NATION

PASSWORD

U.K. to block any sale of JAS-39s to Argentina

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Organized States
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8426
Founded: Apr 26, 2014
Ex-Nation

U.K. to block any sale of JAS-39s to Argentina

Postby Organized States » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:31 pm

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20141108/DEFREG05/311080014/Argentina-Buying-Gripens-Brits-Say-No-Way-
LONDON — Argentina’s Defense Minister Agustin Rossi surprised just about everybody when he announced on Oct. 21 that his government intended to buy 24 Saab Gripen E fighters to re-equip his nation’s ancient Air Force.

But Rossi’s request appeared to ignore a likely insurmountable hurdle to the sale: Britain, its longtime foe, has a near veto on the export of the combat jet as a result of the substantial number of UK systems in the jet. More than 30 percent of the new version of the Gripen being developed by Saab is supplied by British industry.

Selex ES’ key active electronically scanned array radar, landing gear, ejection seat, electronic system and other sub-systems would all be hit by a British block on military exports to Argentina.

British business secretary Vince Cable invoked the ban on the sale of all military and dual-use technology for use by Argentina in 2012. That export license is still in place and will likely remain given the impasse between the two nations over resolving the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.

“We are determined to ensure that no British-licensable exports or trade have the potential to be used by Argentina to impose an economic blockade on the Falkland Islanders or inhibit their legitimate rights to develop their own economy,” said a spokesperson for the UK Department of Business, Innovation and Skills.

The Argentinean defense minister made the purchase of the aircraft dependent on his country participating in the Gripen E program signed by Saab and the Brazilian government, which will see South America’s biggest nation buy at least 36 fighters.

The deal involves an assembly line set up by Embraer in Brazil, joint development of a two-seat version of the Gripen and an export drive to other South American air forces.

Ironically, the UK government supported the Gripen sale to Brazil due to the high level of British material in the aircraft.

Doug Barrie, the senior air analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London said that while it would be feasible to replace UK systems on the Gripen, the practicalities are something different.

“Argentina is not flush with money, and the reality is that replacing such key systems as the UK supplies would come with significantly high requalification costs,” he said.

Sources with knowledge of the South American fighter market said Saab has been approached several times over the past few years by the Argentineans over a possible Gripen deal only to be quietly rebuffed by the Swedish company.

A Saab spokesman said the company noted the reports of discussions on Gripen between Brazil and Argentina, but did not have any further information.

“Brazil will become a close partner in the Gripen development and production program. However, all exports of Gripen will continue to be subject to the current, very stringent export regulations,” he said. “In terms of UK equipment on the aircraft, there is no request to change any of this equipment and no plan to do so.”

Rossi’s announcement during a roll-out ceremony of Embraer’s KC-390 airlifter in Brazil caused alarm in Britain, which is in a long-running dispute with Argentina over who owns the Falkland Islands, which Argentina calls the Malivinas Islands.

The issue came up in the UK Parliament last week and the House of Commons defense committee tried to quiz armed forces chiefs on Nov. 5 about the implications for the defense of the islands from a Gripen sale to Argentina.

Argentina invaded the Falkands in 1982, sparking a war with the British. That has resulted in an enduring and costly UK military presence of fighter jets, warships and troops being stationed on the islands since Argentina was defeated.

The dispute has been revived in recent years by Argentinean President Cristina Kirchener, who has made reclaiming the islands a central plank of her policy.

Argentina has been trying to replace the aging fleet of Dassault combat aircraft for some time. Most recently, second-hand Spanish Air Force Mirage F1s were being considered, but that deal has yet to materialize. hasn’t yet come to anything.

Few people are expecting a discussion on Gripen to come to anything, either given Britain’s stance on military export and Argentina’s economic woes. But even if it doesn’t, the issue has raised awareness in Britain of how the military position could change in that part of the world if Argentina was re-equiped with more modern jets and missiles.

Francis Tuser, the editor of Defence Analysis here, said the Gripen issue highlighted that if a deal of this nature went ahead, it would “dramatically and dangerously” change Britain’s situation on the Falklands.

“Although there is a decade-long timeline on this event, it has the capability to change at a stroke, the balance of power in the South Atlantic, and would cause a major change to the UK’s defense posture there,” he said. “If it isn’t addressed in the 2015 strategic defense and security review, then it will have to be addressed as a priority, but that might be too late or at least very expensive.” ■


I personally find it highly unlikely that Argentina will be able to afford the Gripen. The Aircraft might be simply too expensive for the country that defaulted earlier this year. I can also see why the UK will block the sale, as it represents a threat to the Falkland Islands.

So, what do you think NSG? Is the UK in the right here to attempt to block a sale? Will Argentina be able to afford them?

Note: Though I know it will come up eventually, but please don't debate ownership of the Falklands.
Thank God for OS!- Deian
"In the old days, the navigators used magic to make themselves strong, but now, nothing; they just pray. Before they leave and at sea, they pray. But I, I make myself strong by thinking—just by thinking! I make myself strong because I despise cowardice. Too many men are afraid of the sea. But I am a navigator."-Mau Piailug
"I regret that I have only one life to give to my island." -Ricardo Bordallo, 2nd Governor of Guam
"Both are voyages of exploration. Hōkūle‘a is in the past, Columbia is in the future." -Colonel Charles L. Veach, USAF, Astronaut and Navigation Enthusiast

Pacific Islander-American (proud member of the 0.5%), Officer to be

User avatar
Anglo-California
Minister
 
Posts: 3035
Founded: May 06, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Anglo-California » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:35 pm

The Dark Side of the Force surrounds this situation. We must tread carefully.
American nationalist. Secular Traditionalist.
On the American Revolution.

3rd Place for Sexiest Male under 18.
Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce

User avatar
Organized States
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8426
Founded: Apr 26, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Organized States » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:37 pm

Anglo-California wrote:The Dark Side of the Force surrounds this situation. We must tread carefully.

Exactly. Walking the line very thinely here.
Thank God for OS!- Deian
"In the old days, the navigators used magic to make themselves strong, but now, nothing; they just pray. Before they leave and at sea, they pray. But I, I make myself strong by thinking—just by thinking! I make myself strong because I despise cowardice. Too many men are afraid of the sea. But I am a navigator."-Mau Piailug
"I regret that I have only one life to give to my island." -Ricardo Bordallo, 2nd Governor of Guam
"Both are voyages of exploration. Hōkūle‘a is in the past, Columbia is in the future." -Colonel Charles L. Veach, USAF, Astronaut and Navigation Enthusiast

Pacific Islander-American (proud member of the 0.5%), Officer to be

User avatar
Calimera II
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8790
Founded: Jan 03, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Calimera II » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:37 pm

Argentina can afford them, and it seems quite idiotic to me that the UK would block a deal.

And let's not debate ownership of the Malvinas/Falklands. :p

User avatar
Olerand
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13169
Founded: Sep 18, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Olerand » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:39 pm

The country did not technically default, but regardless.

I honestly thought the US was going to stop the sale because of the Argentinean non-payment of its debts to US vulture funds; but respecting a key ally's strategic concerns is obviously a more reasonable reason.

Argentina should consider buying something cheaper, and not American. Maybe Russian or Chinese.

Or it can buy our Rafales, which aren't cheap, but they're so expensive and complicated that literally no one wants to buy them. And we are getting desperate.
Last edited by Olerand on Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
French citizen. Still a Socialist Party member. Ségolène Royal 2019, I guess Actually I might vote la France Insoumise.

Qui suis-je?:
Free Rhenish States wrote:You're French, without faith, probably godless, liberal without any traditional values or respect for any faith whatsoever

User avatar
Organized States
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8426
Founded: Apr 26, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Organized States » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:43 pm

Calimera II wrote:Argentina can afford them, and it seems quite idiotic to me that the UK would block a deal.

And let's not debate ownership of the Malvinas/Falklands. :p

The Gripens are going to run around $60 million USD apiece if they are bought soon, and the UK doesn't want what it views as an equal or near-equal to their Typhoons or F-35Bs in the region, so I can see why they'd block it.

Of course, it usually doesn't end well for any party invovled. :lol2:
Last edited by Organized States on Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thank God for OS!- Deian
"In the old days, the navigators used magic to make themselves strong, but now, nothing; they just pray. Before they leave and at sea, they pray. But I, I make myself strong by thinking—just by thinking! I make myself strong because I despise cowardice. Too many men are afraid of the sea. But I am a navigator."-Mau Piailug
"I regret that I have only one life to give to my island." -Ricardo Bordallo, 2nd Governor of Guam
"Both are voyages of exploration. Hōkūle‘a is in the past, Columbia is in the future." -Colonel Charles L. Veach, USAF, Astronaut and Navigation Enthusiast

Pacific Islander-American (proud member of the 0.5%), Officer to be

User avatar
Olivaero
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8012
Founded: Jun 17, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Olivaero » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:45 pm

Calimera II wrote:Argentina can afford them, and it seems quite idiotic to me that the UK would block a deal.

And let's not debate ownership of the Malvinas/Falklands. :p

Why does it seem idiotic to you?
British, Anglo Celtic, English, Northerner.

Transhumanist, Left Hegelian, Marxist, Communist.

Agnostic Theist, Culturally Christian.

User avatar
Cyrisnia
Senator
 
Posts: 3982
Founded: Jun 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Cyrisnia » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:51 pm

Calimera II wrote:Argentina can afford them, and it seems quite idiotic to me that the UK would block a deal.

And let's not debate ownership of the Malvinas/Falklands. :p

As much as I would hate to debate it, it does seem like a major issue in this.
R E D L E G S


【BORN TO ABOLISH】
SOUTH IS A F**K
鬼神 Kill Em All 1859
I am free man
410,757,864,530 DEAD REBS

User avatar
Malgrave
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5738
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Malgrave » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:53 pm

Calimera II wrote:Argentina can afford them, and it seems quite idiotic to me that the UK would block a deal.


If Argentina somehow manages to scramble together the money for these fighters and get them past US and UK approval they won't do much because the entire Argentine Air-Force is antiquated
Frenequesta wrote:Well-dressed mad scientists with an edge.

United Kingdom of Malgrave (1910-)
Population: 331 million
GDP Per Capita: 42,000 dollars
Join the Leftist Cooperation and Security Pact

User avatar
Allentyr
Minister
 
Posts: 2175
Founded: Jun 26, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Allentyr » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:54 pm

Olivaero wrote:
Calimera II wrote:Argentina can afford them, and it seems quite idiotic to me that the UK would block a deal.

And let's not debate ownership of the Malvinas/Falklands. :p

Why does it seem idiotic to you?


Pretty damn smart move for me.
Steam
Blazedtown wrote:I'll spell reaganomincs in your bathroom mirror in blood, and remove minorities from from your family photo albums

Sediczja wrote:
Basseemia wrote:You sound gross. Learn some hygiene.

Hey, showering is for little girls. You're not a real man until the rot on your crotch is an inch thick.

Mefpan wrote:I don't think we need a source to prove that the economy is interconnected and doesn't run on muahahahaium, the secret element that comes into existence whenever someone hatches a nefarious plan.

Emperial Germany wrote:
Greater Weselton wrote:Would you like her to show up in your bedroom at 3:00 A.M. in full witch attire?

Would you like me to show up in your bedroom at 3:00 A.M in full Joker attire?

User avatar
Organized States
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8426
Founded: Apr 26, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Organized States » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:57 pm

Cyrisnia wrote:
Calimera II wrote:Argentina can afford them, and it seems quite idiotic to me that the UK would block a deal.

And let's not debate ownership of the Malvinas/Falklands. :p

As much as I would hate to debate it, it does seem like a major issue in this.

Well, I don't believe ownership is a major issue in this thread, as it's mainly going to become a Typhoon/F-35B vs Gripen thread here soon.
Thank God for OS!- Deian
"In the old days, the navigators used magic to make themselves strong, but now, nothing; they just pray. Before they leave and at sea, they pray. But I, I make myself strong by thinking—just by thinking! I make myself strong because I despise cowardice. Too many men are afraid of the sea. But I am a navigator."-Mau Piailug
"I regret that I have only one life to give to my island." -Ricardo Bordallo, 2nd Governor of Guam
"Both are voyages of exploration. Hōkūle‘a is in the past, Columbia is in the future." -Colonel Charles L. Veach, USAF, Astronaut and Navigation Enthusiast

Pacific Islander-American (proud member of the 0.5%), Officer to be

User avatar
Insaeldor
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5384
Founded: Aug 26, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Insaeldor » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:00 pm

I truly don't feel sorry for the Argentinians on this one. Not out of spite or anything I simply just don't care all that much plus I can understand Beitians fears over the Falklands to warrant a veto on sales.
Time is a prismatic uniform polyhedron

User avatar
Olivaero
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8012
Founded: Jun 17, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Olivaero » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:04 pm

Allentyr wrote:
Olivaero wrote:Why does it seem idiotic to you?


Pretty damn smart move for me.

Yeah, not selling weapons systems to countries that regularly and loudly remind everyone that part of your territory is rightfully theirs seems a pretty smart move to me too.
British, Anglo Celtic, English, Northerner.

Transhumanist, Left Hegelian, Marxist, Communist.

Agnostic Theist, Culturally Christian.

User avatar
The UK in Exile
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12023
Founded: Jul 27, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby The UK in Exile » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:05 pm

It does say something about the Schizophrenic nature of the UK's arms sales laws.

We'll sell to Qatar, Oman, Saudi Arabia..... but not to Argentina? We were gung-ho for arms sales to Brazil but didn't consider the possibility that they would want to co-operate with Argentina?
"We fought for the public good and would have enfranchised the people and secured the welfare of the whole groaning creation, if the nation had not more delighted in servitude than in freedom"

"My actions are as noble as my thoughts, That never relish’d of a base descent.I came unto your court for honour’s cause, And not to be a rebel to her state; And he that otherwise accounts of me, This sword shall prove he’s honour’s enemy."

"Wählte Ungnade, wo Gehorsam nicht Ehre brachte."
DEFCON 0 - not at war
DEFCON 1 - at war "go to red alert!" "are you absolutely sure sir? it does mean changing the lightbulb."

User avatar
New Kvenland
Minister
 
Posts: 2068
Founded: Jul 07, 2014
Left-wing Utopia

Postby New Kvenland » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:09 pm

In my opinion, the Argentinians should buy non-NATO jets. Maybe a J-15 or 16, or if those are too expensive, a J-11.
californian ultranationalist | the bear flag will fly from cabo to the great salt lake once again | the pretenders in arizona will crumble to the sand they tread on

User avatar
Insaeldor
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5384
Founded: Aug 26, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Insaeldor » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:11 pm

New Kvenland wrote:In my opinion, the Argentinians should buy non-NATO jets. Maybe a J-15 or 16, or if those are too expensive, a J-11.

Or just buy NATO supplied aircraft for non-NATO states or simply just just by jets that aren't so tied to the UK.
Time is a prismatic uniform polyhedron

User avatar
Valaran
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21211
Founded: May 25, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Valaran » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:21 pm

I don't really mind if Argentina buys these aircraft.

Malgrave wrote:
If Argentina somehow manages to scramble together the money for these fighters and get them past US and UK approval they won't do much because the entire Argentine Air-Force is antiquated


This makes the point eloquently enough for me. (kudos donated liberally to Malgrave)


Kirchner's posturing on the Falklands is far more divisive; I would be perfectly happy to work together with Argentina aside from this issue, and even concerning the islands themselves I wouldn't mind cooperation - fishing rights, joint oil drilling (exploratory wells for now) and so on.
Last edited by Valaran on Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I used to run an alliance, and a region. Not that it matters now.
Archeuland and Baughistan wrote:"I don't always nice, but when I do, I build it up." Valaran
Valaran wrote:To be fair though.... I was judging on coolness factor, the most important criteria in any war.
Zoboyizakoplayoklot wrote:Val: NS's resident mindless zombie
Planita wrote:you just set the OP on fire

User avatar
Alyakia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18422
Founded: Jul 12, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Alyakia » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:23 pm

the UK fears any country that might even have a hint of enmity towards them getting their hands on a plane that can actually fly
pro: good
anti: bad

The UK and EU are Better Together

"Margaret Thatcher showed the world that women are not too soft or the weaker sex, and can be as heartless, horrible, and amoral as any male politician."

User avatar
Fartsniffage
Post Czar
 
Posts: 42050
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:26 pm

Alyakia wrote:the UK fears any country that might even have a hint of enmity towards them getting their hands on a plane that can actually fly


Of course. Britain has 4 Typhoons deployed to the Falklands at any given point and no carrier capability at the moment. 24 Grippens would be a significant threat.

User avatar
Frazers
Minister
 
Posts: 2028
Founded: Mar 16, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Frazers » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:28 pm

Alyakia wrote:the UK fears any country that might even have a hint of enmity towards them getting their hands on a plane that can actually fly


Sensibly

User avatar
The UK in Exile
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12023
Founded: Jul 27, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby The UK in Exile » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:31 pm

Frazers wrote:
Alyakia wrote:the UK fears any country that might even have a hint of enmity towards them getting their hands on a plane that can actually fly


Sensibly


Not particularly. The arms trade would struggle tremendously if we restricted it solely to countries with no desire to use them.
"We fought for the public good and would have enfranchised the people and secured the welfare of the whole groaning creation, if the nation had not more delighted in servitude than in freedom"

"My actions are as noble as my thoughts, That never relish’d of a base descent.I came unto your court for honour’s cause, And not to be a rebel to her state; And he that otherwise accounts of me, This sword shall prove he’s honour’s enemy."

"Wählte Ungnade, wo Gehorsam nicht Ehre brachte."
DEFCON 0 - not at war
DEFCON 1 - at war "go to red alert!" "are you absolutely sure sir? it does mean changing the lightbulb."

User avatar
Frazers
Minister
 
Posts: 2028
Founded: Mar 16, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Frazers » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:36 pm

The UK in Exile wrote:
Frazers wrote:
Sensibly


Not particularly. The arms trade would struggle tremendously if we restricted it solely to countries with no desire to use them.


So your just going to completely make up a whole new context for my post huh

User avatar
Napkiraly
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37450
Founded: Aug 02, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Napkiraly » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:37 pm

The UK in Exile wrote:It does say something about the Schizophrenic nature of the UK's arms sales laws.

We'll sell to Qatar, Oman, Saudi Arabia..... but not to Argentina?

Last time I checked they don't have a territorial dispute with the UK, especially one that led to a war 32 years ago.

User avatar
Olerand
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13169
Founded: Sep 18, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Olerand » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:37 pm

The UK in Exile wrote:
Frazers wrote:
Sensibly


Not particularly. The arms trade would struggle tremendously if we restricted it solely to countries with no desire to use them.

The German Social Democrats are influencing the German government to basically do that. Sell weaponry only to countries that like respect human rights and are peaceful and stuff. So basically to countries that don't need them, and America.
French citizen. Still a Socialist Party member. Ségolène Royal 2019, I guess Actually I might vote la France Insoumise.

Qui suis-je?:
Free Rhenish States wrote:You're French, without faith, probably godless, liberal without any traditional values or respect for any faith whatsoever

User avatar
Napkiraly
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37450
Founded: Aug 02, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Napkiraly » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:38 pm

Insaeldor wrote:
New Kvenland wrote:In my opinion, the Argentinians should buy non-NATO jets. Maybe a J-15 or 16, or if those are too expensive, a J-11.

Or just buy NATO supplied aircraft for non-NATO states or simply just just by jets that aren't so tied to the UK.

Wont stop MI6 from sending in Daniel Craig to sabotage them.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Arstotzkan, Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Dimetrodon Empire, Dumb Ideologies, Eahland, Finland SSR, GMS Greater Miami Shores 1, Kostane, Nlarhyalo, Ors Might, Pale Dawn, Plan Neonie, Port Carverton, Rusozak, The Black Forrest, The Kharkivan Cossacks, Tungstan

Advertisement

Remove ads