was a warlord first and foremost.

Someone has apparently never read the Quran.
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:34 am

The same way that a Christian justified murdering an abortion doctor in his church. Religions are full of contradictions and lack consistency, leaving religious sects and individuals to pick and choose what they want in order to justify their behavior.
Last edited by Russels Orbiting Teapot on Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Yedmnrutika Gavr » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:37 am

Mahdistan wrote:The ideology ISIS follows is an extreme variant of Salafism, which is in turn an ultra-conservative Islamic movement within the Sunni sect. Many not-Salafi Muslims say that Salafism draws on Kharijitism, a despised sect which has existed since the earliest days of Islam, and basically started the whole Islamic terrorism trend through assassination, killing people while they are preying, etc.. However, Kharijitism is attractive to many extremist Muslims, because it says that you have the right to kill other Muslims, if they don't believe exactly what you believe, despite clear contradictions stating otherwise in the Quran. ISIS has built its existence on three things; extremists who hold Kharijit doctrine, even if they don't openly admit it, ignorant people who just want to see a new Islamic Caliphate but don't care what it takes to make it (thereby making it unislamic), and people living in Iraq who are angry about the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003. To all of these people, a person screaming 'death to America' is the leader of their dreams, which is how its managed to exist so long, at least, in simplified terms.

Saiwania wrote:It is easy for them to do so because it is what Muhammad would've likely condoned, they are just following the example of their prophet who was a warlord first and foremost.

Someone has apparently never read the Quran.


thank you for answering because i had never heard about this 'kharijitism' and maybe some others havent too. and about the last part hey ive never read the quran either but i know that isil is a minority and as such not the way most think about the prophet. :)

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Postby Laerod » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:37 am

Yedmnrutika Gavr wrote:
Risottia wrote:Same way Christians did with Crusades and genocides.

Once you believe that the One True God is wih you...


Unfortunately good point =/ but it would seem in 2015 we would be a little past 'crusade tactics'. Especially since this religion has remained mostly peaceful and intact for so long.

Cognitive dissonance shows no sign of ever dying out no matter how hard people try to combat it.

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Postby Yedmnrutika Gavr » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:42 am

Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:The same way that a Christian justified murdering an abortion doctor in his church. Religions are full of contradictions and lack consistency, leaving religious sects and individuals to pick and choose what they want in order to justify their behavior.


yes but also i think it is something else in the personality because these people are pretty much predators, trying to recruit and prey on people that are already mentally vulnerable. and also there is the issue of jihadi john being teased as a kid over his ears and breath. they feed off this pain. christian terrorists are simply puritanical i think. maybe for those same reasons of trauma, though.
Last edited by Yedmnrutika Gavr on Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby DBJ » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:44 am

They don't have to reconcile anything, it's the moderates that have to reconcile.

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Postby Yedmnrutika Gavr » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:49 am

DBJ wrote:They don't have to reconcile anything, it's the moderates that have to reconcile.


i was thinking this is pretty much the whole worlds problem now

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Postby Camicon » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:26 am

DBJ wrote:They don't have to reconcile anything, it's the moderates that have to reconcile.

Incorrect. It's anyone that claims to follow a literal interpretation of their religious text that has to reconcile what they do with what the text says. Every other stances allows for picking and choosing.
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:29 am

Mahdistan wrote:Someone has apparently never read the Quran.


I refuse to accept the Qur'an as a divinely inspired text but do accept it as a primary source for finding out about Muhammad during his life. He has all the signs of not only being a false prophet but a psychopath akin to Charles Manson. He had everyone who dared to speak out against him killed off whenever he had the means to and was a slaver, pedophile, thief, hypocrite, and mass murderer.

He had no honor and I dare say, the earliest opponents of Islam were fighting against evil from their perspective.

Just one example of many of the atrocities he committed:
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killi ... y_Muhammad
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Postby Vassenor » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:32 am

Saiwania wrote:Just one example of many of the atrocities he committed:
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killi ... y_Muhammad


How credible is wikiislam.net?
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:34 am



It uses primary sources just as Wikipedia does. If you dispute the website for being anti-Islam, you should dispute the primary sources it uses instead.
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Postby Vassenor » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:38 am

Saiwania wrote:


It uses primary sources just as Wikipedia does. If you dispute the website for being anti-Islam, you should dispute the primary sources it uses instead.


University of Gothenburg: Telling the Truth about Islam? Apostasy Narratives and Representations of Islam on WikiIslam.net

It is important to stress that "truth" is only associated with negative and critical stances against Muslims. Quotes are taken from Islamic sources and sayings from Muslim spokespersons and therefore presented as authentic, but selection and presentation of the material remains very one-dimensional, and alternative interpretations are seldom represented.


In other words, while it might use primary sources, it also cherry-picks said primary sources relentlessly in order to fit the "ISLAM IS EVIL" narrative.
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Postby New DeCapito » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:38 am

Yedmnrutika Gavr wrote:
Risottia wrote:Same way Christians did with Crusades and genocides.

Once you believe that the One True God is wih you...


Unfortunately good point =/ but it would seem in 2015 we would be a little past 'crusade tactics'. Especially since this religion has remained mostly peaceful and intact for so long.

Wherever you have religion, you have people who misinterpret it. Do not look at IS and think 'hey, that can't possibly happen over here... right?'.
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:52 am

Vassenor wrote:In other words, while it might use primary sources, it also cherry-picks said primary sources relentlessly in order to fit the "ISLAM IS EVIL" narrative.


What is wrong with that if it is true? Do you think that it would be less biased if it accepted Muslim apologist spin that is not grounded in historical fact nor in Islam's primary sources such as the Qur'an or Hadiths?

Certain facts are indisputable and have long been established. Muhammad did own and enslave people and did order plenty of killings and mass murders such as what happened with the Banu Qurayza and deliberately used the spoils of war to gain followers and for his own purposes. The historical record shows that at the least, Muhammad was not a morally righteous person. There is not going to be newer evidence that will somehow excuse the negative aspects of how Islam was founded.
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Postby North Calaveras » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:53 am

if muslims always want to say we are misinterpreting the Koran(sp?) then they should rewrite the damn thing or reword it so we can actually understand what EXACTLY we should expect.

I shouldn't have to worry about my life because of someones "interpretation"
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Postby Vassenor » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:53 am

Saiwania wrote:
Vassenor wrote:In other words, while it might use primary sources, it also cherry-picks said primary sources relentlessly in order to fit the "ISLAM IS EVIL" narrative.


What is wrong with that if it is true? Do you think that it would be less biased if it accepted Muslim apologist spin that is not grounded in historical fact nor in Islam's primary sources such as the Qur'an or Hadiths?

Certain facts are indisputable and have long been established. Muhammad did own and enslave people and did order plenty of killings and mass murders such as what happened with the Banu Qurayza and deliberately used the spoils of war to gain followers and for his own purposes. The historical record shows that at the least, Muhammad was not a morally righteous person. There is not going to be newer evidence that will somehow excuse the negative aspects of how Islam was founded.


And how do you know that it's true? Because the site said so?
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:53 am

Risottia wrote:
Yedmnrutika Gavr wrote:Salam! So, this question/debate topic is coming from a non-Muslim who has been very curious and confused about something for some time now. How is it that ISIL militants rationalize and bring together their actions with their faith?

Same way Christians did with Crusades and genocides.

Once you believe that the One True God is wih you...

In a word, badly.
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:54 am

North Calaveras wrote:if muslims always want to say we are misinterpreting the Koran(sp?) then they should rewrite the damn thing or reword it so we can actually understand what EXACTLY we should expect.

I shouldn't have to worry about my life because of someones "interpretation"

Tell it to the police officers the Bundy Brigade pulled guns on.
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