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Is Kim Jong-un the new Deng Xiaoping?

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Arumdaum
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Is Kim Jong-un the new Deng Xiaoping?

Postby Arumdaum » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:25 pm

North Korea has experimented with attempts at economic reform in the past, such as with the July 1st Measures in 2002 (under Kim Jong-il) and the June 28th Measures in 2013. For those who have been paying attention to North Korea, you may have noticed that in recent years North Korea has been trying to attract foreign investment. The newest measures, the May 30th Measures (from 2014), are the most comprehensive economic reform measures North Korea has ever had, and will begin to be implemented from this year with. With the end of the three-year mourning period for Kim Jong-il, now presents the official beginning of rule for Kim Jong-un.
Let’s remember that this isn’t something sudden and totally unexpected, and that North Korea has carried out its previous attempts for change in its economic policies, although the one in 2002 was somewhat rolled back (the measures in 2002 under Kim Jong-il weren’t as big as this though).

North Korea has a relatively large private sector (not entirely legal), with some estimates putting it at 50% of North Korea’s GDP. Private vendors can be found in the alleyways of cities, and are compared to ticks as even if one is taken down another one immediately replaces it.
Even real estate is doing good in North Korea, with a new monied middle class (call the donju) born from the North’s illicit private activity and officials vying to buy apartments in Sinuiju near the Chinese border.

The slogans which North Korea has published for the coming 70th anniversary of the end of WWII have a focus on improving people’s living standards and call for increased reconciliation with South Korea. Of course, this is unlikely to happen under the terms of a conservative president, as North Korea believes it’ll have a better deal with the election of a more liberal government like during the presidencies of Kim Daejung and Roh Moohyun.

The Choson Sinbo, an NK-affiliated newspaper in North Korea, has been recently calling the North’s economic style a “flexible collectivist system.” What was most notable to me in the phrase was the word “flexible.”

I’m interested what the consequences this will be for an eventual reunification. A greater North Korean presence in the global economy will inevitably mean greater economic integration with South Korea, considering the advantage which the common language and culture (sort of, like with food and traditional holidays) will put South Korean firms at in operating within North Korea.

Heck, Hallyu has already been establishing itself in North Korea. South Korean dramas, smuggled from China, are a hit in the North. South Korean songs, especially trot (but also those from dramas) are popular among North Koreans, including officials, who will sing them at karaoke while on business in China.

Greater integration into the global economy will also mean that NK will be increasingly pressed to end its more horrific human rights violations, particularly if it wants its recent measures to have greater success.

What I’m also interested in though, is how it compares to the economic liberalization of other countries such as Vietnam, China, Mongolia, and the former states of the Eastern Bloc.

If North Korea does it right, it’s sort of guaranteed to have high economic growth, considering its presence right between China, Japan, South Korea, and Russia, all major global economies. Planes would be able to fly over North Korean airspace and goods would be able to travel by rail through the country, causing South Korea to no longer be like an island. If an undersea tunnel is ever constructed between Japan and Korea, then Japan would also have greater connections to Eurasia.

For those who want more information on North Korea, information about the place is actually pretty easy to obtain. There are many news sites which have sections dedicated to North Korea, such as the English-language versions of major SK news sources (like Hankyoreh and Yonhap), nkeconwatch, dailynk, and NK News. There are also good books on North Korea that deal with things other than the horrors of the concentration camps, although I’ve yet to fully read any books on North Korea.

I made this post without wifi, so I haven’t been able to get the sources up or confirm that everything is exact. I’ll post those later. You can look it up if you’d like to. I did post some sources in the other thread, though.
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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:29 pm

We don't know how far this experimentation will go yet. He could be the next Deng Xiaoping, but I need some show of confidence building from him first, like trying to cooperate with South Korea.
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:31 pm

Deng opened up China to foreign investment, including investment from non-communist states and the US, hence why companies were beginning to establish themselves properly during the mid to late 1990's. Deng also didn't have the problems of dealing with a system that preached self-reliance and anti-Americanism.

Kim will essentially have to abandon Juche in order to fully take advantage of any kind of reforms that China saw under Deng.
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Arumdaum
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Postby Arumdaum » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:33 pm

Geilinor wrote:We don't know how far this experimentation will go yet. He could be the next Deng Xiaoping, but I need some show of confidence building from him first, like trying to cooperate with South Korea.

More specific details are available in the sources I gave in the other thread. We have a pretty good idea.

The North is trying to cooperate, but won't do so seriously until a more liberal government takes power, at the earliest 2018.
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Postby United Russian Soviet States » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:35 pm

He is the new Joseph Stalin.
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Arumdaum
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Postby Arumdaum » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:35 pm

United Russian Soviet States wrote:He is the new Joseph Stalin.

did u read the op lmao
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Postby Wanderjar » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:36 pm

The last time DPRK actually tried to encourage foreign investment to any serious degree was in the late 80s when they tried a form of maquiladora system. It ended in dismal failure when Kim Il Jung took power, flipped out, and took all the managers hostage after closing down the factories. Because, you know, he was batshit crazy. Shame too, could've made a ton of money considering that unlike the South, DPRK is resource rich. They've just never been able to monetize their uncultivated wealth.
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Authoritystan
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Postby Authoritystan » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:36 pm

Kim Jong-un's not planning on dying any time soon, it's not impossible but not very likely either.

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United Russian Soviet States
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Postby United Russian Soviet States » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:37 pm

Arumdaum wrote:
United Russian Soviet States wrote:He is the new Joseph Stalin.

did u read the op lmao

I did not.
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Wanderjar
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Postby Wanderjar » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:38 pm

United Russian Soviet States wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:did u read the op lmao

I did not.


At least he's honest. I admire that.
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The Dual Habsburg Kingdom and Afrikaner Free State of Wanderjar

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State President Michael Blair
Prime Minister Jan van Hoyek
Economic Left/Right: 9.00
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"And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my wrath upon them." Ezekiel 25:17

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Arumdaum
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Postby Arumdaum » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:40 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:Deng opened up China to foreign investment, including investment from non-communist states and the US, hence why companies were beginning to establish themselves properly during the mid to late 1990's. Deng also didn't have the problems of dealing with a system that preached self-reliance and anti-Americanism.

Kim will essentially have to abandon Juche in order to fully take advantage of any kind of reforms that China saw under Deng.

North Korea is opening itself up to foreign investment; IIRC KCNA recently said that North Korea is good to invest in.

Juche is intentionally vague; its interpretation changes with changes in policy.
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Postby Arumdaum » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:42 pm

Authoritystan wrote:Kim Jong-un's not planning on dying any time soon, it's not impossible but not very likely either.

What exactly is not very possible, and why?
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Greater Nevadian Empire
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Postby Greater Nevadian Empire » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:42 pm

Authoritystan wrote:Kim Jong-un's not planning on dying any time soon, it's not impossible but not very likely either.

He already is in bad health, seen walking with a cane this fall and has heart disease and type 2 diabetes.
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:43 pm

Arumdaum wrote:More specific details are available in the sources I gave in the other thread. We have a pretty good idea.

The North is trying to cooperate, but won't do so seriously until a more liberal government takes power, at the earliest 2018.


Why 2018 specifically?

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Postby Aenglaland » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:44 pm

If the private sector of best North Korea is not entirely legal, what's its actual status then? A "don't care/let it be" kind of approach from the government?
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Postby Gigaverse » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:45 pm

Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:More specific details are available in the sources I gave in the other thread. We have a pretty good idea.

The North is trying to cooperate, but won't do so seriously until a more liberal government takes power, at the earliest 2018.


Why 2018 specifically?

The year for a new election in SK.
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:45 pm

Arumdaum wrote:North Korea is opening itself up to foreign investment; IIRC KCNA recently said that North Korea is good to invest in.


If they could get their shit together even a little bit, the north would be great to invest in. Once you've hit rock bottom the only place to go is up.

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Postby Gigaverse » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:45 pm

Aenglaland wrote:If the private sector of best North Korea is not entirely legal, what's its actual status then? A "don't care/let it be" kind of approach from the government?

Exactly that.
Art-person(?). Japan liker. tired-ish.
Student in linguistics ???. On-and-off writer.
MAKE CAKE NOT stupidshiticanmakefunof.
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Postby Geilinor » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:45 pm

Arumdaum wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:Deng opened up China to foreign investment, including investment from non-communist states and the US, hence why companies were beginning to establish themselves properly during the mid to late 1990's. Deng also didn't have the problems of dealing with a system that preached self-reliance and anti-Americanism.

Kim will essentially have to abandon Juche in order to fully take advantage of any kind of reforms that China saw under Deng.

North Korea is opening itself up to foreign investment; IIRC KCNA recently said that North Korea is good to invest in.

Juche is intentionally vague; its interpretation changes with changes in policy.

If the private sector is still technically illegal, how can people invest?
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Arumdaum
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Postby Arumdaum » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:46 pm

Wanderjar wrote:The last time DPRK actually tried to encourage foreign investment to any serious degree was in the late 80s when they tried a form of maquiladora system. It ended in dismal failure when Kim Il Jung took power, flipped out, and took all the managers hostage after closing down the factories. Because, you know, he was batshit crazy. Shame too, could've made a ton of money considering that unlike the South, DPRK is resource rich. They've just never been able to monetize their uncultivated wealth.

Where'd you get this from?

I have a hard time taking this post seriously.
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Postby Arumdaum » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:47 pm

Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:More specific details are available in the sources I gave in the other thread. We have a pretty good idea.

The North is trying to cooperate, but won't do so seriously until a more liberal government takes power, at the earliest 2018.


Why 2018 specifically?

December 2017 election
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Postby Wanderjar » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:48 pm

Arumdaum wrote:
Wanderjar wrote:The last time DPRK actually tried to encourage foreign investment to any serious degree was in the late 80s when they tried a form of maquiladora system. It ended in dismal failure when Kim Il Jung took power, flipped out, and took all the managers hostage after closing down the factories. Because, you know, he was batshit crazy. Shame too, could've made a ton of money considering that unlike the South, DPRK is resource rich. They've just never been able to monetize their uncultivated wealth.

Where'd you get this from?

I have a hard time taking this post seriously.


It's pretty much the only thing I remember from a political economy class I took in college. It was in the textbook which I found odd since I'd never heard of it elsewhere, but hey I'm not the most knowledgeable person on NK's economy. Their military, I know a lot about. Their economic system, not so much. *shrug* It could've been in error, but I figured if the book said it, it was probably true.'

EDIT: What I do know for a fact is that NK is resource rich, and SK is not. NK by all means should be wealthier than the south, if they'd just get their shit together and drop this Juche crap and embrace capitalism like any rational country.
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Arumdaum
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Postby Arumdaum » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:48 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:North Korea is opening itself up to foreign investment; IIRC KCNA recently said that North Korea is good to invest in.

Juche is intentionally vague; its interpretation changes with changes in policy.

If the private sector is still technically illegal, how can people invest?

It's not.
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Arumdaum
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Postby Arumdaum » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:51 pm

Aenglaland wrote:If the private sector of best North Korea is not entirely legal, what's its actual status then? A "don't care/let it be" kind of approach from the government?

What I meant was that not all of the private activity taking place is entirely legal. Much of it's in a legal gray area.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:51 pm

Only time will tell.
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