Swatting and the Second Amendment

[Farnhamia]

I'd like to start of by saying that I do not live in the US but I support the right of individuals to own weapons for self defence.
I live in Canada and the gun laws here are more restrictive, especially since we do not have a Castle doctrine.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if the police enters your home illegally you are allowed to defend yourself right?

The reason I'm asking is because not far from where I live there was a Swatting incident

In a situation like this, should a person be allowed to defend themselves or should they obey the authorities even though they are wrong?

Mod Edit: Corrected spelling of "amendment" because it was driving me crazy.

[Philosophical Anarchism]

I'd like to start of by saying that I do not live in the US but I support the right of individuals to own weapons for self defence.
I live in Canada and the gun laws here are more restrictive, especially since we do not have a Castle doctrine.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if the police enters your home illegally you are allowed to defend yourself right?

The reason I'm asking is because not far from where I live there was a Swatting incident

In a situation like this, should a person be allowed to defend themselves or should they obey the authorities even though they are wrong?

By Law in America? I do not believe so...
By Technical Constitutional Right's? I believe you would...
By Natural Individual Right's? Yes. You would.

[Vassenor]

I'd like to start of by saying that I do not live in the US but I support the right of individuals to own weapons for self defence.
I live in Canada and the gun laws here are more restrictive, especially since we do not have a Castle doctrine.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if the police enters your home illegally you are allowed to defend yourself right?

The reason I'm asking is because not far from where I live there was a Swatting incident

In a situation like this, should a person be allowed to defend themselves or should they obey the authorities even though they are wrong?

Pretty sure that gives the police the authority to use lethal force on you if you do that. Pulling a gun on police is pretty much game over.

[Big Jim P]

I'd like to start of by saying that I do not live in the US but I support the right of individuals to own weapons for self defence.
I live in Canada and the gun laws here are more restrictive, especially since we do not have a Castle doctrine.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if the police enters your home illegally you are allowed to defend yourself right?

The reason I'm asking is because not far from where I live there was a Swatting incident

In a situation like this, should a person be allowed to defend themselves or should they obey the authorities even though they are wrong?

If they do not identify themselves as police, you do have the right to shoot an invader. At least in the more reasonable states. Not every state has the castle doctrine.

[Greed and Death]

I'd like to start of by saying that I do not live in the US but I support the right of individuals to own weapons for self defence.
I live in Canada and the gun laws here are more restrictive, especially since we do not have a Castle doctrine.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if the police enters your home illegally you are allowed to defend yourself right?

The reason I'm asking is because not far from where I live there was a Swatting incident

In a situation like this, should a person be allowed to defend themselves or should they obey the authorities even though they are wrong?

If the police clearly announce themselves you must submit to their authority. If they were negligent in raiding your house off a false report then by all means sue the PD after the guys with the guns leave.

If they do not announce themselves clearly you may have the right to use reasonable force to defend yourself from armed men entering your home. However once it is known they are police then you must submit to their authority.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

So the question in this thread, as I understand it, is this:

You have been wrongly accused of a crime, and the police have come to arrest you. Is it reasonable/legal to assault/kill them?

Yes, absolutely. The innocent should make legal proceedings easier by making themselves guilty.

Please do correct me if I've misunderstood.

[Big Jim P]

Anyone caught swatting should be charged with one count of attempted murder for each life (cop or civilian) put at risk and one count of murder for each death arising form the swatting.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I'd like to start of by saying that I do not live in the US but I support the right of individuals to own weapons for self defence.
I live in Canada and the gun laws here are more restrictive, especially since we do not have a Castle doctrine.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if the police enters your home illegally you are allowed to defend yourself right?

The reason I'm asking is because not far from where I live there was a Swatting incident

In a situation like this, should a person be allowed to defend themselves or should they obey the authorities even though they are wrong?

If they attempt to enter your home without consent, a warrant, or reasonable suspicion that you had committed a crime, then the policeman is infringing upon your constitutional rights.

This isn't a second amendment thing, it's a 4th amendment thing.

Shooting them is a bad idea though, unless they are using force. If they just walk in without knocking and asking, then tell them to leave and call the police.

SWAT teams should probably check first before breaking down doors.

[Camicon]

I'd like to start of by saying that I do not live in the US but I support the right of individuals to own weapons for self defence.
I live in Canada and the gun laws here are more restrictive, especially since we do not have a Castle doctrine.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if the police enters your home illegally you are allowed to defend yourself right?

The reason I'm asking is because not far from where I live there was a Swatting incident

In a situation like this, should a person be allowed to defend themselves or should they obey the authorities even though they are wrong?

You're asking whether or not people should be allowed to gun down cops that try to enter their home?

Do you actually, seriously, need someone to answer that question for you?

[Big Jim P]

I'd like to start of by saying that I do not live in the US but I support the right of individuals to own weapons for self defence.
I live in Canada and the gun laws here are more restrictive, especially since we do not have a Castle doctrine.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if the police enters your home illegally you are allowed to defend yourself right?

The reason I'm asking is because not far from where I live there was a Swatting incident

In a situation like this, should a person be allowed to defend themselves or should they obey the authorities even though they are wrong?

You're asking whether or not people should be allowed to gun down cops that try to enter their home?

Do you actually, seriously, need someone to answer that question for you?

Under certain circumstances, yes you are allowed to. See mine and Greed and Deaths posts.

[Mefpan]

What the fuck. It doesn't fucking matter if you are allowed to defend yourself or not. Your Second Amendment won't save your ass from a storm of bullets from a mob of agitated and twitchy police officers. You're a fucking civilian. You've done nothing wrong. These guys are doing their job, even if done on false information.

Like, seriously. What the hell. If you are innocent and the SWAT kicks down your door, don't make any hasty movements and, damn it, just keep your hands away from anything that could pass for a weapon. I don't know, perhaps drop to the floor ahead of time so the distance between your face and the floor isn't large enough to cause damage when two of them throw themselves onto you to search and/or cuff you.

Don't pour fuel into the fire if you never wanted anything to burn in the first fucking place.

[Napkiraly]

Anyone caught swatting should be charged with one count of attempted murder for each life (cop or civilian) put at risk and one count of murder for each death arising form the swatting.

Not sure about murder, but definitely manslaughter.

[Big Jim P]

Anyone caught swatting should be charged with one count of attempted murder for each life (cop or civilian) put at risk and one count of murder for each death arising form the swatting.

Not sure about murder, but definitely manslaughter.

No, the intent that the victim get killed is clear, thus murder.

[Camicon]

You're asking whether or not people should be allowed to gun down cops that try to enter their home?

Do you actually, seriously, need someone to answer that question for you?

Under certain circumstances, yes you are allowed to. See mine and Greed and Deaths posts.

This isn't a question of is it legal, but should it be legal.

[Gauthier]

What the fuck. It doesn't fucking matter if you are allowed to defend yourself or not. Your Second Amendment won't save your ass from a storm of bullets from a mob of agitated and twitchy police officers. You're a fucking civilian. You've done nothing wrong. These guys are doing their job, even if done on false information.

Like, seriously. What the hell. If you are innocent and the SWAT kicks down your door, don't make any hasty movements and, damn it, just keep your hands away from anything that could pass for a weapon. I don't know, perhaps drop to the floor ahead of time so the distance between your face and the floor isn't large enough to cause damage when two of them throw themselves onto you to search and/or cuff you.

Don't pour fuel into the fire if you never wanted anything to burn in the first fucking place.

Of course most people aren't formally trained on how to react to a SWAT team kicking down your door, and the douchebag that sent them to a house usually does so in hopes the target does something reactionary and gets killed because of it. If Suicide By Cop is a thing, there ought to be a law against Proxy Murder By Cop.

[Lalaki]

If you are innocent and the SWAT kicks down your door, don't make any hasty movements and, damn it, just keep your hands away from anything that could pass for a weapon. I don't know, perhaps drop to the floor ahead of time so the distance between your face and the floor isn't large enough to cause damage when two of them throw themselves onto you to search and/or cuff you.

In the case of most unjustified shootings, the victim defied police orders in some form. Had they simply obeyed protocol, they would have still been alive. That doesn't justify what happened, but it should tell people to simply do what your told and challenge any injustice in the court room where things can actually get done.

[Big Jim P]

Under certain circumstances, yes you are allowed to. See mine and Greed and Deaths posts.

This isn't a question of is it legal, but should it be legal.

Defending your home against invasion should be legal. If the police do not identify themselves, then they are invaders. If they DO identify themselves, then they are not.

[Napkiraly]

Not sure about murder, but definitely manslaughter.

No, the intent that the victim get killed is clear, thus murder.

No it really isn't. Swatting someone doesn't necessarily mean you want them to die in the process.

[Big Jim P]

No, the intent that the victim get killed is clear, thus murder.

No it really isn't. Swatting someone doesn't necessarily mean you want them to die in the process.

It often means you hope that they do though.

[Vassenor]

No, the intent that the victim get killed is clear, thus murder.

No it really isn't. Swatting someone doesn't necessarily mean you want them to die in the process.

So what is it about then?

[Napkiraly]

No it really isn't. Swatting someone doesn't necessarily mean you want them to die in the process.

It often means you hope that they do though.

And your evidence is?

[Camicon]

This isn't a question of is it legal, but should it be legal.

Defending your home against invasion should be legal. If the police do not identify themselves, then they are invaders. If they DO identify themselves, then they are not.

But the question isn't "should you be allowed to shoot unidentified individuals that enter home ?", it's "should you be allowed to shoot cops that enter your home?"

From the OP: "In a situation like this, should a person be allowed to defend themselves or should they obey the authorities even though they are wrong?"

The situation being referenced is one where the home owner knows that the people demanding entry are cops. Under those circumstances, should the home owner be allowed to use lethal force to keep the police from entering his home? It doesn't take a genius to figure out why the answer is a resounding 'NO!'.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

No it really isn't. Swatting someone doesn't necessarily mean you want them to die in the process.

So what is it about then?

Being an asshole.

No it really isn't. Swatting someone doesn't necessarily mean you want them to die in the process.

It often means you hope that they do though.

It often means you hope their jimmies are rustled.

[Big Jim P]

Defending your home against invasion should be legal. If the police do not identify themselves, then they are invaders. If they DO identify themselves, then they are not.

But the question isn't "should you be allowed to shoot unidentified individuals that enter home ?", it's "should you be allowed to shoot cops that enter your home?"

From the OP: "In a situation like this, should a person be allowed to defend themselves or should they obey the authorities even though they are wrong?"

The situation being referenced is one where the home owner knows that the people demanding entry are cops. Under those circumstances, can the home owner use lethal force to keep the police from entering his home? It doesn't take a genius to figure out why the answer is a resounding 'NO!'.

True. Like I said earlier: If the police identify themselves, they are not invaders.

[Mefpan]

No, the intent that the victim get killed is clear, thus murder.

No it really isn't. Swatting someone doesn't necessarily mean you want them to die in the process.

While I agree that it is not proper to label every swatting incident (attempted) murder, I'm pretty sure we can pull together enough other charges to make the resulting punishment extremely painful regardless.

This isn't a question of is it legal, but should it be legal.

Defending your home against invasion should be legal. If the police do not identify themselves, then they are invaders. If they DO identify themselves, then they are not.

I do not understand how defending your home against a group of unidentified, armed men stomping around and shouting loudly is a sensible thing. You're not going to win. Why are people concerned about the legality of it when it is clearly a Bad Idea to try and Rambo it?

If you are innocent and the SWAT kicks down your door, don't make any hasty movements and, damn it, just keep your hands away from anything that could pass for a weapon. I don't know, perhaps drop to the floor ahead of time so the distance between your face and the floor isn't large enough to cause damage when two of them throw themselves onto you to search and/or cuff you.

In the case of most unjustified shootings, the victim defied police orders in some form. Had they simply obeyed protocol, they would have still been alive. That doesn't justify what happened, but it should tell people to simply do what your told and challenge any injustice in the court room where things can actually get done.

It is all about both sides being sensible about the whole situation. Do not fucking provoke the police if you're a civilian. Do not fucking shoot people for minor infractions if you're a member of the police. The first one rates much higher however when we're talking about the SWAT, who are generally only called in when Serious Shit Is Going Down.