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The Pope's Comments On Mockery Of Religion

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Yumyumsuppertime
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The Pope's Comments On Mockery Of Religion

Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:43 pm

Pope Francis pisses off some of his former fans.

Pope Francis has weighed into the debate over freedom of expression in the wake of the murderous attacks in Paris, saying that anyone who insults a religion can expect “a punch in the nose”.

In provocative remarks which may cause consternation in France, the Pope said that freedom of expression had its limits, especially if it involved insulting or ridiculing religion.

He made the forthright comments to journalists on board his official plane as he flew from Sri Lanka to the Philippines, the two stops on his week-long visit to Asia.

Gesturing towards Alberto Gasparri, a Vatican official who organises pontifical trips and who was standing next to him on board the plane, he said: “If my good friend Dr Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch in the nose.”

Throwing a pretend punch, the Pope said: “It’s normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.”

His remarks came a week after Islamic extremists stormed into the Paris offices of the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo and shot dead 12 members of staff, including some of its best known cartoonists, who for years had poked fun at Islam as well as other religions, including Christianity.

On Wednesday the magazine released a “survivors’ issue” which featured an image of the Prophet Mohammed on its front cover.
The edition also included highly provocative cartoons about the Catholic Church.

The Pope did not refer specifically to the magazine but said that insulting religions was unacceptable and dangerous.

“There are so many people who speak badly about religions or other religions, who make fun of them, who make a game out of the religions of others,” he said.

“They are provocateurs. And what happens to them is what would happen to Dr Gasparri if he says a curse word against my mother. There is a limit.”

The Pope in no way condoned the attack on Charlie Hebdo, insisting that violence carried out in God’s name was “an aberration.”
“One cannot make war [or] kill in the name of one’s own religion, that is, in the name of God.”

But those who ridiculed another religion should expect some sort of reaction, he said.


I actually get what he's saying, and while I might not have phrased it in that manner, there is some sense to it (Despite Bill Maher's overreaction).

Yes, Pope Francis said that you can't make fun of someone's religion without expecting a negative reaction. He even said that someone insulting religion could probably expect a punch in the nose from a follower, much as he'd punch his dear friend if his friend insulted his mother.
Note that he did not say that there should be laws against such speech, or that there was no inherent right to free speech of any sort. Instead, he simply observed that, right or wrong, you could expect a violent reaction if you insulted the beliefs of an especially fervent follower.

This is a fact of life. You can't walk into a bar of mostly black people and start telling racist jokes about them (at least as a white person) without expecting a negative reaction. You can't walk into a JDL meeting and talk approvingly about the "Final Solution" without expecting a physical response. You can't walk into a bar in the heart of Alabama and talk about how Lincoln's only fault was that he didn't immediately order the hangings of Lee and Davis and walk away without a blemish or scratch. And you can't make fun of someone's deeply held religious beliefs without being prepared for a contrasting viewpoint, perhaps one carried on the end of a fist.

This doesn't make the violent reaction right, only predictable as a response to a rude comment.

On the other hand, if you have anything to say about my Unitarian Universalist religion, write it up and I'll submit it to committee, and they'll ask to meet with you to share their thoughts, questions, and concerns in a constructive, holistic, non-confrontational environment.

Thoughts?

Oh, and I should note that any response implying that the Pope suggesting or implying that the Pope somehow stated that religious terrorism was acceptable, or that there should be anti-blasphemy laws, will be met with the same sort of mockery that he was talking about.
You'll realize that a punch would have been gentle in comparison.
Last edited by Yumyumsuppertime on Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Seraven
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Postby Seraven » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:55 pm

This doesn't make the violent reaction right, only predictable as a response to a rude comment.


It's true it doesn't make the violent reaction right, but violent reaction is the one that will be done a lot more than harsh response.
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Postby Daizhou » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:55 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:On the other hand, if you have anything to say about my Unitarian Universalist religion, write it up and I'll submit it to committee, and they'll ask to meet with you to share their thoughts, questions, and concerns in a constructive, holistic, non-confrontational environment.

A Unitarian conception of god is unphilosophical, it reduces God to an atom.

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Postby Red Fury » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:57 pm

Well, yeah. If you tell someone they look stupid they'll probably be offended. Take it to a personal level and shit gets even more complicated. I'm not saying that the attackers were right; I'm saying the press was fucking stupid. There are lines that must be drawn.

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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:57 pm

Daizhou wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:On the other hand, if you have anything to say about my Unitarian Universalist religion, write it up and I'll submit it to committee, and they'll ask to meet with you to share their thoughts, questions, and concerns in a constructive, holistic, non-confrontational environment.

A Unitarian conception of god is unphilosophical, it reduces God to an atom.


Right, I'm submitting that to the committee right away. You'll be hearing from them once they get back from their conference on institutional racism in ecclesiastical power structures.

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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:57 pm

Image


Not to condone the attack, but at least these militants attacked the source of their anger. Usually they get angry at a cartoonist and blow up a school or some shit.
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Postby Sun Wukong » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:58 pm

Disgusting.

Not in any way surprising, the Vatican always takes the wrong stance on this, but the underlying message: that religion deserves some special privilege and is entitled to physical violence in response to criticism, And in the wake of such travesty, and in such a trivializing tone....

Disgusting.
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Postby TotallyNotEvilLand » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:00 am

I'm really starting to like this pope. I hope he stays at the job for a long while.
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Postby NERVUN » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:00 am

I get what he's saying, I think we've gotten into this mindset where it's not only "You've not right to NOT be offended" but into a "I'm gonna try my best to offend you (and then claim injury)".

But this is gonna get people's nose out of joint.
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:00 am

Red Fury wrote:Well, yeah. If you tell someone they look stupid they'll probably be offended. Take it to a personal level and shit gets even more complicated. I'm not saying that the attackers were right; I'm saying the press was fucking stupid. There are lines that must be drawn.


I'm not sure that I'd put it like that, exactly. I do think that while we all have the right to be as insulting as we wish to the sacred beliefs of others, it's not necessarily the right thing to do. The problem with Charlie Hebdo is that this is where it does get complicated, and where people will start mocking the Prophet just to prove a point about freedom of speech.

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Postby Seraven » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:01 am

TotallyNotEvilLand wrote:I'm really starting to like this pope. I hope he stays at the job for a long while.


He already at the job for awhile now.
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The Alma Mater wrote:
Seraven wrote:I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.

An excellent example of why allowing unrestricted immigration of people with a very different culture might not be the best idea ever :P

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Postby TotallyNotEvilLand » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:02 am

Seraven wrote:
TotallyNotEvilLand wrote:I'm really starting to like this pope. I hope he stays at the job for a long while.


He already at the job for awhile now.

A longer while, rather.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:04 am

I believe in free speech but don't make fun of my religion.

Sorry, respectful speech is not free speech. Your faith is weak if you have to resort to violence.
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Postby Idzequitch » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:04 am

No, you don't have the right to physically punch anyone who insults your religious beliefs. The number of situations where you have the right to physically harm someone is extremely limited, and this isn't one of them. That said, it's rather silly to insult someone's beliefs and not expect a negative reaction.
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Postby Red Fury » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:05 am

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Red Fury wrote:Well, yeah. If you tell someone they look stupid they'll probably be offended. Take it to a personal level and shit gets even more complicated. I'm not saying that the attackers were right; I'm saying the press was fucking stupid. There are lines that must be drawn.


I'm not sure that I'd put it like that, exactly. I do think that while we all have the right to be as insulting as we wish to the sacred beliefs of others, it's not necessarily the right thing to do. The problem with Charlie Hebdo is that this is where it does get complicated, and where people will start mocking the Prophet just to prove a point about freedom of speech.


I have no sympathy. It's not complicated at all. The Muslims of Europe have been persecuted since they got there. This has been a long time coming. Muslims face discrimination at every bend (we all know the famous burqa ban) and yet that is not enough for some.

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:05 am

<Insert religion here> is stupid and childish. Someone punch me plz.

On a more serious note, no just because someone insulted your religious beliefs you do not have a reason to assault them.
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Postby Olivaero » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:05 am

I kinda get what he's saying. I don't really get bent out of shape about religion but there are a few capitalists out their who should be glad I'm a very peaceful person when they talk utter shit about the left. I might never actually punch one in the face but I sure feel like doing so, just like I'm sure the pope wouldn't actually punch someone in the face for talking shit about religion. The comment was meant to make a point in my opinion not be literal but like that is going to make anyone who wants to see the worst in religion take it as not.
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Postby Red Fury » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:06 am

Idzequitch wrote:No, you don't have the right to physically punch anyone who insults your religious beliefs. The number of situations where you have the right to physically harm someone is extremely limited, and this isn't one of them. That said, it's rather silly to insult someone's beliefs and not expect a negative reaction.

You have to understand that they are not just insulting someone's religion. Unlike the privileged white folk of America and Europe; being visibly Arab means being viewed as Muslim. Racism is a huge factor into this.

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Postby Red Fury » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:07 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:<Insert religion here> is stupid and childish. Someone punch me plz.

On a more serious note, no just because someone insulted your religious beliefs you do not have a reason to assault them.


This goes beyond what we would think of insult. This is the equivalent of someone drawing a picture of Jesus having gay sex with Satan.

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Postby Idzequitch » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:07 am

Red Fury wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
I'm not sure that I'd put it like that, exactly. I do think that while we all have the right to be as insulting as we wish to the sacred beliefs of others, it's not necessarily the right thing to do. The problem with Charlie Hebdo is that this is where it does get complicated, and where people will start mocking the Prophet just to prove a point about freedom of speech.


I have no sympathy. It's not complicated at all. The Muslims of Europe have been persecuted since they got there. This has been a long time coming. Muslims face discrimination at every bend (we all know the famous burqa ban) and yet that is not enough for some.

Whether you truly hold that position or not, there is still no excuse for killing people, or physically harming them in any way, really. Even if you don't believe them to be innocent people, there's no excuse for murder or assault.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:08 am

Red Fury wrote:
Idzequitch wrote:No, you don't have the right to physically punch anyone who insults your religious beliefs. The number of situations where you have the right to physically harm someone is extremely limited, and this isn't one of them. That said, it's rather silly to insult someone's beliefs and not expect a negative reaction.

You have to understand that they are not just insulting someone's religion. Unlike the privileged white folk of America and Europe; being visibly Arab means being viewed as Muslim. Racism is a huge factor into this.


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Postby Red Fury » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:08 am

The Black Forrest wrote:I believe in free speech but don't make fun of my religion.

Sorry, respectful speech is not free speech. Your faith is weak if you have to resort to violence.


In a country where individuals cannot wear their religious garments since they have been outlawed you need to look at the bigger picture.

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:08 am

Red Fury wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:<Insert religion here> is stupid and childish. Someone punch me plz.

On a more serious note, no just because someone insulted your religious beliefs you do not have a reason to assault them.


This goes beyond what we would think of insult. This is the equivalent of someone drawing a picture of Jesus having gay sex with Satan.


Okay? And? Plenty of pictures like that already exist, it doesn't hurt you in any way whatsoever and it sure as shit doesn't give you the right to attack people.
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Postby Red Fury » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:09 am

Idzequitch wrote:
Red Fury wrote:
I have no sympathy. It's not complicated at all. The Muslims of Europe have been persecuted since they got there. This has been a long time coming. Muslims face discrimination at every bend (we all know the famous burqa ban) and yet that is not enough for some.

Whether you truly hold that position or not, there is still no excuse for killing people, or physically harming them in any way, really. Even if you don't believe them to be innocent people, there's no excuse for murder or assault.


There is a time for violence. Without violence we end up with another situation like Tibet. The world is built on the bones of the weak. It ain't pretty, but it's reality. Fight back before you are trampled.

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Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:09 am

Red Fury wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:<Insert religion here> is stupid and childish. Someone punch me plz.

On a more serious note, no just because someone insulted your religious beliefs you do not have a reason to assault them.


This goes beyond what we would think of insult. This is the equivalent of someone drawing a picture of Jesus having gay sex with Satan.


And?

I didn't feel the need to go kill the artist for crappy artwork(well when I followed the Religion that is)......
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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