Should foreigners have 4th amendment protections OUTSIDE US?

[Amacia]

This is something I'm not entirely sure about. At the moment I'm inclined to believe that foreigners on foreign soil have no 4th amendment rights when it comes to NSA spying (on American soil is a different story). And if so should the government get a warrant?

So NSG, what say you?

Edit: This discussion will possibly involve Executive Order 12333 (What little we know of it).

[Prezelly]

Hmmm.
Legal foreigners yes, illegals no.
Also nice OP

[Espresso and Insanity]

Why shouldn't they? All residents of the US, whether they were born here or elsewhere, should have equal rights. It's not only rational, fair, but it's constitutional.

[Amacia]

Hmmm.
Legal foreigners yes, illegals no.
Also nice OP

Are you talking about illegal immigrants? I'm talking about foreigners in their own countries (possibly excluding fellow "Five Eyes" nations).

[Amacia]

Why shouldn't they? All residents of the US, whether they were born here or elsewhere, should have equal rights. It's not only rational, fair, but it's constitutional.

If by legal residents you mean green card holders, then yes, they should have 4th amendment rights wherever they are. That's not what I'm talking about.

[Prezelly]

Hmmm.
Legal foreigners yes, illegals no.
Also nice OP

Are you talking about illegal immigrants? I'm talking about foreigners in their own countries (possibly excluding fellow "Five Eyes" nations).

Ah I see, I misread.
Yes everybody should have the rights. But not everyone ever will

[Wisconsin9]

On foreign soil? Not our jurisdiction, it seems like. Which means it's probably illegal for us to be spying on them anyways, so it's kind of a moot point, ain't it?

[Amacia]

My reasoning is that in warfare, if you shoot at our soldiers, you don't get trials, you get shot. Also, I think it's a little cumbersome to have warrants for spying on foreigners in foreign soil.

[Dooom35796821595]

My reasoning is that in warfare, if you shoot at our soldiers, you don't get trials, you get shot. Also, I think it's a little cumbersome to have warrants for spying on foreigners in foreign soil.

So your talking about the NSA spying on citizens of foreign nations in their nation? Like a Brit in the UK?

If so, I'm afraid you're mistaken. The CIA spies on foreign soil, the NSA is domestic.

[Amacia]

My reasoning is that in warfare, if you shoot at our soldiers, you don't get trials, you get shot. Also, I think it's a little cumbersome to have warrants for spying on foreigners in foreign soil.

So your talking about the NSA spying on citizens of foreign nations in their nation? Like a Brit in the UK?

If so, I'm afraid you're mistaken. The CIA spies on foreign soil, the NSA is domestic.

For the most part, the US doesn't spy on the UK as it's "Five Eyes" nation. CIA is human intelligence. NSA is signals intelligence.
But I'm mostly talking about the 4th amendment and warrants.

[Greater Weselton]

Everyone in this nation should have 4th Amendment protections.

[Amacia]

Everyone in this nation should have 4th Amendment protections.

Not the topic. This is about foreigners OUTSIDE THE US.

[Milku Ugariti]

No one in America has rights, just temporary privileges.

[Amacia]

No one in America has rights, just temporary privileges.

Did anyone read the OP?

[Greater Weselton]

Everyone in this nation should have 4th Amendment protections.

Not the topic. This is about foreigners OUTSIDE THE US.

I still think they should when it deals with the government.

[Amacia]

Not the topic. This is about foreigners OUTSIDE THE US.

I still think they should when it deals with the government.

Should the gov. need to get a warrant first?

[Greater Weselton]

I still think they should when it deals with the government.

Should the gov. need to get a warrant first?

They should.

[Dooom35796821595]

Everyone in this nation should have 4th Amendment protections.

Not the topic. This is about foreigners OUTSIDE THE US.

US law ends at the border. The citizen is afforded the rights and protections of their country, no other. which still ends up with a high probability that espionage by American agents without approval from the foreign government is illegal.

So your talking about the NSA spying on citizens of foreign nations in their nation? Like a Brit in the UK?

If so, I'm afraid you're mistaken. The CIA spies on foreign soil, the NSA is domestic.

For the most part, the US doesn't spy on the UK as it's "Five Eyes" nation. CIA is human intelligence. NSA is signals intelligence.
But I'm mostly talking about the 4th amendment and warrants.

The US dosen't have CIA in the UK, right.....

Are you referring to digital espionage? as that's a whole different subject.

[Salus Maior]

No...Because they're not in the country. Laws are specific to countries.

[Amacia]

Not the topic. This is about foreigners OUTSIDE THE US.

US law ends at the border. The citizen is afforded the rights and protections of their country, no other. which still ends up with a high probability that espionage by American agents without approval from the foreign government is illegal.

For the most part, the US doesn't spy on the UK as it's "Five Eyes" nation. CIA is human intelligence. NSA is signals intelligence.
But I'm mostly talking about the 4th amendment and warrants.

The US dosen't have CIA in the UK, right.....

Are you referring to digital espionage? as that's a whole different subject.

Didn't think about the foreign government approval aspect, though if we were spying on a foreign government, I'm not sure how we'd get their approval (my guess: we don't).

It's my understanding of the Five Eyes agreement that the US, UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand share intelligence and don't spy on each other (whether they follow this is a different story).

And yes, I do mean digital espionage (surveillance).

Edit: Of interest to the foreign government permission question.

[The Union of Tentacles and Grapes]

I'm a massive anti-nationalistic liberal, so I think that rights enforced by 4th amendment apply to everyone in the world as human rights.

I need to find more precise words to describe my weird political ideologies.

[Salus Maior]

I'm a massive anti-nationalistic liberal, so I think that rights enforced by 4th amendment apply to everyone in the world as human rights.

I need to find more precise words to describe my weird political ideologies.

I feel like holding up the U.S constitution as world-wide law is essentially having America rule the world. Which a lot of people would complain about (at the very least).

[The Union of Tentacles and Grapes]

I'm a massive anti-nationalistic liberal, so I think that rights enforced by 4th amendment apply to everyone in the world as human rights.

I need to find more precise words to describe my weird political ideologies.

I feel like holding up the U.S constitution as world-wide law is essentially having America rule the world. Which a lot of people would complain about (at the very least).

Do you think that some people don't have a right to privacy without due process of law? That's all the 4th amendment says. Lots of things about the united states and its Constitution suck, but the 4th amendment is not one of those things. Also, check my wording. the rights are important, not where they are written down.

[Infected Mushroom]

This is something I'm not entirely sure about. At the moment I'm inclined to believe that foreigners on foreign soil have no 4th amendment rights when it comes to NSA spying (on American soil is a different story). And if so should the government get a warrant?

So NSG, what say you?

Edit: This discussion will possibly involve Executive Order 12333 (What little we know of it).

No.

The Fourth Amendment only applies to American citizens on American soil or American citizens on foreign soil in dealings with the American government.

Foreigners do not get American rights, certainly not on foreign soil; it's just as strange as saying British citizens in the UK have Australian constitutional protection.

This being the status quo, I see no reason to change it.

[L Ron Cupboard]

The CIA spies on foreign soil, the NSA is domestic.

Then the NSA are a very naughty agency.