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Sinking the French Navy (WW2)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Bomb the french?

Sinking the fleet was the best course of action.
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74%
Sinking the fleet was a bad idea.
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Derpy Hooves could totally beat up Hitler.
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Total votes : 39

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Ostroeuropa
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Sinking the French Navy (WW2)

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:09 pm

It's a little different from most WW2 threads at least...

Following the fall of france, the french navy was docked in territory now under the control of either Germans, or the french Vichy government.

The germans had solemnly sworn to respect french neutrality now that they were "Out" of the war, and not to seize their navy, army, or airforce as part of the armistice agreement.

Churchill responds:
"What is the value of that? Ask half a dozen countries, what is the value of such a solemn assurance?"

It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German enemy. We are determined to fight on until the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers, and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty's Government have instructed me to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers el Kebir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives;

(a) Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans.

(b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment.

If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile.

(c) Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans lest they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies — Martinique for instance – where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.

If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours.

Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty's Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands.


The British bombed and sank a large part of the french navy after the fall of france, to prevent the navy from being used against the British isles.
This was regarded as a betrayal by many of the french, the admiral of the french navy assuring the british at the time that the french navy would not sail against britain and the allies. In 1940, about 13,000 brits were evacuated from Gibraltar to French Morocco. Following the fall of france, and the sinking of the french navy, the Vichy government found their presence an embarrassment. Later, British cargo ships arrived in French Morocco, returning 15,000 French servicemen who had been rescued from Dunkirk. Once the servicemen had disembarked, the ships were interned until they agreed to take away all the british evacuees, who, reflecting tensions generated after the attack, were escorted to the ships at bayonet point minus many of their possessions.


Years later, the germans would demand the remaining french ships be added to the german navy. The french navy scuttled and sank their ships.
The french admiral then sent a telegram to the british:

Admiral Darlan:
"Prime Minister you said to me 'I hope you will never surrender the fleet'. I replied, 'There is no question of doing so'. It seems to me you did not believe my word. The destruction of the fleet at Toulon has just proved that I was right.

Were the British right to sink the fleet? Were the french right to take offense? (A thousand french sailors died during operation catapult.)
Discuss.

(Personally, I think the British acted the best they could, and behaved rationally, and that the French should have blamed the Germans for the situation.)
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:21 pm

Given the uncertainties and time I think they acted with what was the last option available that would for certain prevent the ships being used against the Royal Navy. Though the loss of the men is still regrettable.

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Vistulange
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Postby Vistulange » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:24 pm

Was a rational move. While the loss of men is regrettable, the British executed a sound strategic plan. Why let your enemy grab a fleet for nothing when you can sink it?

I hope nobody says "it was a bad move because the Germans promised". Nazi Germany promised a lot of things.
Last edited by Vistulange on Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Iwassoclose
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Postby Iwassoclose » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:27 pm

At that point they were already stooges of the Nazis. Denying assets to people who want to see you burn seems like the right tactical movie.
Last edited by Iwassoclose on Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:32 pm

Iwassoclose wrote:At that point they were already stooges of the Nazis. Denying assets to people who want to see you burn seems like the right tactical movie.


The stooges part is debatable. They did sink the remainder of their fleet when Germany finally got around to demanding it.
Whether they would have sunk the entire fleet had the operation not gone ahead is another matter.

Vistulange wrote:Was a rational move. While the loss of men is regrettable, the British executed a sound strategic plan. Why let your enemy grab a fleet for nothing when you can sink it?

I hope nobody says "it was a bad move because the Germans promised". Nazi Germany promised a lot of things.



The Nazis eventually did break the promise, but the french sank their own ships in response to the Nazi demand that they be turned over.
This is where the problem lies.

The British sank the fleet in case the French wouldn't do this.
The French take offence to the idea that they wouldn't.

If the British were wrong and the French would have sunk their entire fleet rather than give it over to the germans, a thousand french sailors died for no real reason, and france was insulted by the insinuation that they are collaborators.

If the British were behaving with cold and calculating strategic thinking (As I think they were), the french should have understood, and sunk their ships before the 6 hour ultimatum ended, and thus saved the lives of the french soldiers, rather than trusting the germans not to demand their ships in the hopes of keeping their navy.

(I think that expecting the french navy to join the british is simply unrealistic. It would have broken the peace agreement with the germans while france was already under occupation.)
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:44 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Rio Cana » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:45 pm

In the end, nations have to worry about there own security. The French had capitulated to the Germans so anything could have happened with that fleet. Seems most of the French military were loyal to the government even though they let the Germans occupy half of France. Strange that no movement inside the Navy caused the fleet to keep on fighting. They could have joined the Free French or at least secured Corsica and continue fighting from there. But it seems when Paris falls the whole of France falls. Strange. :o .
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Postby Dyakovo » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:15 pm

Vistulange wrote:Was a rational move. While the loss of men is regrettable, the British executed a sound strategic plan. Why let your enemy grab a fleet for nothing when you can sink it?

I hope nobody says "it was a bad move because the Germans promised". Nazi Germany promised a lot of things.

It was a bad move because the Germans promised. :p
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:16 pm

The Nazis had also "solemnly sworn" to not invade the whole of Czechoslovakia and Poland.
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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:16 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Vistulange wrote:Was a rational move. While the loss of men is regrettable, the British executed a sound strategic plan. Why let your enemy grab a fleet for nothing when you can sink it?

I hope nobody says "it was a bad move because the Germans promised". Nazi Germany promised a lot of things.

It was a bad move because the Germans promised. :p

Never trust Nazis. :p
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Postby Tahar Joblis » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:26 pm

My favorite battleship class of WWII was the Richelieu class, for a variety of reasons. (It was designed scrupulously within the treaty requirements and still ended up fairly impressive compared to the competition.)

For this reason, I paid some attention to the history of the Richelieu. It wasn't actually sunk, nor was the whole French fleet sunk.

While under Vichy French command, the Richelieu acted in defense of itself (and by extension Vichy French possessions), but when the Allies won in the area, the Richelieu defected, and was subsequently refit in New York. The Allies' failure to sink the Richelieu in battle played out pretty well, I'd say.

Vichy France's "neutrality" may have not been something the Germans were interested in abiding by; the Vichy French navy, however, was not crewed by Germans, and until and unless they seized them directly by force, it was of limited use to them and represented a potential dagger in the back.

From what I can tell... the British didn't really destroy that large of a part of the French fleet by bombing them. Damaged a few ships, sank one battleship. Most of the ships affected in the sudden turn of affairs were those that had already fled to British ports and were forcibly boarded (for the most part, boarded with almost no bloodshed, and ... well, were not about to turn around and sail back to Vichy France in the first place).

Benefits were limited: Most of the affected French naval forces were sidelined in British ports, having already defected from Vichy service (just not to active Allied service just yet) and probably would have ended up in Free French hands sooner or later, and the ones damaged or sunk were very few in number. And what would the Bretagne had done had it not been sunk? Vichy ships were more likely to end up switching sides than to cause serious damage to Allied forces. There was a political price to be paid, and the benefits seem, well, quite limited in hindsight.
Last edited by Tahar Joblis on Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Empire of Narnia » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:33 pm

The British should be forced by EU and the USA to turn over an equal number of modern ships or be fully embargoed and kicked out of EU. They could also seize British assets around the globe and give them to France if they refuse.

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Postby BK117B2 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:02 pm

If France really intended to sink the whole fleet rather than let Germany have it, then the rational course would have been to accept one of the options to sail it out of there.

If they are either not behaving rationally or they would actually allow Germany to capture some of the fleet, then it was sensible to sink it.

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Postby Costa Fierro » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:08 pm

Just to clarify: the OP is referencing the sinking of the French fleet at Mers el Kebir in conjunction with the French scuttling the rest of their ships at Toulon, which happened I believe in 1942.
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Postby The Sotoan Union » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:49 pm

It's sad but that was a reasonable course of action. The Allies couldn't let the French navy fall into the hands of the Germans.

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Postby The Sotoan Union » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:50 pm

Empire of Narnia wrote:The British should be forced by EU and the USA to turn over an equal number of modern ships or be fully embargoed and kicked out of EU. They could also seize British assets around the globe and give them to France if they refuse.

While we're at it why don't we have Germany give Greece payments for the WWII occupation.

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Postby Costa Fierro » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:58 pm

Napkiraly wrote:Given the uncertainties and time I think they acted with what was the last option available that would for certain prevent the ships being used against the Royal Navy. Though the loss of the men is still regrettable.


At Mers el Kebir? Certainly. But Toulon was only the loss of material as it was the French sailors themselves who scuttled their fleet.
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Postby Sebtopiaris » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:00 pm

The French ships had glass bottoms so they could see their other ships- it shouldn't have been too hard to combat them.
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Postby Risottia » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:23 am

United Marxist Nations wrote:The Nazis had also "solemnly sworn" to not invade the whole of Czechoslovakia and Poland.

Basically this.
Also, the French units which didn't sail away to join the Free French were, although passively, helping the Axis.
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Postby Kubra » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:39 am

By this time the only good frenchmen were either away in the colonies+britain or fleeing to the woods to become Franc-tireurs. A vichy is a vichy and a vichy is really just less capable nazi.
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Postby Costa Fierro » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:01 am

Risottia wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:The Nazis had also "solemnly sworn" to not invade the whole of Czechoslovakia and Poland.

Basically this.
Also, the French units which didn't sail away to join the Free French were, although passively, helping the Axis.


Large numbers of French warships sailing through the Med would have created a bit of an issue for the Axis and the Germans, to the point where I doubt the Allies couldn't guarantee their protection from German and Italian aircraft.
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Postby Baltenstein » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:42 am

I think the best course of action would have been to hand the ships over to the Italians, who would have managed to lose them in record time anyways. :p
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Postby Sebtopiaris » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:23 am

Man imagine how badass it would've been if some of the French went pirate and started raiding nazi bases in the med.
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Postby Kaztropol » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:22 am

The events of Mers-el-Kebir, kept Britain out of the EEC for many years, as De Gaulle was understandably very, very upset at Churchill's actions.

At the time, the dangers of German commerce raiders was such, that Britain could not take the chance that large surface warships could fall into the hands of the Germans.

The way the negotiations were conducted, was not ideal. The British commander, who did not speak French, sent a subordinate captain who did speak French, which offended the French admiral, who sent a lieutenant. This caused confusion and lost time, as the full text of the British ultimatum wasn't delivered properly to the French, particularly option C, which was an option that the French Admiralty had already been contemplating, in the event of a foreign power (particularly Italy or Germany) attempting to seize the ships.

And then, fate intervened, when the French Admiralty sent an unencoded radio message, ordering a squadron of cruisers to join the fleet at Mers-el-Kebir. The British Admiralty warned the commander at Mers-el-Kebir, and told him to end the negotiations and open fire.

Time was up.

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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:44 am

It was also a demonstration of commitment to Roosevelt that the UK wouldn't surrender like the French did, so any blame can ultimately be lain on the French.
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Postby Tahar Joblis » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:53 am

Costa Fierro wrote:Just to clarify: the OP is referencing the sinking of the French fleet at Mers el Kebir in conjunction with the French scuttling the rest of their ships at Toulon, which happened I believe in 1942.

"Sinking of the French fleet" seems a bit of an overstatement of what actually happened at Mers el Kebir, AFAIK. According to Wikipedia, the only ship actually sunk was a pre-Treaty, WWI-era dreadnought. Another old WWI ship was damaged, along with one more modern battleship and a handful of destroyers, but most of that damage was subsequently repaired.

To put that in the context of the state of the French navy ... the French navy had approximately:

  • 9.75 functional capital ships (5 of them being WWI-era battleships and one, the Richelieu, being easily twice as powerful as any of their WWI-era battleships. The "0.75" being the Richelieu's sister ship, it was already about as fast as a WWI-era battleship with its drive systems as well as better armed and armored - just not particularly well-prepared for operations.)
  • 20 cruisers
  • 80 destroyers
  • 80 submarines

The British sank one WWI-era battleship - less than 10% of the French strength in capital ships - and no more than 40% of the French navy's fighting strength was in capital ships. For those of you multiplying across, that's the British sinking 3-4% of the French navy's fighting strength (damaging another 7-10%, but that was almost all repaired before the scuttling at Toulon). Omit that attack, and very little changes in materiel terms.
Last edited by Tahar Joblis on Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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