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[DEFEATED] Repeal "Reproductive Freedoms"

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:02 pm

The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"It has already been pointed out how fetuses cannot be considered people and remain in compliance with WA law. They didn't exist. If you want to debate that, find somebody willing to stoop to your level of half-truths in debate; I have higher standards."

"Our government respects the inalienable rights of the unborn, while also remaining in compliance with GAR 286. We obviously cannot enact laws stating a fetus is not an individual, because that's scientifically false. The only choice is to mandate that the fetus' must be kept alive if a pregnancy is terminated. Failure to do so results in a prison sentence of up to 7,000 years."


OOC: I keep forgetting that your nation has artificial wombs. My mistake.

"If you have the means of keeping the fetus alive outside the mother's womb, then it is possible, but for those of us who do not, and I remind you that us "modern technology" folks are the majority here, it isn't possible to make that arrangement, so such sweeping statements are likely to cause confusion for those of us not intimately familiar with Neptumousian technology."

Wallenburg wrote:
The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:"Our government respects the inalienable rights of the unborn, while also remaining in compliance with GAR 286. We obviously cannot enact laws stating a fetus is not an individual, because that's scientifically false. The only choice is to mandate that the fetus' must be kept alive if a pregnancy is terminated. Failure to do so results in a prison sentence of up to 7,000 years."

Is there a resolution against cruel and unusual punishment? Because it seems like there should be.

OOC: This puppet of the Flood has artificial womb technology, which makes this a nonissue. One can have terminate a pregnancy in their universe without terminating a fetus. Its, in my mind, a perfectly fair technological exploit.
Last edited by Separatist Peoples on Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Imperial Frost Federation
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Postby The Imperial Frost Federation » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:45 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:"Our government respects the inalienable rights of the unborn, while also remaining in compliance with GAR 286. We obviously cannot enact laws stating a fetus is not an individual, because that's scientifically false. The only choice is to mandate that the fetus' must be kept alive if a pregnancy is terminated. Failure to do so results in a prison sentence of up to 7,000 years."

Is there a resolution against cruel and unusual punishment? Because it seems like there should be.


There doesn't appear to be a general assembly resolution regarding cruel and unusual punishments Ambassador.
Our General Assembly ambassador is Lt. Albert Nakiri
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Sierra Lyricalia
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:52 pm

Wallenburg wrote:"Exactly how does a surgeon tell if a woman wants an abortion because of the fetus's developing genitalia? How do you interpret the right to regulate as a right to prohibit? How do you protect against abuse of this clause?"


"Second question first: a right to regulate is inherently a right to prohibit under certain well-defined conditions - the challenge is to define a fair set of conditions."

"The first and third questions are harder: the only way I see to accomplish that goal in any way close to fairly would be to bar doctors, nurses, and ultrasound technicians (plus technomancers, telepaths, wizards, prophets, babushkas, wise women, melange addicts, hormone sniffers, clairvoyants, and common magicians) from informing the parents what their child's sex is going to be until the day of birth."

"The problem with that replacement draft at this time is that it's far too vague on what constitutes 'necessity' for regulatory purposes, leaving open everything from 'Well, the Rapture is coming, so in order to increase our chances of national salvation it's necessary to outlaw abortion almost entirely' to 'Listen, it's necessary for out of control sluts to learn responsibility, so unless GAR #128 applies, you're shit outta luck.' "
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:13 pm

Sierra Lyricalia wrote: 'Listen, it's necessary for out of control sluts to learn responsibility, so unless GAR #128 applies, you're shit outta luck.' "

OOC: "Shit outta luck and jolly well fucked."
While she had no regrets about throwing the lever to douse her husband's mistress in molten gold, Blanche did feel a pang of conscience for the innocent bystanders whose proximity had caused them to suffer gilt by association.

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The United Neptumousian Empire
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Postby The United Neptumousian Empire » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:28 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:"Our government respects the inalienable rights of the unborn, while also remaining in compliance with GAR 286. We obviously cannot enact laws stating a fetus is not an individual, because that's scientifically false. The only choice is to mandate that the fetus' must be kept alive if a pregnancy is terminated. Failure to do so results in a prison sentence of up to 7,000 years."

Is there a resolution against cruel and unusual punishment? Because it seems like there should be.

"That is a merciful punishment, although this level of leniency is mostly only granted to newer members of our Empire, who are less familiar with our legal standards. The species in our capital system live for 10,000 years if they take care of themselves, so 7,000 years is not even quite a life sentence. The punishment can be amended to account for the lifespan of the species in question."

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Helen Trevanyika
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Founded: Oct 19, 2015
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Postby Helen Trevanyika » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:33 pm

The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Is there a resolution against cruel and unusual punishment? Because it seems like there should be.

"That is a merciful punishment, although this level of leniency is mostly only granted to newer members of our Empire, who are less familiar with our legal standards. The species in our capital system live for 10,000 years if they take care of themselves, so 7,000 years is not even quite a life sentence. The punishment can be amended to account for the lifespan of the species in question."

"That is hardly merciful, considering that it clearly doesn't even attempt rehabilitation, when your civilization is so advanced. However, I am glad to know that life forms as mortal as I would 'only' receive about 60 years in prison."

"Nevertheless, under 'On Abortion', you cannot deliver these punishments for all abortion procedures."
Last edited by Helen Trevanyika on Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:48 pm

Helen Trevanyika wrote:
The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:"That is a merciful punishment, although this level of leniency is mostly only granted to newer members of our Empire, who are less familiar with our legal standards. The species in our capital system live for 10,000 years if they take care of themselves, so 7,000 years is not even quite a life sentence. The punishment can be amended to account for the lifespan of the species in question."

"That is hardly merciful, considering that it clearly doesn't even attempt rehabilitation, when your civilization is so advanced. However, I am glad to know that life forms as mortal as I would 'only' receive about 60 years in prison."

"Nevertheless, under 'On Abortion', you cannot deliver these punishments for all abortion procedures."


"It's really not. Under their system, abortion can be performed without terminating the fetus, easily and with little complication. The only reason to have a traditional-style abortion would be with malicious intent, since the "killing" wouldn't be necessary. Since no-kill abortions are possible there, there isn't any impediment to fetal personhood as I've previously outlined it, which would make traditional abortion in that jurisdiction murder. The equivalent of a 70 year incarceration for humans is a very reasonable punishment for murder of an infant, but only because of that unique technological development. Rehab isn't a requirement for fair punishment."

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Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:53 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Helen Trevanyika wrote:"That is hardly merciful, considering that it clearly doesn't even attempt rehabilitation, when your civilization is so advanced. However, I am glad to know that life forms as mortal as I would 'only' receive about 60 years in prison."

"Nevertheless, under 'On Abortion', you cannot deliver these punishments for all abortion procedures."


"It's really not. Under their system, abortion can be performed without terminating the fetus, easily and with little complication. The only reason to have a traditional-style abortion would be with malicious intent, since the "killing" wouldn't be necessary. Since no-kill abortions are possible there, there isn't any impediment to fetal personhood as I've previously outlined it, which would make traditional abortion in that jurisdiction murder. The equivalent of a 70 year incarceration for humans is a very reasonable punishment for murder of an infant, but only because of that unique technological development. Rehab isn't a requirement for fair punishment."

OOC: Translation: The Flood finally figured out creative compliance after all this time. Kudos.

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:55 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Helen Trevanyika wrote:"That is hardly merciful, considering that it clearly doesn't even attempt rehabilitation, when your civilization is so advanced. However, I am glad to know that life forms as mortal as I would 'only' receive about 60 years in prison."

"Nevertheless, under 'On Abortion', you cannot deliver these punishments for all abortion procedures."

"It's really not. Under their system, abortion can be performed without terminating the fetus, easily and with little complication. The only reason to have a traditional-style abortion would be with malicious intent, since the "killing" wouldn't be necessary. Since no-kill abortions are possible there, there isn't any impediment to fetal personhood as I've previously outlined it, which would make traditional abortion in that jurisdiction murder. The equivalent of a 70 year incarceration for humans is a very reasonable punishment for murder of an infant, but only because of that unique technological development. Rehab isn't a requirement for fair punishment."

"I suppose that is logical."
While she had no regrets about throwing the lever to douse her husband's mistress in molten gold, Blanche did feel a pang of conscience for the innocent bystanders whose proximity had caused them to suffer gilt by association.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:58 pm

Wrapper wrote:
OOC: Translation: The Flood finally figured out creative compliance after all this time. Kudos.

OOC: right? And since it scratches all itches, I give no shits about the OOC motivation. It's fantastically legal and I love it. Very elegant solution, Flood.
Last edited by Separatist Peoples on Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Omigodtheykilledkenny
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Postby Omigodtheykilledkenny » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:07 pm

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:"The problem with that replacement draft at this time is that it's far too vague on what constitutes 'necessity' for regulatory purposes, leaving open everything from 'Well, the Rapture is coming, so in order to increase our chances of national salvation it's necessary to outlaw abortion almost entirely' to 'Listen, it's necessary for out of control sluts to learn responsibility, so unless GAR #128 applies, you're shit outta luck.' "

False:

SchutteGod wrote:RESERVES to member states the authority to regulate this practice, provided such policies do not unnecessarily impugn the rights of individuals to avail themselves of such procedures, and that relevant stipulations of previous standing WA resolutions are honored,

FURTHER INSTRUCTS member states to take all necessary measures to protect such patients from undue harassment, intimidation or coercion.

The language does not sanction "necessary measures" to regulate, but to protect patients from harassment. It does state that regulations must not "unnecessarily impugn" reproductive rights, but for leaders to wank over that language as hard as you suggest would require throwing Reasonable Nation Theory completely out the window.

If you have any suggestions for improving the language, the author would probably appreciate your posting them in the appropriate thread.
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Sierra Lyricalia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:32 pm

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:If you have any suggestions for improving the language, the author would probably appreciate your posting them in the appropriate thread.

Yes, I'll try to stop threadjacking. It's just that

FURTHER INSTRUCTS member states to take all necessary measures to protect such patients from undue harassment, intimidation or coercion.

The language does not sanction "necessary measures" to regulate, but to protect patients from harassment. It does state that regulations must not "unnecessarily impugn" reproductive rights, but for leaders to wank over that language as hard as you suggest would require throwing Reasonable Nation Theory completely out the window.

...you're quite right on this point. I wasn't clear which part I was talking about and would like to clarify for the reader. I honestly don't think (or want to seem like) I'm going all-out for the last word on this, but maybe that's inevitable. For which I apologize. Anyway:

SchutteGod wrote:RESERVES to member states the authority to regulate this practice, provided such policies do not unnecessarily impugn the rights of individuals to avail themselves of such procedures, and that relevant stipulations of previous standing WA resolutions are honored,

What would constitute a necessary impugnation(?) on the rights at issue goes undefined.
[/will stop now]
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The United Neptumousian Empire
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Founded: Dec 02, 2014
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby The United Neptumousian Empire » Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:55 pm

Wrapper wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
"It's really not. Under their system, abortion can be performed without terminating the fetus, easily and with little complication. The only reason to have a traditional-style abortion would be with malicious intent, since the "killing" wouldn't be necessary. Since no-kill abortions are possible there, there isn't any impediment to fetal personhood as I've previously outlined it, which would make traditional abortion in that jurisdiction murder. The equivalent of a 70 year incarceration for humans is a very reasonable punishment for murder of an infant, but only because of that unique technological development. Rehab isn't a requirement for fair punishment."

OOC: Translation: The Flood finally figured out creative compliance after all this time. Kudos.

OOC: this nation has nothing to do with the Flood. it's not even a Christian nation, this is my real main nation, it actually existed long before I ever came on NationStates. any assumptions based on the Flood should not be applied to the UNE.

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Wrapper wrote:
OOC: Translation: The Flood finally figured out creative compliance after all this time. Kudos.

OOC: right? And since it scratches all itches, I give no shits about the OOC motivation. It's fantastically legal and I love it. Very elegant solution, Flood.

OOC: Thanks

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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:04 pm

The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:OOC: this nation has nothing to do with the Flood. it's not even a Christian nation, this is my real main nation, it actually existed long before I ever came on NationStates. any assumptions based on the Flood should not be applied to the UNE.

OOC: Dude. It was an OOC compliment to you the player. Besides, it says right in your sig, "I am The Flood".

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The United Neptumousian Empire
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Postby The United Neptumousian Empire » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:36 pm

Wrapper wrote:
The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:OOC: this nation has nothing to do with the Flood. it's not even a Christian nation, this is my real main nation, it actually existed long before I ever came on NationStates. any assumptions based on the Flood should not be applied to the UNE.

OOC: Dude. It was an OOC compliment to you the player. Besides, it says right in your sig, "I am The Flood".

OOC: Yeah, the nations are owned by the same person, but they are not related otherwise. that's all I'm trying to say.

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The Candy Of Bottles
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Postby The Candy Of Bottles » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:07 pm

"Repeal "Reproductive Freedoms"" was defeated 12,642 votes to 2,737.
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UED
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Postby UED » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:16 pm

The Candy Of Bottles wrote:
"Repeal "Reproductive Freedoms"" was defeated 12,642 votes to 2,737.


How many times has this been defeated again?
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:18 pm

UED wrote:
The Candy Of Bottles wrote:
"Repeal "Reproductive Freedoms"" was defeated 12,642 votes to 2,737.


How many times has this been defeated again?


OOC:
Enough.
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Omigodtheykilledkenny
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Postby Omigodtheykilledkenny » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:53 am

UED wrote:
The Candy Of Bottles wrote:
"Repeal "Reproductive Freedoms"" was defeated 12,642 votes to 2,737.


How many times has this been defeated again?

Three.

There were three against On Abortion too.
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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:28 pm

Crnechovania wrote:Brimlec Wilford had very good quote made of 1876: "Vla Vla ble baben chingchongen, hotentoten da go Vulvadosen poopenshooten" ("Take it up the Anus not the Vagina if you do not wish to have babies")

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