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AH Interwar - Discussion and interest

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The Jonathanian States
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AH Interwar - Discussion and interest

Postby The Jonathanian States » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:57 am

Well, I'm the Jonathanian States and this'll be the pre-OOC discussion thread for my coming[and having gone] Interwar rp.
Specifically, this thread will be for setting up and determining what happened in the years 1919-1938, before that rp, and how the world of December 1938, at the start of the rp, looks like. But I'm getting ahead of myself.


The main cause for the difference between this interwar era and Our Timeline's interwar era is that, unlike in our history, the Central Powers[Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria, The Ottoman Empire and the German Empire] won the Great War, the War to end all wars, the World War. The Weltkrieg.
The following are the [official] cause of the World War, and its history.
On the 28th of June, in the year of 1914, the heir presumptive to the Austro-Hungarian Throne, Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand of house Habsburg(-Lorraine) was shot by Gavrileo Princip.
The following month would enter history as the July crisis, the political maneuvering of the Great Powers of the world, as Austria-Hungary gave Serbia an Ultimatum with accusations of support for the assassin.
Exactly one month later, on the 28th of July, after the Serbian Kingdom declined the last two demands of the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum, war is declared by the emperor from Vienna.
On the next day, Russia declared partial mobilization. On the day thereafter, the German Empire demands French neutrality and starts its own mobilization, leading the Russian Empire to extend its own mobilization.
Immediately the German Empire sent the Russian Empire an ultimatum to end its mobilization. Russia responded by declaring to be open to negotiations for it to abort the mobilization.
The 1st of August, is the date on which the German empire declares war on the Russian one. On the 2nd and 3rd, the German Empire declares war on Luxembourg and France, respectively.
The following day war is declared on Belgium after they decline to give the German troops permission to move through their territory. On the same day, Britain responds by declaring war on the German Empire in defense of Belgium.
The event the powers have both awaited and feared has now finally come: The world is at war.
In the year of 1914 the Allies of the western front would rush Germany to the sea, and see the beginning of Trench-warfare.
The war would continue as we know it until the year of 1917.
The German Empire, more eager on avoiding US entry into the war than on driving Great Britain out of it, continues to follow the Sussex pledge, decides not to send the Zimmerman telegram, and aborts actions like the Black Tom explosion. This, together with public relation efforts of showing the British acts in the Irish Revolt tilts public and congress opinion to neutrality, restricting Wilson from declaring war or from getting Congress to authorize uncovered loans and other extended support for the Entente. The most critical meaning of this change being that the Entente does not receive the unsecured loans from the US, which in turn leads to a significant reduction of available funds and to a slow erosion of the war enthusiasm of the British and French Governments. The Nivelle Offensive still fails. The French Army Mutinies happen as well, only to be harshly crushed by Petain.
In addition, not having received the loans they required, the ententes were not able to push the Germans from the Hindenburg Line. The rest continues historically until 1918.

In 1918 Russia reaches agreements with the Central Powers, finalized in the Treaties of Brest-Litovsk.
This meant that by early May, with the eastern front finished, the German, Austro-Hungarian, and Bulgarian armies headed south to prevent the Entente attempts to liberate Serbia via Greece. At the same time, Ottoman troops from thee Caucasian Front were moved south as well, in order to repel the British in Iraq and the Levant. Those Ottoman troops would be supported by a portion of the German Armies of the Balkan Theater after the Greek Settlement [The Greek Settlement: Assuming that with Russia knocked out of the war, Serbia still occupied, and Romania already pacified, the war is approaching its end, the support of the Royalists rises, allowing them to move into the offensive against the Venizelos-Faction of the National Schism. At the same time, troops of the Central Powers, under command of Mackensen, advance on the Venizeloans from the east. Not wanting to surrender to the forces of the Greek King Constantine, Venizelos surrenders to Mackensen in the name of his Provisional Government. The surrender is accepted, and following it the legitimate Greek Kingdom is approached for a proper settlement to the occupation and Venizelos' War.] The rest of the forces invested by the Central Powers in the Balkan Theater would be relocated to both the trenches of the western front, and to the Italian Campaign under the command of Von Below, Von Hötzendorf, and Boroevic.
And contrary to our history, Entente troops would not manage to remove the Austrian occupation of Serbia, which would continue until the official cessation of hostilities. This also allows the German Empire to send logistical and troop support to the Ottomans.
Having received word of planned ottoman reinforcements in the summer, and of the possibility of German troops in Fall or Early Winter, in spring 1918 Otto Liman Von Sanders decides to attempt to delay the British, but not to fight for unnecessary ground, if it doesn't close his retreat further north. This means that in September, instead of entrenching to face the Megiddo Offensive, Sanders decides to continue giving ground, in hope of being able to repulse the British on his own terms. This proves true two weeks later when German Reinforcements arrive, in addition to the earlier Ottoman troops. The Levantine Theater reaches its turning point when Von Sanders, entrenched at the upper Galilee and the Golan Heights, held off Allenby's cavalry advance into the Hula Valley, only to launch his own advance from the slopes of the Golan Heights, which were supported by a coastal advance in the west.

On the western Front, not having to rush in fear of the United States, and having sent the eastern troops to secure other theaters first, Operation Michael is temporarily disregarded.

On the Italian Front, the additional troops from Russia would help the Austrians safely hold their position, as well as rotate the troops between the front and reserve. The Entente being unable to support the Italians, as well as the influx of Austro-Hungarian, German, and Bulgarian Troops in June 1918 means that the Battle of Piave River is a success, resulting in Central Troops entering the Po Valley. Two weeks of gradual Italian retreat see the old Piave front replaced by two new Fronts. The Savoyard Front, consisting of quickly gathered French reserves and the remains of the northern troops of the Piave Line, which went from the Ligurian Alps to the Mediterranean. The Second front is the Peninsular Front, manned by the southern remains of the Piave Line, as well as most of the reserves, including the Ragazzi del '99 (Boys of '99, so the 18 year old males), which closed off the Italian peninsula proper.
In the following week the Centralist Troops started occupying the Po Valley, including Milan and Venice, and supposedly there were some preparations for the transport of industry, similar to what did happen in occupied Belgium. Tough before anything of that kind could be set into motion, on the 7th of July, as the second of the major Entente states, the Italians ask the Central Powers for an armistice and, after a few telegraphs to Berlin and Vienna via Bern, surrender.

It is then, in early July, that all European Centralist Troops are moved either to the Italo-French Border, at the Savoyard Front, the Italian troops of which either joined the French or returned home under the truces, or to the Great Western Front in Belgium, France, and Germany. Without American Loans, during the last two years the state of France significantly declined, with the continued sustenance of the war effort being harsh to upload, and due to it the French government as a whole. And so, by 1918, when the Greeks were pacified and the Italians surrendered, when the Russians were long out of the war, and when the Ottomans were reconquering, the gaze of the Emperors finally turned west into France.

On the 1st of September the OHL had prepared the offensive that was to serve as a replacement for the Operation Michael that had been cancelled in Spring. This time, the plan was a two-pronged assault towards Paris: The first prong, in the form of Operation Hammer, was to breach the Belgian-British Lines around the river Lys and rush to the coast, separating the British Forces from the coast, as well as opening the breach for further assaults to flank and surround the Belgian remains, and once having passed the British, to form a hook and cut for the Somme, from which, if possible, it could head south. The second prong, Operation Amboss, which was to cause most of the pressure to be applied on the French was to break through between Reims and Soissons, passing over the Chemin des Dames and crossing the western Vesle or Aisne.

Over the next three weeks reserves, equipment, and supplies were prepared, as well as details reported to the lower ranks of the troops which were to take part in the two offensives.
And so, at sunrise September 24th, the first Sturmtruppen raised their heads over the trenches, and the the great assault began. 10 hours later, as the sun was on its way down again, Operation Amboss was launched as well. The Kaiserschlacht, the final push to end the war of wars, had come.
Later it would be said that the fights that happened in the Aisne Trench during September were the most gruesome of the war. It saw artillery bombardments, aerial gunnery, chemical weaponry, and the pure death nurtured by trenches, machine guns, and massed troops. A week later saw the German Flags raised over Boulogne, over the hinterlands of Calais, and in the suburbs of Chantilly.

With the Germans once again at the gates, and this time having exhausted the troops of the Marne Valley in defense of the Aisne, having the British tied up in Picardy, as well as its finances being in shambles, the people's enthusiasm for the war declining, and the soldiers' mutinies a year ago still in their memories, on the 3rd day to the month of October the French government of Clemenceau, via its embassy in Switzerland, requested a surrender from the German Embassy in Bern.

With the French resistance disappearing, Haig feared that the salient of his BEF would turn into a pocked, a fear that was realized three days later, when, after a forced march towards the Somme, German flags were seen over the fortifications of Amiens. For two additional days Haig had his troops dig in outside of Amiens, awaiting the final German onslaught, which never came. With the British pocket of Picardy and the Belgian holdout being the last parts of continental resistance, the OHL was moved westwards from Luxemburg. This later allowed Hindenburg to be the one to receive Haig's surrender of the British forces. Supposedly, as he gave his surrender, Haig offered Hindenburg his sword. It is said that Hindenburg took the hilt, acknowledging Haig's offer, and then asked him to keep it, as a gesture of his respect for him. And so the remainder of the BEF became POWs to be interned in occupied Belgium.
Standing on his own, 4 hours later King Albert, by now a national hero for the Belgians, surrenders in the name of his country, asking the Government-In-Exile to return and join him under the occupation for the expected formal peace.

Albion alone stands as the resisting Entente. Favors are asked of Wilson and the Congress to get the US to save Britain, but with the war already lost on the continent, and USW having been aborted, congress blocks any attempt to support the United Kingdom any more, continuing the US' own splendid isolation. On the 10th of October, a proposal critical for getting the US into the war fails passing Congress, leading to a counter-proposal demanding Britain to open it's blockade for humanitarian goods headed for central and eastern Europe. That proposal fails as well, put signifies a change in American popular opinion.
On the following day, encouraged by news of the attempt to remove the blockade on them, the germans declare that should the British blockade not be ceased within the next 12 hours, Unrestricted submarine warfare would have to be restored, and issued a warning to merchant shipping headed for British waters.

After the critical proposal having failed in Congress, the Germans threaten that in order to finish the war they will have to go back on the Sussex pledge, but that it will be shipping headed for Britain exclusively that will be attacked. Weary of again having to endure the harsh unlimited Blockade, the British Government of David Lloyd George declares its intent to enter negotiations with the Germans for a fully conditional surrender. The following day sees the last armistice to be declared during the war, de-facto ending the conflict that would enter the human mind and history as the Great War, World War, and Weltkrieg.

The formal end to the war to end all wars would come on the 29th of December on that same year, when the final peace treaty of Copenhagen was concluded. The Treaty of Berlin was the last of the chain of treaties, starting with the Treaties of Brest-Litovsk and of Bucharest, including the Treaty of Venice, the Treaty of Vienna (1918), and finally the Treaty of Copenhagen. The Treaty of Copenhagen also was the only treaty that saw serious negotiations between the Central Powers and an Entente nation, as all other treaties were dictated to the defeated. Though the war on the continent will officially have ended on the 13th of December in the peace with France.


In conclusion of those 4 and a half long years of war, The Powers sat down to the discussion tables in order to receive, negotiate, or dictate terms as appropriate by their results in the war.
The following is a summary of all treaties.
  • The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (Ukraine)
    The Treaty between the Central Powers and Ukraine, in the Germanophone world also colloquially known as the Brotfrieden [lit. Bread-Peace], can be summarized as making Ukraine a protectorate under a different name. Specifically, the treaty gives the Central Powers economic support in the form of food in exchange for protection of the Ukrainian state and a guarantee for its foreign affairs to be done through the Axis Berlin-Vienna.
    • The Ukraine also agreed to recognize all other Central Power gains.
  • The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (Russia) [Including Extensions]
    The Treaty between the Central Powers and Bolshevik Russia, after the last extensions of the 17th of August, can be considered as the Bolsheviks surrendering to the German Empire in order to turn towards the White-Russian threat.
    Its terms were as such: Reparations in the height of 5 Billion Goldmark to be paid by Russia to the German Empire and an additional 3 Billion to Austria-Hungary, and a complete Russian retreat from all lands beyond the Baltic-Caspian Line [following the Baltic states and then curving at Poland towards Ukraine and then the Caucasian Region, as well as a ceasing all Russian claims to those areas - see the eastern/southern borders of Russia on the map]. Specific mention was made of the Kars Governorate, including the port of Batum, which was to be returned to the Ottoman Empire, and of Bessarabia which was to go to Romania. In addition, Russia recognized Finland as in independent country out of its influence. Russia also agreed to recognize all gains and/or agreements made by the Central Powers with other countries, as well as all new countries they may create.
  • The Treaty of Bucharest (Romania)
    The Treaty between the Central Powers and the Kingdom of Romania can be summarized as mostly border changes, as well as creating a economic-political tie between Romania and the German Empire.
    Specifically, it hands Austria-Hungary control of the passes in the Carpathian Mountains, strategic key positions, it cedes Bulgaria the Southern Dobruja and southern North Dobruja, declares the rest of North Dobruja to be controlled by an Austro-Hungarian-German condominium, as well as a 99-year lease of the Romanian Oil Wells to the German Empire.
    • Romania also was forced to recognize all other Central Power gains.
  • The Greek Settlement
    An agreement, explicitly defined as not being a peace treaty due to there having been no proper state of war, between King Constantine of Greece and his government and the four Central Powers. In light of Constatine's unwillingness to go to war against the Central Powers and his ties to the German Empire, as well as his tolerance of the Central Power's demand for safety, Greece is absolved of any need to pay war reparations. But, in order to prevent a second Thessaloniki campaign by factions hostile to the Central Powers, the easternmost outreaches of Thrace that had been occupied by the Bulgarian forces before/during the National Schism shall be annexed to Bulgaria, while the Central Powers would be allowed to construct a Naval Base Exclave on Crete. Greece also would recognize the Central Power gains of the war, while in return the Central Powers would recognize Constatine's rule of Greece and promise the protection of Greek territorial integrity.
  • Treaty of Sofia (Serbia)
    The Treaty between the Central Powers and the Kingdom of Serbia can be considered a treaty between Serbia on one hand and Bulgaria and Austria-Hungary on the other, exclusively. This stems from the fact that the treaty merely dictates to the Serbians which of the two Central Powers will annex which areas - the conclusion being that southern Serbia, centered on Serb Macedonia, will be annexed by Bulgaria, while the northern half, being roughly consistent with the older Serbian Principality, was to be annexed by the Austro-Hungarian Empire. In addition the treaty declares Serbia, due to support for the Black Hand, as the primary aggressor of the war and that therefore it is to take the blame for it, which is used as justification for its complete annexation.
  • Treaty of Vienna (Montenegro)
    The Treaty between the Central Powers and the Kingdom of Montenegro, unlike the treaty with its ally and neighbor Serbia, did not include large-scale annexations, and instead makes slight border changes in accordance with strategic and tactical requirements for a continued Austro-Hungarian Hegemony over Montenegro, which the treaty recognizes as well.
    • Montenegro also was forced to recognize all Central Power gains.
  • Treaty of Venice (Italy)
    The Treaty between the Central Powers and the Kingdom of Montenegro concluded the Italian presence in the war. First of all it revokes the Venetian part of the 1866 Treaty of Vienna, returning it to Austria-Hungary in the form of a vassal state of Venice. Italian Eritrea was to be ceded to the Ottomans, while Italian Somaliland went to the Germans. In addition it also includes an agreement to revise the 1912 Treaty of Lausanne, which results in Italian Libya being returned to the Ottoman Empire. It also forced Italy to pay 500 Million Goldmark to the Austro-Hungarians and 70 Million Goldmark to both Bulgaria and Germany.
    • Italy also would be forced to recognize all Central Power Gains.
  • Treaty of Frankfurt (Belgium)
    The Treaty between the Central Powers and the Kingdom of Belgium concluded hostilities with the Belgian Kingdom. It removed the Belgian Congo from Belgian ownership, instead handing it to the German Empire, as well as losing all land east of the Meuse: The North-eastern part going to the Prussian Rhineland (Germany) and the south-western part, including the ex-Luxembourgian Arlon region, to Luxemburg. In addition Germany was to be granted the right to freely use Belgian ports, to construct naval and military bases and fortifications in Belgium, integrate the Belgian Railway network into the German one, and finally take over existing Belgian fortifications. Then came clauses determining the non-neutrality of Belgium, and that it shall co-ordinate its foreign relations with the German Empire, turning it de-jure into an inexplicit vassal state without using the term.
    • Belgium also would be forced to recognize all Central Power Gains.
  • The Treaty of Luxemburg (Luxembourg)
    The Treaty between Central Powers and the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg is considered the simplest of all treaties. Luxembourg was to be annexed as Luxemburg and to be turned into a federal state, equal in right and duty to all other federal states.
  • Treaty of Berlin (France)
    The Treaty between the Central Powers and France, sometimes also known as the Hohenzollern-Treaty, the Treaty of Hohenzollern, and in German also as the Berlin Diktat [Berlin dictate] or as the Berlin dictee in French [with the same meaning] was the treaty that ended the war on the continent after the 3rd of October armistice. It usually is considered the harshest in amounts of revanchism it raised and feeling of humiliation it brought with it, and in terms of actual harm it is considered second to only the Russian Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.
    1. The departments of Meurthe-et-Moselle and of Vosges, including Briey and Longwy were to be ceded to the German Empire, together with the territory of Belfort.
    2. The region of Nord-Pas-de-Calais was to go to the Kingdom of Belgium.
    3. French North Africa as well as Mauritania from French West Africa were to unite as a German protectorate under the name of the Maghreb Confederation.
    4. The French Federation of Indochina was to be replaced by a German colonial federation.
    5. The remaining French colonies were to be transferred directly to the German Empire. Except for Madagascar, which for reasons unknown - some say it was forgotten, some say it was good will, some say it was considered useless - was left to the French.
    6. In addition France was forced to pay reparations in the sum of 15 Billion Goldmark.
    7. France also would be forced to recognize all Central Power Gains.
  • Treaty of Copenhagen (Britain, Portugal, Japan)
    As it did not offer a complete surrender, but rather entered negotiations, Britain demanded the negotiations to be held in a neutral country, leading to the Danish king being requested to host the negotiations, considering Denmark's proximity and neutrality. Japan was to be ceded Papua New-Guinea and the German Pacific possessions, but would allow the German Empire to retain Tsingtao in return for getting Macao.
    Portugal was to cede Macao to Japan (via Germany) in return for receiving southern Senegal, with recognition again being part of the agreement. Britain was to be given some of northern Senegal, as well as Italian Somaliland in return for recognizing the African and continental gains, returning Germany its colonies, handing over Malta and Gibraltar to Germany, and for recognizing German Control of the Eastern Size of Suez, according to the Ceasefire line. In addition a secret clause had the German Empire guarantee that its hold on the ex-french colonies in the Americas was non-permanent and that they would be sold off to a(group of) neutral power(s).
  • Washington Agreement (USA)
    The German-American Treaty in which the exchange of the ex-French colonies was formalized. It saw the US receive the colonies for a reduction of the German Debt. In return the US also recognized the gains made by the Central Powers.


For your reference: The World of the 1st of January 1919
  • __________ - German Empire
  • __________ - British Empire
  • __________ - France
  • __________ - Spain
  • __________ - Portugal
  • __________ - Switzerland
  • __________ - Belgium
  • __________ - Netherlands
  • __________ - Venetia
  • __________ - Italy
  • __________ - Montenegro
  • __________ - Kingdom of Poland
  • __________ - Ukraine
  • __________ - White Ruthenia
  • __________ - United Baltic Duchy
  • __________ - Finland
  • __________ - Sweden
  • __________ - Norway
  • __________ - Denmark
  • __________ - Russia
  • __________ - Crimea
  • __________ - Romania
  • __________ - Bulgaria
  • __________ - Greece
  • __________ - Albania
  • __________ - Ottoman Empire
  • __________ - Austria-Hungary
  • __________ - Cossack State
  • __________ - Kalmykia
  • __________ - Circassia
  • __________ - Dagestani Emirate
  • __________ - Azerbaijan
  • __________ - Georgia
  • __________ - Armenia
  • __________ - Persia
  • __________ - Jabal Shammar
  • __________ - Saudi Riyadh
  • __________ - Abyssinia
  • __________ - Maghreb Confederation
  • __________ - South Africa
  • __________ - Liberia
  • __________ - Brazil
  • __________ - Bolivia
  • __________ - Peru
  • __________ - Paraguay
  • __________ - Argentina
  • __________ - Uruguay
  • __________ - Chile
  • __________ - Ecuador
  • __________ - Colombia
  • __________ - Venezuela
  • __________ - Panama
  • __________ - United States of America
  • __________ - Mexico
  • __________ - Cuba
  • __________ - Haiti
  • __________ - Dominican Republic
  • __________ - Guatemala
  • __________ - El Salvador
  • __________ - Nicaragua
  • __________ - Honduras
  • __________ - Afghanistan
  • __________ - Nepal
  • __________ - Bhutan
  • __________ - China (Beiyang)
  • __________ - Japan
  • __________ - Siam
  • __________ - Australia
  • __________ - New Zealand
  • __________ - Bahrain
  • __________ - Qatar
  • __________ - Mongolia



But all of that happened just before 1919. Since then nearly two decades have passed, as we enter the second week of December 1938.
Attempting this without a pre-constructed history didn't work out too well, so now it should have a solid history - which is what this thread is for. Creating a historical background for the years of 1919-1938.

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The Jonathanian States
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Postby The Jonathanian States » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:59 am

I'll just keep this post for filling in history as we discuss.
Last edited by The Jonathanian States on Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Epraria » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:14 am

Well i'm pretty sure Chine still gets f'cked up in something like civil wars and warlordism.
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Postby The Jonathanian States » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:17 am

Epraria wrote:Well i'm pretty sure Chine still gets f'cked up in something like civil wars and warlordism.

Makes sense...
But unless we do have a japanese invasion the civil war might end earlier, nonetheless.
EDIT:
Or an invasion by anybody, I suppose, and then also only if the parties follow their historical stance - so much we could change.
Last edited by The Jonathanian States on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Epraria » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:23 am

The Jonathanian States wrote:
Epraria wrote:Well i'm pretty sure Chine still gets f'cked up in something like civil wars and warlordism.

Makes sense...
But unless we do have a japanese invasion the civil war might end earlier, nonetheless.
EDIT:
Or an invasion by anybody, I suppose, and then also only if the parties follow their historical stance - so much we could change.

Well China was a chaotic mess at the time so yes. A lot could change.
Last edited by Epraria on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
You can call me Easy-E or Eppie if you want but you can if you are really lazy call me Ep.
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HorusLand wrote:How's the revolution going?



I will not pay my taxes this year :p

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Great Nepal
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Postby Great Nepal » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:01 am

Britain seems to have gotten off lightly, I get that it was technically not surrendering but with US ending any hopes of support for Britain combined with fall of France (providing potential boost for German Navy even if it involved mere direct access to Atlantic) means it would be quite bad time for Germany to be as generous. Plus at that point, surely blockade would be rather ineffective given Germans could now land supplies in French port and drive it from there...
Last edited by Great Nepal on Sun Nov 29, 1995 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Postby Of The Rnclave » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:13 am

Well it would be way harder for Germany to reach Britain then it is for them to reach France, so of course France would see the worst unless Germany decides to fight Britain on their own turf and invade? Maybe the firebombings continue and the Germans make them worse?
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Postby New Zepuha » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:16 am

SO what exactly is this going to be? You've got my attention.
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Postby Great Nepal » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:19 am

Of The Rnclave wrote:Well it would be way harder for Germany to reach Britain then it is for them to reach France, so of course France would see the worst unless Germany decides to fight Britain on their own turf and invade? Maybe the firebombings continue and the Germans make them worse?

No I entirely agree France would see it worse, just that Britain seems to have gotten away with slap on the wrist: having to share control of Suez and loosing control of Gibraltar. Surely there should be some reparations, territorial loss (thinking Ireland/ Scotland) or at very least navy limitation given Germany and Britain were engaged in naval race even before the war...
Last edited by Great Nepal on Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Great Nepal on Sun Nov 29, 1995 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Postby Of The Rnclave » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:22 am

Great Nepal wrote:
Of The Rnclave wrote:Well it would be way harder for Germany to reach Britain then it is for them to reach France, so of course France would see the worst unless Germany decides to fight Britain on their own turf and invade? Maybe the firebombings continue and the Germans make them worse?

No I entirely agree France would see it worse, just that Britain seems to have gotten away with slap on the wrist: having to share control of Suez and loosing control of Gibraltar. Surely there should be some reparations, territorial loss (thinking Ireland/ Scotland) or at very least navy limitation given Germany and Britain were engaged in naval race even before the war...


I remember in a book i read about an alternate Great War, the USA rose revolutions in Ireland and Scotland, so Britain had to fight two revolutions and the Great War, or perhaps England looses Australia and India? I feel,like Germany would eat up England's Territory
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Postby Of The Rnclave » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:25 am

New Zepuha wrote:SO what exactly is this going to be? You've got my attention.


There was an rp called Of Eagles, Lions and Bears, and it was an alt history WW1, and it was going along great, and we racked up like 100 pages of OOC, but everyone left when the IC started
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Postby Epraria » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:26 am

Great Nepal wrote:
Of The Rnclave wrote:Well it would be way harder for Germany to reach Britain then it is for them to reach France, so of course France would see the worst unless Germany decides to fight Britain on their own turf and invade? Maybe the firebombings continue and the Germans make them worse?

No I entirely agree France would see it worse, just that Britain seems to have gotten away with slap on the wrist: having to share control of Suez and loosing control of Gibraltar. Surely there should be some reparations, territorial loss (thinking Ireland/ Scotland) or at very least navy limitation given Germany and Britain were engaged in naval race even before the war...

Well Scotland is sort of a stretch but Britain could probably lose Ireland and some colonies like Kenya. I agree though on the naval limitations and Suez canal.
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HorusLand wrote:How's the revolution going?



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Postby Of The Rnclave » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:27 am

Epraria wrote:
Great Nepal wrote:No I entirely agree France would see it worse, just that Britain seems to have gotten away with slap on the wrist: having to share control of Suez and loosing control of Gibraltar. Surely there should be some reparations, territorial loss (thinking Ireland/ Scotland) or at very least navy limitation given Germany and Britain were engaged in naval race even before the war...

Well Scotland is sort of a stretch but Britain could probably lose Ireland and some colonies like Kenya. I agree though on the naval limitations and Suez canal.


Perhaps Germany boots England form Africa entirely, and manages to use the U-Boats to devastate the British fleet, upon which they impose Naval limitations and reparations.
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Postby The Jonathanian States » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:43 am

Great Nepal wrote:Britain seems to have gotten off lightly

Slightly so, but the German Empire had a clock ticking by its side. The Brits had one starting to run down at the same time, but neither knew it of the other.
, I get that it was technically not surrendering

Indeed. EDIT: Eh... the german empire didn't see them as surrendering, unaware of the exact state of Britain. But Britain wasn't quite aware of the state of germany either, so that makes the whole business somewhat complicated. /EDIT
but with US ending any hopes of support for Britain

true
combined with fall of France (providing potential boost for German Navy even if it involved mere direct access to Atlantic)

Eh.... the german navy proper, the HSF that is, was still locked in Wilhelmshafen "under siege" by the Brits. And the subs had access either way, only that now they had a bit more space down south.
Actually, the more important aspect of france falling is that the war truly had become unwinable. Britain hadn't yet lost, as such, but alone it couldn't directly force the Germans to return their gains. With France that hope always could have remained.
means it would be quite bad time for Germany to be as generous.

It only was somewhat generous in hindsight. Without the hindsight of the British lacking cash and their own pressure slowly rising, the Germans would have been too focused on finishing the war - or rather the blockade - in order to secure their own rule and stability.
Plus at that point, surely blockade would be rather ineffective given Germans could now land supplies in French port and drive it from there...

The french populace still would be somewhat hostile, even if exhausted, and as such wouldn't have been relied upon too much. So there's that.
Being honest, I hadn't fully considered that. But France also would be starting its own reconstruction, to an extent, so the ports would most likely be busy anyway, which coupled with some lazyness in transports for Germany, would make it a minor stream of supplies at most. (A similar case of something like that has been around WW2, if I'm not mistaken, I think 'twas in Britain just before or after the war).


Epraria wrote:
The Jonathanian States wrote:Makes sense...
But unless we do have a japanese invasion the civil war might end earlier, nonetheless.
EDIT:
Or an invasion by anybody, I suppose, and then also only if the parties follow their historical stance - so much we could change.

Well China was a chaotic mess at the time so yes. A lot could change.

Yep.
Of The Rnclave wrote:Well it would be way harder for Germany to reach Britain then it is for them to reach France, so of course France would see the worst

Indeed.
unless Germany decides to fight Britain on their own turf and invade?
Neither able to actually, nor in terms of time.
Maybe the firebombings continue and the Germans make them worse?

Maybe....
New Zepuha wrote:SO what exactly is this going to be? You've got my attention.

An rp that will either depict a 2nd World War, or a cold war (or both) sometime after 1938, 20 years after Germany and its allies won the first world war.
Great Nepal wrote:
Of The Rnclave wrote:Well it would be way harder for Germany to reach Britain then it is for them to reach France, so of course France would see the worst unless Germany decides to fight Britain on their own turf and invade? Maybe the firebombings continue and the Germans make them worse?

No I entirely agree France would see it worse,

Obviously.
just that Britain seems to have gotten away with slap on the wrist:

Eh... they lost their control of the med, which means that whenever germany desires them to do so, they basically have to double their route to India and the far east.
They also have lost the ability to concert Europe effectively, which also would allow Germany to build up a fleet.
having to share control of Suez and loosing control of Gibraltar

Which together with the Ottomans having the Bosphorus means that all exists from the Med can be cut off by germany (assuming they keep their allies).
. Surely there should be some reparations,

Doubt that. Germany was in no capability to enforce such things.
territorial loss (thinking Ireland/ Scotland)

Definitely not.
or at very least navy limitation given Germany and Britain were engaged in naval race even before the war...

A naval race which didn't really help germany who instead built their victory on the army. That policy wouldn't necessarily be continued, so why attempt to enforce something regarding that policy.
Of The Rnclave wrote:
Great Nepal wrote:No I entirely agree France would see it worse, just that Britain seems to have gotten away with slap on the wrist: having to share control of Suez and loosing control of Gibraltar. Surely there should be some reparations, territorial loss (thinking Ireland/ Scotland) or at very least navy limitation given Germany and Britain were engaged in naval race even before the war...


I remember in a book i read about an alternate Great War, the USA rose revolutions in Ireland and Scotland, so Britain had to fight two revolutions and the Great War, or perhaps England looses Australia and India? I feel,like Germany would eat up England's Territory

At most Germany would take colonial areas. Also, unless there is some quite old PoD, the USA reasonably being so hostile to Britain that they fuel revolutions in its times of despair is impossible. With this PoD, it definitely is.
Of The Rnclave wrote:
New Zepuha wrote:SO what exactly is this going to be? You've got my attention.


There was an rp called Of Eagles, Lions and Bears, and it was an alt history WW1, and it was going along great, and we racked up like 100 pages of OOC, but everyone left when the IC started

OELaB in turn is based on something even more ancient.
Epraria wrote:
Great Nepal wrote:No I entirely agree France would see it worse, just that Britain seems to have gotten away with slap on the wrist: having to share control of Suez and loosing control of Gibraltar. Surely there should be some reparations, territorial loss (thinking Ireland/ Scotland) or at very least navy limitation given Germany and Britain were engaged in naval race even before the war...

Well Scotland is sort of a stretch but Britain could probably lose Ireland and some colonies like Kenya. I agree though on the naval limitations and Suez canal.

Colonies and limitations are one, but taking land from Britain proper would hardly be proposed considering the amount of pressure the Germans would have in those last weeks of 1918.
Of The Rnclave wrote:
Epraria wrote:Well Scotland is sort of a stretch but Britain could probably lose Ireland and some colonies like Kenya. I agree though on the naval limitations and Suez canal.


Perhaps Germany boots England form Africa entirely, and manages to use the U-Boats to devastate the British fleet, upon which they impose Naval limitations and reparations.

Doubtful, impossible, and maybe - respectively.
The british had too many cruisers and lighter ships for the early U-boats to be able to effectively be used in maritime warfare, unless I am mistaken.
That is contrary to attacking merchant convoys, which Germany would have threatened to do at the end of the war (and did in its beginning).
Booting Britain from Africa would mean indirectly kicking the British from India and loosening their control on Australia and New Zealand. Doubt that would've been accepted.
Last edited by The Jonathanian States on Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Of The Rnclave » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:49 am

The Jonathanian States wrote:
Great Nepal wrote:Britain seems to have gotten off lightly

Slightly so, but the German Empire had a clock ticking by its side. The Brits had one starting to run down at the same time, but neither knew it of the other.
, I get that it was technically not surrendering

Indeed. EDIT: Eh... the german empire didn't see them as surrendering, unaware of the exact state of Britain. But Britain wasn't quite aware of the state of germany either, so that makes the whole business somewhat complicated. /EDIT
but with US ending any hopes of support for Britain

true
combined with fall of France (providing potential boost for German Navy even if it involved mere direct access to Atlantic)

Eh.... the german navy proper, the HSF that is, was still locked in Wilhelmshafen "under siege" by the Brits. And the subs had access either way, only that now they had a bit more space down south.
Actually, the more important aspect of france falling is that the war truly had become unwinable. Britain hadn't yet lost, as such, but alone it couldn't directly force the Germans to return their gains. With France that hope always could have remained.
means it would be quite bad time for Germany to be as generous.

It only was somewhat generous in hindsight. Without the hindsight of the British lacking cash and their own pressure slowly rising, the Germans would have been too focused on finishing the war - or rather the blockade - in order to secure their own rule and stability.
Plus at that point, surely blockade would be rather ineffective given Germans could now land supplies in French port and drive it from there...

The french populace still would be somewhat hostile, even if exhausted, and as such wouldn't have been relied upon too much. So there's that.
Being honest, I hadn't fully considered that. But France also would be starting its own reconstruction, to an extent, so the ports would most likely be busy anyway, which coupled with some lazyness in transports for Germany, would make it a minor stream of supplies at most. (A similar case of something like that has been around WW2, if I'm not mistaken, I think 'twas in Britain just before or after the war).


Epraria wrote:Well China was a chaotic mess at the time so yes. A lot could change.

Yep.
Of The Rnclave wrote:Well it would be way harder for Germany to reach Britain then it is for them to reach France, so of course France would see the worst

Indeed.
unless Germany decides to fight Britain on their own turf and invade?
Neither able to actually, nor in terms of time.
Maybe the firebombings continue and the Germans make them worse?

Maybe....
New Zepuha wrote:SO what exactly is this going to be? You've got my attention.

An rp that will either depict a 2nd World War, or a cold war (or both) sometime after 1938, 20 years after Germany and its allies won the first world war.
Great Nepal wrote:No I entirely agree France would see it worse,

Obviously.
just that Britain seems to have gotten away with slap on the wrist:

Eh... they lost their control of the med, which means that whenever germany desires them to do so, they basically have to double their route to India and the far east.
They also have lost the ability to concert Europe effectively, which also would allow Germany to build up a fleet.
having to share control of Suez and loosing control of Gibraltar

Which together with the Ottomans having the Bosphorus means that all exists from the Med can be cut off by germany (assuming they keep their allies).
. Surely there should be some reparations,

Doubt that. Germany was in no capability to enforce such things.
territorial loss (thinking Ireland/ Scotland)

Definitely not.
or at very least navy limitation given Germany and Britain were engaged in naval race even before the war...

A naval race which didn't really help germany who instead built their victory on the army. That policy wouldn't necessarily be continued, so why attempt to enforce something regarding that policy.
Of The Rnclave wrote:
I remember in a book i read about an alternate Great War, the USA rose revolutions in Ireland and Scotland, so Britain had to fight two revolutions and the Great War, or perhaps England looses Australia and India? I feel,like Germany would eat up England's Territory

At most Germany would take colonial areas. Also, unless there is some quite old PoD, the USA reasonably being so hostile to Britain that they fuel revolutions in its times of despair is impossible. With this PoD, it definitely is.
Of The Rnclave wrote:
There was an rp called Of Eagles, Lions and Bears, and it was an alt history WW1, and it was going along great, and we racked up like 100 pages of OOC, but everyone left when the IC started

OELaB in turn is based on something even more ancient.
Epraria wrote:Well Scotland is sort of a stretch but Britain could probably lose Ireland and some colonies like Kenya. I agree though on the naval limitations and Suez canal.

Colonies and limitations are one, but taking land from Britain proper would hardly be proposed considering the amount of pressure the Germans would have in those last weeks of 1918.
Of The Rnclave wrote:
Perhaps Germany boots England form Africa entirely, and manages to use the U-Boats to devastate the British fleet, upon which they impose Naval limitations and reparations.

Doubtful, impossible, and maybe - respectively.
The british had too many cruisers and lighter ships for the early U-boats to be able to effectively be used in maritime warfare, unless I am mistaken.
That is contrary to attacking merchant convoys, which Germany would have threatened to do at the end of the war (and did in its beginning).
Booting Britain from Africa would mean indirectly kicking the British from India and loosening their control on Australia and New Zealand. Doubt that would've been accepted.


Perhaps the USA sided with Germany instead? I read somewhere that the USA almost wen rot war with England in 1896, perhaps they did?
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Postby The Jonathanian States » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:54 am

Of The Rnclave wrote:Perhaps the USA sided with Germany instead? I read somewhere that the USA almost wen rot war with England in 1896, perhaps they did?

For one, I don't think it would've been possible to push public opinion enough for Congress authorizing war against the British, especially if all changes have to happen after 1914, and should rather happen after 1917.
And second to that, I'd rather keep the basic PoD as it is, and instead focus more on the years between it and the beginning of the rp.
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Postby Of The Rnclave » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:59 am

The Jonathanian States wrote:
Of The Rnclave wrote:Perhaps the USA sided with Germany instead? I read somewhere that the USA almost wen rot war with England in 1896, perhaps they did?

For one, I don't think it would've been possible to push public opinion enough for Congress authorizing war against the British, especially if all changes have to happen after 1914, and should rather happen after 1917.
And second to that, I'd rather keep the basic PoD as it is, and instead focus more on the years between it and the beginning of the rp.


Well let's say that after Germany won the war, in the treaty with England, the Central Powers forced more monetary reparations upon them, or maybe they blockaded Argentina? If what I read was right and Argentina supplies Britain with food, say Argentina was blockaded and England gave in to stave of starvation
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Postby Epraria » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:08 am

Of The Rnclave wrote:
The Jonathanian States wrote:For one, I don't think it would've been possible to push public opinion enough for Congress authorizing war against the British, especially if all changes have to happen after 1914, and should rather happen after 1917.
And second to that, I'd rather keep the basic PoD as it is, and instead focus more on the years between it and the beginning of the rp.


Well let's say that after Germany won the war, in the treaty with England, the Central Powers forced more monetary reparations upon them, or maybe they blockaded Argentina? If what I read was right and Argentina supplies Britain with food, say Argentina was blockaded and England gave in to stave of starvation

Wouldn't that go against the monroe doctrine?
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HorusLand wrote:How's the revolution going?



I will not pay my taxes this year :p

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Postby Kratu » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:22 am

This seems rather interesting.
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Postby Of The Rnclave » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:24 pm

Epraria wrote:
Of The Rnclave wrote:
Well let's say that after Germany won the war, in the treaty with England, the Central Powers forced more monetary reparations upon them, or maybe they blockaded Argentina? If what I read was right and Argentina supplies Britain with food, say Argentina was blockaded and England gave in to stave of starvation

Wouldn't that go against the monroe doctrine?


I thought the Monroe doctrine was not allowing forcing nations in the Americas into colonies
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Postby Epraria » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:31 pm

Of The Rnclave wrote:
Epraria wrote:Wouldn't that go against the monroe doctrine?


I thought the Monroe doctrine was not allowing forcing nations in the Americas into colonies

That is part of it. Another part of it was to stop European nations from interfering in South or North America and blockading Argentina is kind of interfering with Argentina.
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Myansaland wrote:
HorusLand wrote:How's the revolution going?



I will not pay my taxes this year :p

After all, I recieved a letter from the City of Warsaw recognizing me as an indepedent apartment.


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Postby Of The Rnclave » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:42 pm

Epraria wrote:
Of The Rnclave wrote:
I thought the Monroe doctrine was not allowing forcing nations in the Americas into colonies

That is part of it. Another part of it was to stop European nations from interfering in South or North America and blockading Argentina is kind of interfering with Argentina.


Depends on how that read it, it's not interfering if they only stop British and French ships
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Postby Epraria » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:47 pm

Of The Rnclave wrote:
Epraria wrote:That is part of it. Another part of it was to stop European nations from interfering in South or North America and blockading Argentina is kind of interfering with Argentina.


Depends on how that read it, it's not interfering if they only stop British and French ships

Because Germany really just stopped British and French Ships in RL.
You can call me Easy-E or Eppie if you want but you can if you are really lazy call me Ep.
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98% of all Internet users would cry if Facebook broke down. If you are part of that 2% who simply would sit back and laugh, copy and paste this into your sig.
Myansaland wrote:
HorusLand wrote:How's the revolution going?



I will not pay my taxes this year :p

After all, I recieved a letter from the City of Warsaw recognizing me as an indepedent apartment.


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Of The Rnclave
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Postby Of The Rnclave » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:11 pm

Epraria wrote:
Of The Rnclave wrote:
Depends on how that read it, it's not interfering if they only stop British and French ships

Because Germany really just stopped British and French Ships in RL.


"Stopped" more like sunk
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The Jonathanian States
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Postby The Jonathanian States » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:35 pm

Of The Rnclave wrote:
The Jonathanian States wrote:For one, I don't think it would've been possible to push public opinion enough for Congress authorizing war against the British, especially if all changes have to happen after 1914, and should rather happen after 1917.
And second to that, I'd rather keep the basic PoD as it is, and instead focus more on the years between it and the beginning of the rp.


Well let's say that after Germany won the war, in the treaty with England, the Central Powers forced more monetary reparations upon them, or maybe they blockaded Argentina? If what I read was right and Argentina supplies Britain with food, say Argentina was blockaded and England gave in to stave of starvation

Eh.... I doubt sending subs so far away in a group significant enough to blockade a whole country would be considered worth it if they might as well use aforementioned subs to blockade Britain.
Epraria wrote:
Of The Rnclave wrote:
Well let's say that after Germany won the war, in the treaty with England, the Central Powers forced more monetary reparations upon them, or maybe they blockaded Argentina? If what I read was right and Argentina supplies Britain with food, say Argentina was blockaded and England gave in to stave of starvation

Wouldn't that go against the monroe doctrine?

Yes, yes it would.
Kratu wrote:This seems rather interesting.

Thank you. I think it is :p
Of The Rnclave wrote:
Epraria wrote:Wouldn't that go against the monroe doctrine?


I thought the Monroe doctrine was not allowing forcing nations in the Americas into colonies

Amongst others.
Epraria wrote:
Of The Rnclave wrote:
I thought the Monroe doctrine was not allowing forcing nations in the Americas into colonies

That is part of it. Another part of it was to stop European nations from interfering in South or North America and blockading Argentina is kind of interfering with Argentina.

Indeed.
Of The Rnclave wrote:
Epraria wrote:That is part of it. Another part of it was to stop European nations from interfering in South or North America and blockading Argentina is kind of interfering with Argentina.


Depends on how that read it, it's not interfering if they only stop British and French ships

Actually, as they'd be trading with Argentina, it is.
Of The Rnclave wrote:
Epraria wrote:Because Germany really just stopped British and French Ships in RL.


"Stopped" more like sunk

Eh... IIRC some where actually only stopped.
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