A+E boss says target the drunks

[Portomellow]

Police should crack down on binge drinking to stop hospital staff becoming distracted by disorderly drunks, a leading doctor has said.

Dr Clifford Mann, president of the College of Emergency Medicine, said a "softer approach" adopted by police "doesn't seem to be working".

A&E staff have to deal with disorderly patients on a "daily" basis, he added.

Dr Mann said police could deal with anti-social drunkenness with increased arrests, convictions and fines.

Speaking to the BBC, Dr Mann said intoxicated patients could be arrested for being drunk and disorderly if they cause problems in hospitals.

"All I am saying at the moment is the softer approach - where we don't any longer arrest many people for being drunk and disorderly - certainly doesn't seem to be working," he said.

Dr Mann said the number of people arriving at A&E units while drunk was increasing year on year, while the number of licensed premises in the UK was also increasing and alcohol was getting cheaper.

"I think these people, by the nature of the disorder, they are distracting medical and nursing staff from looking after other patients and therefore are wasting public resources.

"I think they therefore fall into the category of being drunk and disorderly in their behaviour and the police can act to take them away," he added.

'Too simplistic'
In a separate interview with the Observer, Dr Mann said that if more people knew that if they got drunk they would be arrested, then fewer would drink too much in the first place.

There is "far too much acceptance" that drunkenness is "normal for a Friday or Saturday night", he said, adding: "It's not normal. It shouldn't be normal."

A&E
Responding to Dr Mann, the Police Federation of England and Wales told the Observer the suggestion was "simplistic" and would lead to an unrealistic drain on police time.

"Forces up and down the country regularly have campaigns to tackle drunk and disorderly behaviour," the chairman of the Police Federation - which represents rank and file officers - Steve White said.

"Alcohol is well known to be a contributory factor in incidents of disorder but it is a complex issue and a crackdown on troublesome drunks is too simplistic an answer," he added.

He said "hauling people through the courts isn't always the answer either".

"That takes valuable time and resources to process, not just for the police, but also as people go through the courts and criminal justice system."

I'm on board with this to be honest. Any individual who ends up in an A+E department purely because of being incapable while drunk should be automatically charged with being drunk and disorderly. I don't really buy into this hand waving excuse that targeting crime is a bad idea because we would have to process the criminals. The police in this matter are simply washing their hands of things and abandoning hospital staff out of pure laziness. Thoughts?

[Lordieth]

Can't argue with this. Drunks waste A&E's time that could be better spent on dealing with more serious cases. Unless you're suffering from alcohol poisoning, all you need is a room to lay your head, and a bucket.

[Shilya]

Can't agree with it. If it's legal to drink, it should also be legal to be drunk. It doesn't make sense to allow something but ban its logical consequence.

If he's worried about public resources, how about slapping a higher tax on alcohol to fund more resources with?

[The Huskar Social Union]

Can't argue with this. Drunks waste A&E's time that could be better spent on dealing with more serious cases. Unless you're suffering from alcohol poisoning, all you need is a room to lay your head, and a bucket.

I agree with this. Dont agree with charging them though unless they cause serious issues like assaulting someone etc

[Portomellow]

Can't argue with this. Drunks waste A&E's time that could be better spent on dealing with more serious cases. Unless you're suffering from alcohol poisoning, all you need is a room to lay your head, and a bucket.

I agree with this. Dont agree with charging them though unless they cause serious issues like assaulting someone etc

Or blocking valuable medical resources and impairing the service for those in need?

They're putting others in danger because of their behaviour. A criminal charge is more than appropriate

[Lordieth]

Can't agree with it. If it's legal to drink, it should also be legal to be drunk. It doesn't make sense to allow something but ban its logical consequence.

If he's worried about public resources, how about slapping a higher tax on alcohol to fund more resources with?

Which punishes the drinkers who are responsible and aren't a drain on public resources. The problem is that we have a free NHS, so you can't fine people for wasting NHS time. If you can't arrest them either, then what can you do? Hospitals have a duty of care, so it's not as easy as saying they can just turn people away.

I sympathise with A&E staff here. They have a really difficult job, and there's not much they can do about this without higher intervention. Drunk and disorderly conduct is the closest thing that makes sense, although I think a better option would be taking away responsibility from those who drink irresponsibly.

[Portomellow]

Can't agree with it. If it's legal to drink, it should also be legal to be drunk. It doesn't make sense to allow something but ban its logical consequence.

If he's worried about public resources, how about slapping a higher tax on alcohol to fund more resources with?

The logical consequence of having alcohol legal isn't being drunk and incapable. That kind of permissive viewpoint already pervades the UK more than enough.

[Shilya]

I agree with this. Dont agree with charging them though unless they cause serious issues like assaulting someone etc

Or blocking valuable medical resources and impairing the service for those in need?

They're putting others in danger because of their behaviour. A criminal charge is more than appropriate

A criminal charge wastes more money than the guy could possibly have wasted being drunk. If you're worried about patients getting their care, use that money to hire another nurse instead.

[Lordieth]

Can't argue with this. Drunks waste A&E's time that could be better spent on dealing with more serious cases. Unless you're suffering from alcohol poisoning, all you need is a room to lay your head, and a bucket.

I agree with this. Dont agree with charging them though unless they cause serious issues like assaulting someone etc

What happened to the drunk tanks? It was on the news a couple of years ago. If someone was being drunk and disorderly, you put them in a drunk tank to sober up. They need to roll these out around the country.

[Portomellow]

Or blocking valuable medical resources and impairing the service for those in need?

They're putting others in danger because of their behaviour. A criminal charge is more than appropriate

A criminal charge wastes more money than the guy could possibly have wasted being drunk. If you're worried about patients getting their care, use that money to hire another nurse instead.

Short term pain for long term gain

[The Huskar Social Union]

I agree with this. Dont agree with charging them though unless they cause serious issues like assaulting someone etc

What happened to the drunk tanks? It was on the news a couple of years ago. If someone was being drunk and disorderly, you put them in a drunk tank to sober up. They need to roll these out around the country.

Never even heard of those actually. Sounds like an interesting idea though.

[Shilya]

Can't agree with it. If it's legal to drink, it should also be legal to be drunk. It doesn't make sense to allow something but ban its logical consequence.

If he's worried about public resources, how about slapping a higher tax on alcohol to fund more resources with?

Which punishes the drinkers who are responsible and aren't a drain on public resources.

There's no such thing as a perfectly fair tax, I suppose. Seeing how alcohol does tend to be harmful to your health down the line, I'm still willing to hand them the bill.

The problem is that we have a free NHS, so you can't fine people for wasting NHS time. If you can't arrest them either, then what can you do? Hospitals have a duty of care, so it's not as easy as saying they can just turn people away.

You could install a few small "sobering up" rooms in hospitals. Shouldn't be too expensive. Hire a security guard to keep them from harassing staff/patients, done.

I sympathise with A&E staff here. They have a really difficult job, and there's not much they can do about this without higher intervention. Drunk and disorderly conduct is the closest thing that makes sense, although I think a better option would be taking away responsibility from those who drink irresponsibly.

I do sympathise with them, but I don't see throwing the legal system at them being the answer. Tends to just create even more waste.

---

The logical consequence of having alcohol legal isn't being drunk and incapable.

Not on a personal level, but on the general level, it is. Having alcohol legal means you will have drunks.

[Lordieth]

What happened to the drunk tanks? It was on the news a couple of years ago. If someone was being drunk and disorderly, you put them in a drunk tank to sober up. They need to roll these out around the country.

Never even heard of those actually. Sounds like an interesting idea though.

It's basically just a jail cell, portable or otherwise, that's fitted out to house the drunk and disorderly. Ideally make them comfortable, sound proof and with an en suite bucket, and they can be a disturbance no more.

I think the idea was to privitise them, so if you ever ended up in one, you'd be landed with a bill at the end of your luxury stay. Not against that prospect either, to be honest.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Never even heard of those actually. Sounds like an interesting idea though.

It's basically just a jail cell, portable or otherwise, that's fitted out to house the drunk and disorderly. Ideally make them comfortable, sound proof and with an en suite bucket, and they can be a disturbance no more.

I think the idea was to privitise them, so if you ever ended up in one, you'd be landed with a bill at the end of your luxury stay. Not against that prospect either, to be honest.

Id support it. Drunks can already be put in a cell for the night if they are too far gone to be sent home anyway in order to recover so why not have portable ones?

[Purpelia]

Never even heard of those actually. Sounds like an interesting idea though.

It's basically just a jail cell, portable or otherwise, that's fitted out to house the drunk and disorderly. Ideally make them comfortable, sound proof and with an en suite bucket, and they can be a disturbance no more.

I think the idea was to privitise them, so if you ever ended up in one, you'd be landed with a bill at the end of your luxury stay. Not against that prospect either, to be honest.

I like how that sounds. Seriously, the idea is great. If it were me I'd make it illegal for anyone to have a blood alcohol level above a certain limit in public.

[Lordieth]

Which punishes the drinkers who are responsible and aren't a drain on public resources.

There's no such thing as a perfectly fair tax, I suppose. Seeing how alcohol does tend to be harmful to your health down the line, I'm still willing to hand them the bill.

The problem is that we have a free NHS, so you can't fine people for wasting NHS time. If you can't arrest them either, then what can you do? Hospitals have a duty of care, so it's not as easy as saying they can just turn people away.

You could install a few small "sobering up" rooms in hospitals. Shouldn't be too expensive. Hire a security guard to keep them from harassing staff/patients, done.

Similar to the "drunk tank" concept, and yes, that would work. provided the staff were kept safe. Perhaps somewhere a little off-site would be preferable, though. The idea is to get the drunks away from A&E. Not give them a place to lay their head.

[Lordieth]

It's basically just a jail cell, portable or otherwise, that's fitted out to house the drunk and disorderly. Ideally make them comfortable, sound proof and with an en suite bucket, and they can be a disturbance no more.

I think the idea was to privitise them, so if you ever ended up in one, you'd be landed with a bill at the end of your luxury stay. Not against that prospect either, to be honest.

I like how that sounds. Seriously, the idea is great. If it were me I'd make it illegal for anyone to have a blood alcohol level above a certain limit in public.

It is a good idea, however I imagine the reason it's not already widely used is either to do with litigation or some silly European Court of Human Rights violation. They should be installed in every city. Ran privately, and police have discretionary power to lock anyone up in them for the night if they're being a nuisance.

[Purpelia]

I like how that sounds. Seriously, the idea is great. If it were me I'd make it illegal for anyone to have a blood alcohol level above a certain limit in public.

It is a good idea, however I imagine the reason it's not already widely used is either to do with litigation or some silly European Court of Human Rights violation. They should be installed in every city. Ran privately, and police have discretionary power to lock anyone up in them for the night if they're being a nuisance.

To be perfectly honest I am sick and tired of the EU and their stupid moralism. Seriously, the EU was supposed to be an economic union but it's turning into a bloody superstate run by good for nothing human rights worshipers. But I digress.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Is there a sure-fire way of doing an instant blood-alcohol test that causes human combustion if the levels are too high?

[Tagmatium]

It's basically just a jail cell, portable or otherwise, that's fitted out to house the drunk and disorderly. Ideally make them comfortable, sound proof and with an en suite bucket, and they can be a disturbance no more.

I think the idea was to privitise them, so if you ever ended up in one, you'd be landed with a bill at the end of your luxury stay. Not against that prospect either, to be honest.

I like how that sounds. Seriously, the idea is great. If it were me I'd make it illegal for anyone to have a blood alcohol level above a certain limit in public.

Surely if it they're not being a nuisance or causing problems, then it's no damned business how pissed up they are?

[Shilya]

Similar to the "drunk tank" concept, and yes, that would work. provided the staff were kept safe. Perhaps somewhere a little off-site would be preferable, though. The idea is to get the drunks away from A&E. Not give them a place to lay their head.

I don't see how putting them off-site helps matters much, tbh. They'll show up at A&E anyways. All that means is that you now have to get a drunk guy towards off-site instead of having a room at hands directly. Them being away from A&E doesn't strike me as something that's beneficial in itself either. Sometimes, they do legitimately need medical attention, and no matter how drunk and disorderly they may be, they should still be able to get it.

[Lordieth]

I like how that sounds. Seriously, the idea is great. If it were me I'd make it illegal for anyone to have a blood alcohol level above a certain limit in public.

Surely if it they're not being a nuisance or causing problems, then it's no damned business how pissed up they are?

Hey, if you can't drive a car above a certain blood alcohol level, then you could argue you're not safe to drive a human body. In all seriousness though, I think it should be deemed on behavior than blood alcohol level. How much you choose to marinade your own internal organs is your business. Just do it quietly.

[Lordieth]

Is there a sure-fire way of doing an instant blood-alcohol test that causes human combustion if the levels are too high?

Fire-eating.

[Tillania]

Making alcohol illegal or taxing it higher isn't the answer.
A maximum blood alcohol level isn't either, as it's effect on people varies.
Just remove drunkenness as a mitigating circumstance for any crimes or misdemeanours.

[Imperializt Russia]

I'm on board with this to be honest. Any individual who ends up in an A+E department purely because of being incapable while drunk should be automatically charged with being drunk and disorderly. I don't really buy into this hand waving excuse that targeting crime is a bad idea because we would have to process the criminals. The police in this matter are simply washing their hands of things and abandoning hospital staff out of pure laziness. Thoughts?

Incapable while drunk is a separate and existing charge. If you're incapable while drunk, you're not distracting from care because you require care. That's why it's termed "incapable".