Vulture Capitalism and Extortion of Countries

[Calimera II]

Vulture Capitalism and Extortion of Countries

---

I wasn't really sure how to name this thread, so I decided to go for 'Vulture Capitalism and Extortion of Countries'. I don't want to focus only on Argentina's case, but on the issue in general, using Argentina as an example. There are more countries in the world that encounter(ed) this problem, which I call 'vulture capitalism'.
So basically, Argentina began a process of debt restructuring on January 14, 2005, that allowed it to resume payment on the majority of the US$82 billion in sovereign bonds that defaulted in 2002 at the depth of the worst economic crisis in the country's history. A second debt restructuring in 2010 brought the percentage of bonds out of default to 93%. Bondholders who participated in the restructuring, accepted repayments of around 30% of face value and deferred payment terms, and began to be paid punctually; the value of their bonds also began to rise. The remaining 7% of bondholders later won the right to be repaid in full. This 7% are only a few enormous bondholders, like Paul Singer, an American hedge fund manager. Forbes rated Singer's net worth at $1.9 billion. Vulture Capitalists like Paul Singer, are trying to bring Argentina's debt restructuring down: they won a lawsuit in the United States, and the judge said that all bondholders should be repaid in full. This scenario would have destroyed Argentina: economically and socially. That's why the Argentine government has taken the following stance:

''The government will not allow any “extortion” with Argentina having a clear strategy of “dialogue” and “fair negotiations” in its long-standing dispute with so called "vulture funds" suing the country over its defaulted Bonds.' (...) We are not willing to (tolerate) extortions of no nature by creditors that have been privileged by an embarrassing sentence, creating a generalised condemnation from the judicial universe at international levels.''

People like Paul Singer, gathered in the American Task Force Argentina (a very powerful American lobby group against Argentina), are lobbying against Argentina to get 'their' money from the Argentine government. One of the ways they use to achieve their goal is by using smear campaigns against the Argentine government.

I find it absolutely disgraceful that these people have the ability to bring a sovereign country down. Vulture Capitalism is absolutely disgusting, and people like Paul Singer should be ashamed of themselves. I would like to know your opinion, what do you think about this?

[Riuchen]

Argentina has been the victim of disgusting pigs who only care about money. It is a pity that these vulture capitalists can operate in the modern world.

[Geilinor]

Argentina now has the funds to pay most of its debts, nobody is trying to bring it down.

[Calimera II]

Argentina now has the funds to pay most of its debts, nobody is trying to bring it down.

The American Task Force Argentina is a destabilising factor for Argentina's economy and government. The amount of propaganda is really incredible. Argentina is actually still paying it's debt, but not under the ridiculously high demands of the vulture capitalists.
What would happen if Argentina payed the full amount to 100% of the bondholders? Argentina would default again (the last default was a selectice default that didn't change a lot), and millions of people would be plunged into poverty.

[AiliailiA]

The question of whether a sovereign nation is obliged to pay debts it incurred is rather tricky. Is Argentina bound by any treaty to do so?

I think for bankrupticies in general, all creditors should be bound to the same terms the majority of them agree to. Particularly when the 'majority' account for over 80% of the debt as in this case. If 30 cents in the dollar is all the bankrupt party can pay, one creditor demanding full payment steals from all the other creditors.

[Dejanic]

Argentina now has the funds to pay most of its debts, nobody is trying to bring it down.

The American Task Force Argentina is a destabilising factor for Argentina's economy and government. The amount of propaganda is really incredible. Argentina is actually still paying it's debt, but not under the ridiculously high demands of the vulture capitalists.
What would happen if Argentina payed the full amount to 100% of the bondholders? Argentina would default again (the last default was a selectice default that didn't change a lot), and millions of people would be plunged into poverty.

You reap what you sow. You call yourself a supporter of free market Capitalism, yet you oppose it when it suits you?

[New Stinkonia]

Paul Singer should be ashamed of himself? I can assure you he's very proud of himself.

[Calimera II]

The American Task Force Argentina is a destabilising factor for Argentina's economy and government. The amount of propaganda is really incredible. Argentina is actually still paying it's debt, but not under the ridiculously high demands of the vulture capitalists.
What would happen if Argentina payed the full amount to 100% of the bondholders? Argentina would default again (the last default was a selectice default that didn't change a lot), and millions of people would be plunged into poverty.

You reap what you sow. You call yourself a supporter of free market Capitalism, yet you oppose it when it suits you?

I support Capitalism. I don't support Vulture Capitalism.

[Shofercia]

Argentina now has the funds to pay most of its debts, nobody is trying to bring it down.

They are. They're refusing to accept debt restructuring, which is the only way that Argentina can recover and repay its debt. Otherwise they're giving Argentina a choice to either recover slowly, or not recover at all. Here's "raging communist" John Oliver on the situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DnGOukmEIE

[Olivaero]

Vulture Capitalism and Extortion of Countries

---

I wasn't really sure how to name this thread, so I decided to go for 'Vulture Capitalism and Extortion of Countries'. I don't want to focus only on Argentina's case, but on the issue in general, using Argentina as an example. There are more countries in the world that encounter(ed) this problem, which I call 'vulture capitalism'.
So basically, Argentina began a process of debt restructuring on January 14, 2005, that allowed it to resume payment on the majority of the US$82 billion in sovereign bonds that defaulted in 2002 at the depth of the worst economic crisis in the country's history. A second debt restructuring in 2010 brought the percentage of bonds out of default to 93%. Bondholders who participated in the restructuring, accepted repayments of around 30% of face value and deferred payment terms, and began to be paid punctually; the value of their bonds also began to rise. The remaining 7% of bondholders later won the right to be repaid in full. This 7% are only a few enormous bondholders, like Paul Singer, an American hedge fund manager. Forbes rated Singer's net worth at $1.9 billion. Vulture Capitalists like Paul Singer, are trying to bring Argentina's debt restructuring down: they won a lawsuit in the United States, and the judge said that all bondholders should be repaid in full. This scenario would have destroyed Argentina: economically and socially. That's why the Argentine government has taken the following stance:

''The government will not allow any “extortion” with Argentina having a clear strategy of “dialogue” and “fair negotiations” in its long-standing dispute with so called "vulture funds" suing the country over its defaulted Bonds.' (...) We are not willing to (tolerate) extortions of no nature by creditors that have been privileged by an embarrassing sentence, creating a generalised condemnation from the judicial universe at international levels.''

People like Paul Singer, gathered in the American Task Force Argentina (a very powerful American lobby group against Argentina), are lobbying against Argentina to get 'their' money from the Argentine government. One of the ways they use to achieve their goal is by using smear campaigns against the Argentine government.

I find it absolutely disgraceful that these people have the ability to bring a sovereign country down. Vulture Capitalism is absolutely disgusting, and people like Paul Singer should be ashamed of themselves. I would like to know your opinion, what do you think about this?

Aren't you a capitalist Calimera? These vultures are a natural product of really any system that allows for accumulation of wealth/power billionaires are going to have way more political clout than people who aren't billionaires because money is all important. And they aren't all "nice" billionaires like Bill Gates.

[Quintium]

The problem with Argentina is that it thinks it's entitled to borrow indefinitely and never pay anything back. It's a lot like Greece. I never heard anyone complain when the loans were funding roads, parks, government buildings, sports tournaments and equipment for the army and navy. When it's going right, everyone tells the government to keep borrowing and the people providing the capital are idolized. But when it goes wrong, the exact same people who knowingly and willingly built their house on quicksand start complaining about the quicksand. Stop blaming 'vulture capitalists' and start blaming yourself. There are about two hundred governments in the world that haven't messed up this badly, even though they were borrowing from the same 'vulture capitalists'.

[Calimera II]

The problem with Argentina is that it thinks it's entitled to borrow indefinitely and never pay anything back. It's a lot like Greece. I never heard anyone complain when the loans were funding roads, parks, government buildings, sports tournaments and equipment for the army and navy. When it's going right, everyone tells the government to keep borrowing and the people providing the capital are idolized. But when it goes wrong, the exact same people who knowingly and willingly built their house on quicksand start complaining about the quicksand. Stop blaming 'vulture capitalists' and start blaming yourself. There are about two hundred governments in the world that haven't messed up this badly, even though they were borrowing from the same 'vulture capitalists'.

Argentina is paying back its debt. Your argument is invalid.

By the way:
The "200 countries in the world" aren't borrowing from Vulture Capitalists. Vulture Capitalists like Paul Singer buy bonds in countries that are in the middle of an enormous financial crisis, to make profit (up to 1000%).

[Zakuvia]

Though I'm still nebulous on the issue, I do applaud you for actually putting a human's face on this. If you'd just mentioned his hedge fund, I would have ignored this thread. With a real billionaire, I can start to feel something other than apathetic.

As far as the issue itself? I'm a little torn. I'm very Darwinian when it comes to these things, and I'm not concerned when people bite off more than they can chew and then choke on it. Yes, this means I'm also ambivalent about US debt, but that's the price of having convictions. If this fund was originally entitled to these moneys when they signed the agreements with the Argentinian government, then they are entitled to them, whether or not Argentina makes mistakes later on that makes paying for them difficult. There are people who invested in these funds who are going to be out as well if the fund defaults, and it's Singer's job to see they get their due. Now, are these people as badly off as the people who will be in poverty in Argentina? Of course not, and it's a strawman to say that I don't see and respect that. But fair deals are fair deals, even if you're already well off.

[Olivaero]

You reap what you sow. You call yourself a supporter of free market Capitalism, yet you oppose it when it suits you?

I support Capitalism. I don't support Vulture Capitalism.

It always amuses me when capitalists try and spin a natural consequence of capitalism as "X Capitalism" which they paint as some type of aberrant non pure brand of the ideology. In a system where the amount of power you have is modified by the amount of money you have corruption and unethical practices will always occur because sociopaths and narcissists exist.

[Islamic State of UKIP]

If the vultures don't want to accept restructuring then they don't get payments. What they did was an act of terrorism that helped destroy the entire world economy, they should take their losses and be glad a drone hasn't dropped a bomb on their house. They are lucky to be alive after such a massive terrorist attack. they should be fucking grateful.

[Greed and Death]

Vulture Capitalism and Extortion of Countries

---

I wasn't really sure how to name this thread, so I decided to go for 'Vulture Capitalism and Extortion of Countries'. I don't want to focus only on Argentina's case, but on the issue in general, using Argentina as an example. There are more countries in the world that encounter(ed) this problem, which I call 'vulture capitalism'.
So basically, Argentina began a process of debt restructuring on January 14, 2005, that allowed it to resume payment on the majority of the US$82 billion in sovereign bonds that defaulted in 2002 at the depth of the worst economic crisis in the country's history. A second debt restructuring in 2010 brought the percentage of bonds out of default to 93%. Bondholders who participated in the restructuring, accepted repayments of around 30% of face value and deferred payment terms, and began to be paid punctually; the value of their bonds also began to rise. The remaining 7% of bondholders later won the right to be repaid in full. This 7% are only a few enormous bondholders, like Paul Singer, an American hedge fund manager. Forbes rated Singer's net worth at $1.9 billion. Vulture Capitalists like Paul Singer, are trying to bring Argentina's debt restructuring down: they won a lawsuit in the United States, and the judge said that all bondholders should be repaid in full. This scenario would have destroyed Argentina: economically and socially. That's why the Argentine government has taken the following stance:

''The government will not allow any “extortion” with Argentina having a clear strategy of “dialogue” and “fair negotiations” in its long-standing dispute with so called "vulture funds" suing the country over its defaulted Bonds.' (...) We are not willing to (tolerate) extortions of no nature by creditors that have been privileged by an embarrassing sentence, creating a generalised condemnation from the judicial universe at international levels.''

People like Paul Singer, gathered in the American Task Force Argentina (a very powerful American lobby group against Argentina), are lobbying against Argentina to get 'their' money from the Argentine government. One of the ways they use to achieve their goal is by using smear campaigns against the Argentine government.

I find it absolutely disgraceful that these people have the ability to bring a sovereign country down. Vulture Capitalism is absolutely disgusting, and people like Paul Singer should be ashamed of themselves. I would like to know your opinion, what do you think about this?

So let me get this straight ? Argentina lost a court case about contractual rights in a contract that Argentina wrote ( that is what a government bond essentially is) and the winning side is the vulture.

Argentina made an agreement why is making someone fulfill their agreement so bad ?

[Shofercia]

Vulture Capitalism and Extortion of Countries

---

I wasn't really sure how to name this thread, so I decided to go for 'Vulture Capitalism and Extortion of Countries'. I don't want to focus only on Argentina's case, but on the issue in general, using Argentina as an example. There are more countries in the world that encounter(ed) this problem, which I call 'vulture capitalism'.
So basically, Argentina began a process of debt restructuring on January 14, 2005, that allowed it to resume payment on the majority of the US$82 billion in sovereign bonds that defaulted in 2002 at the depth of the worst economic crisis in the country's history. A second debt restructuring in 2010 brought the percentage of bonds out of default to 93%. Bondholders who participated in the restructuring, accepted repayments of around 30% of face value and deferred payment terms, and began to be paid punctually; the value of their bonds also began to rise. The remaining 7% of bondholders later won the right to be repaid in full. This 7% are only a few enormous bondholders, like Paul Singer, an American hedge fund manager. Forbes rated Singer's net worth at $1.9 billion. Vulture Capitalists like Paul Singer, are trying to bring Argentina's debt restructuring down: they won a lawsuit in the United States, and the judge said that all bondholders should be repaid in full. This scenario would have destroyed Argentina: economically and socially. That's why the Argentine government has taken the following stance:

''The government will not allow any “extortion” with Argentina having a clear strategy of “dialogue” and “fair negotiations” in its long-standing dispute with so called "vulture funds" suing the country over its defaulted Bonds.' (...) We are not willing to (tolerate) extortions of no nature by creditors that have been privileged by an embarrassing sentence, creating a generalised condemnation from the judicial universe at international levels.''

People like Paul Singer, gathered in the American Task Force Argentina (a very powerful American lobby group against Argentina), are lobbying against Argentina to get 'their' money from the Argentine government. One of the ways they use to achieve their goal is by using smear campaigns against the Argentine government.

I find it absolutely disgraceful that these people have the ability to bring a sovereign country down. Vulture Capitalism is absolutely disgusting, and people like Paul Singer should be ashamed of themselves. I would like to know your opinion, what do you think about this?

So let me get this straight ? Argentina lost a court case about contractual rights in a contract that Argentina wrote ( that is what a government bond essentially is) and the winning side is the vulture.

Argentina made an agreement why is making someone fulfill their agreement so bad ?

Because, in this case, the few are hurting tens of millions of people.

[AiliailiA]

It seems Argentina deliberately brought the debt restructuring into US jurisdiction (specifically, NY jurisdiction). Then screwed up the contract by including a pari passu clause but no collective action clause.

Should have hired better lawyers hmm?

[New Stinkonia]

If the vultures don't want to accept restructuring then they don't get payments. What they did was an act of terrorism that helped destroy the entire world economy, they should take their losses and be glad a drone hasn't dropped a bomb on their house. They are lucky to be alive after such a massive terrorist attack. they should be fucking grateful.

All but one of the investors Argentina owed accepted the restructuring of the debt. The ones that didn't are the ones that sued.

[Calimera II]

Vulture Capitalism and Extortion of Countries

---

I wasn't really sure how to name this thread, so I decided to go for 'Vulture Capitalism and Extortion of Countries'. I don't want to focus only on Argentina's case, but on the issue in general, using Argentina as an example. There are more countries in the world that encounter(ed) this problem, which I call 'vulture capitalism'.
So basically, Argentina began a process of debt restructuring on January 14, 2005, that allowed it to resume payment on the majority of the US$82 billion in sovereign bonds that defaulted in 2002 at the depth of the worst economic crisis in the country's history. A second debt restructuring in 2010 brought the percentage of bonds out of default to 93%. Bondholders who participated in the restructuring, accepted repayments of around 30% of face value and deferred payment terms, and began to be paid punctually; the value of their bonds also began to rise. The remaining 7% of bondholders later won the right to be repaid in full. This 7% are only a few enormous bondholders, like Paul Singer, an American hedge fund manager. Forbes rated Singer's net worth at $1.9 billion. Vulture Capitalists like Paul Singer, are trying to bring Argentina's debt restructuring down: they won a lawsuit in the United States, and the judge said that all bondholders should be repaid in full. This scenario would have destroyed Argentina: economically and socially. That's why the Argentine government has taken the following stance:

''The government will not allow any “extortion” with Argentina having a clear strategy of “dialogue” and “fair negotiations” in its long-standing dispute with so called "vulture funds" suing the country over its defaulted Bonds.' (...) We are not willing to (tolerate) extortions of no nature by creditors that have been privileged by an embarrassing sentence, creating a generalised condemnation from the judicial universe at international levels.''

People like Paul Singer, gathered in the American Task Force Argentina (a very powerful American lobby group against Argentina), are lobbying against Argentina to get 'their' money from the Argentine government. One of the ways they use to achieve their goal is by using smear campaigns against the Argentine government.

I find it absolutely disgraceful that these people have the ability to bring a sovereign country down. Vulture Capitalism is absolutely disgusting, and people like Paul Singer should be ashamed of themselves. I would like to know your opinion, what do you think about this?

So let me get this straight ? Argentina lost a court case about contractual rights in a contract that Argentina wrote ( that is what a government bond essentially is) and the winning side is the vulture.

Argentina made an agreement why is making someone fulfill their agreement so bad ?

Because a billionaire, bringing a deal signed by 93% of the bondholders down is immoral and bad. Making a 1000% profit by bankrupting a country once again is bad. Elliott has basically said "No we don't want to negotiate, we want a 1000% profit, and by the way: let the Argentines fuck themselves."

Argentina will never recover when Vulture Capitalists like Paul Singer continuously lobby against Argentina and bring the country down. I recommend you to do your own little research on The American Task Force Argentina. Paul Singer has done the same in Mexico, Peru and Congo, but in those countries it wasn't about billions of dollars.

[Islamic State of UKIP]

If the vultures don't want to accept restructuring then they don't get payments. What they did was an act of terrorism that helped destroy the entire world economy, they should take their losses and be glad a drone hasn't dropped a bomb on their house. They are lucky to be alive after such a massive terrorist attack. they should be fucking grateful.

All but one of the investors Argentina owed accepted the restructuring of the debt. The ones that didn't are the ones that sued.

And they need to have their day in court. Argentina needs to charge them for their crimes.

[Great Nepal]

Because a billionaire, bringing a deal signed by 93% of the bondholders down is immoral and bad. Making a 1000% profit by bankrupting a country once again is bad. Elliott has basically said "No we don't want to negotiate, we want a 1000% profit, and by the way: let the Argentines fuck themselves."

Argentina will never recover when Vulture Capitalists like Paul Singer continuously lobby against Argentina and bring the country down. I recommend you to do your own little research on The American Task Force Argentina. Paul Singer has done the same in Mexico, Peru and Congo, but in those countries it wasn't about billions of dollars.

Frankly, tough shit. You sign a contract you have to honour it, if you didn't want one person to have veto power on debt restructuring should have added a clause that prevented that. If you wanted one person to step out without bring down rest of the bondholders, should have added a clause which allowed that.

[Greed and Death]

It seems Argentina deliberately brought the debt restructuring into US jurisdiction (specifically, NY jurisdiction). Then screwed up the contract by including a pari passu clause but no collective action clause.

Should have hired better lawyers hmm?

They had a collective action clause but Bonds buyers wanted a higher interest rate given the risk of restructuring, that Argentina did not want to pay so collective action was removed.

[New Stinkonia]

So let me get this straight ? Argentina lost a court case about contractual rights in a contract that Argentina wrote ( that is what a government bond essentially is) and the winning side is the vulture.

Argentina made an agreement why is making someone fulfill their agreement so bad ?

Nope. It was not in the contract to pay back original value of defaulted bonds. The smear campaign is about promoting that illusion.

[AiliailiA]

If the vultures don't want to accept restructuring then they don't get payments. What they did was an act of terrorism that helped destroy the entire world economy, they should take their losses and be glad a drone hasn't dropped a bomb on their house. They are lucky to be alive after such a massive terrorist attack. they should be fucking grateful.

All but one of the investors Argentina owed accepted the restructuring of the debt. The ones that didn't are the ones that sued.

And that wouldn't be disastrous. Arguably very unfair (between creditors) but probably affordable for Argentina.

But there's the pari passu clause. It obliges Argentina to treat all parties equally so IF the holdouts are repayed in full all the other creditors are entitled to the same. Argentina can't afford that.