by United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:21 pm
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by United States Kingdom » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:26 pm
United Marxist Nations wrote:Before we begin, I'm going to lay down some definitions being used throughout this, so that arguing over semantics doesn't happen:
-Socialism: being used in the Marxist sense, as in, a economic stage in which the dictatorship of the proletariat controls the means of production.
-Dictatorship of the Proletariat (also will be called State Socialism): A state controlled by the proletariat.
-Proto-Socialism: A stage with some aspects of socialism, but lacking sufficient workers' control of the state.
Now, to begin.
In many arguments about the USSR, there is oftentimes to debate on what terms to use in describing it. Some use "state socialism", "state capitalism", or "degenerated workers' state". All of these terms are incorrect: the USSR was not socialist (as the means of production were not controlled by the proletariat), nor was it capitalist (as the means of production were not controlled by a bourgeois), and it had never achieved socialism, so it can therefore not be called a workers' state which has degenerated. So, what can this be called? On paper, the government of the USSR had the potential to be controlled by the proletariat in structure, but this did not happen. Thus, it can be said that the USSR featured some aspects of socialism, workers' councils did exist, and de jure (though not de facto) power to elect representatives. A right to work, a right to healthcare were guaranteed. Housing and higher education were heavily subsidized (and sometimes guaranteed), and workers were largely provided with the value of their labor (though with administrative and maintenance costs taken out, as predicted by Marx).
So, we come to the conclusion that the USSR caught perpetually in the transition to industrial capitalism. What was the cause of this? Why, if (to use Stalin's words) the first "steps toward socialism" were taken, did the USSR stop halfway through and sit upon the bench? While most are in agreement that, in the lead-up to the Second World War, taking the chance to reduce the efficiency with which the country could wage war by instituting socialist elections would have been too risky (on top of the already risky Great Purge). However, once the country had recovered from the economic blow delivered by the War, it appears the USSR would have been able to make the leap into state socialism without much difficulty. So, why did the Vanguard Party not do this?
The answer lies in the Nomenklatura; while not a bourgeois, but a bureaucracy, the nomenklatura was able to plan out the economy of the USSR, and thus held a privileged position within the state. It was thus in their power and interest to maintain the proto-socialist order. Thus, they introduced the false doctrine of "peaceful co-existence", which stated that class conflict isn't necessarily always in motion. Moreover, the Party's rhetoric changed in this period from an understanding that socialism needed to be built, to one of having already attained such a system.
But the Vanguard Party of the Proletariat is supposed to be just that: of the Proletariat, that is, made up of those proletarians helping to use their knowledge of Marxism-Leninism to spread such throughout the proletariat. So, to examine why it was the Vanguard Party failed, it is not to look at the situation within the USSR, but instead at that of the Russian Empire from which it sprouted. Industry and literacy were lacking, there was a distinct lack of a proletariat to form and join the Vanguard Party of the Proletariat. Industrial capitalism had not yet formed in the Russian Empire, so then, as Marx and Engels said, how can socialism arise out of a stage in which capitalism does not exist?
We are left with one conclusion: the USSR was fatally stunted by the conditions from which it arose; while it is possible that later nomenklatura, in the eras of Stalin (post-1950), Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc. could have saved it be implementing a true Soviet Republic, but it was not in the interests of these bureaucracies to do so. Thus, it seems that the failure can not necessarily be pinned upon any one ideological fault, or any individual, or on economic stagnation, socialism, or a Vanguard Party, but upon the lack of capitalism in the society from which socialism arose.
However, now most of the world is either in a stage of capitalism, or in fledgling capitalism, the proletariat is large, it is largely literate, etc. The conditions exist now for socialism to arise, be it in the West, or in the East.
- J. S. Stew. (UMN)
So, NSG (and particularly communists and socialists of NSG), what of this analysis?
If you quote the OP, spoiler it!
by The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:42 pm
by United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:44 pm
The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:tl:dr People in power like the status quo. wow.
I don't think having proletariat leaders would help that much, it'd depend on the capacity of the proles as an entire entity to prevent corruption and maintain transparency throughout the transformation.
How possible that'd be? IDK
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by Zottistan » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:51 pm
United Marxist Nations wrote:We are left with one conclusion: the USSR was fatally stunted by the conditions from which it arose; while it is possible that later nomenklatura, in the eras of Stalin (post-1950), Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc. could have saved it be implementing a true Soviet Republic, but it was not in the interests of these bureaucracies to do so. Thus, it seems that the failure can not necessarily be pinned upon any one ideological fault, or any individual, or on economic stagnation, socialism, or a Vanguard Party, but upon the lack of capitalism in the society from which socialism arose.
by The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:51 pm
United Marxist Nations wrote:The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:tl:dr People in power like the status quo. wow.
I don't think having proletariat leaders would help that much, it'd depend on the capacity of the proles as an entire entity to prevent corruption and maintain transparency throughout the transformation.
How possible that'd be? IDK
That's actually not what I was saying at all, I was saying that the USSR arose from an economic stage in which it was not possible to advance into socialism. It actually had little to anything to do with leaders.
by United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:56 pm
The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:United Marxist Nations wrote:That's actually not what I was saying at all, I was saying that the USSR arose from an economic stage in which it was not possible to advance into socialism. It actually had little to anything to do with leaders.
I'm saying even if that transition stage between no-socialism and total-socialism had been reached properly (by a prole rebellion against capitalism), a full transition would still primarily depend on the strength and competence of the proles themselves to stop degradation into a domineering state.
IMO, from a humble layman.
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by The Sotoan Union » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:04 pm
United Marxist Nations wrote:The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:I'm saying even if that transition stage between no-socialism and total-socialism had been reached properly (by a prole rebellion against capitalism), a full transition would still primarily depend on the strength and competence of the proles themselves to stop degradation into a domineering state.
IMO, from a humble layman.
Not at all, because the proletariat would be the state, as I would describe it, the model of a socialist republic would be something along these lines:
All places of work will be organized in a Republican fashion. The workers shall appoint, by vote and from among their own rank, a soviet of one representative for every ten workers. The soviets in a municipality will appoint, from among their members, representatives [representation will be proportional to population of each place of work] to stand for them in a municipal soviet. This municipal soviet will act as the governing body for the municipality. The population for the whole of a district, province, or territory will participate in direct vote to appoint representatives [representation proportional to the areas from which representatives are appointed] to a regional soviet (legislative body for the region). Each region will participate in direct election to appoint representatives [proportional to the population of the regions represented] to a Supreme Soviet (the legislative body for the entire country). The Supreme Soviet will appoint, by vote, members of the Central Committee, which shall be the executive branch of the Soviet State. The Supreme Soviet will draft economic plans for the country based on the economic needs of the country. Regional and Local Soviets will modify these plans to fit with regional and local needs. They will then send their revisions to the Supreme Soviet for approval; the Supreme Soviet will judge whether these modifications meet the needs of the nation, and will either approve or deny them. The plans will be sent to the Central Committee, which will provide for the necessary organizations to carry out these plans.
Not Lenin's fault at all, as a bourgeois republic would have faced many of the same difficulties. And in their defense, the Bolsheviks did implement many capitalist things (see NEP and Fordism); I was saying that, basically, the difficulties were incredible, and that the Revolution would have faced these same difficulties no matter what happened. Certainly, a socialist state could have still been established, but this would have faced massive difficulties until industrialization and the elimination of illiteracy.
by United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:06 pm
The Sotoan Union wrote:United Marxist Nations wrote:Not at all, because the proletariat would be the state, as I would describe it, the model of a socialist republic would be something along these lines:
All places of work will be organized in a Republican fashion. The workers shall appoint, by vote and from among their own rank, a soviet of one representative for every ten workers. The soviets in a municipality will appoint, from among their members, representatives [representation will be proportional to population of each place of work] to stand for them in a municipal soviet. This municipal soviet will act as the governing body for the municipality. The population for the whole of a district, province, or territory will participate in direct vote to appoint representatives [representation proportional to the areas from which representatives are appointed] to a regional soviet (legislative body for the region). Each region will participate in direct election to appoint representatives [proportional to the population of the regions represented] to a Supreme Soviet (the legislative body for the entire country). The Supreme Soviet will appoint, by vote, members of the Central Committee, which shall be the executive branch of the Soviet State. The Supreme Soviet will draft economic plans for the country based on the economic needs of the country. Regional and Local Soviets will modify these plans to fit with regional and local needs. They will then send their revisions to the Supreme Soviet for approval; the Supreme Soviet will judge whether these modifications meet the needs of the nation, and will either approve or deny them. The plans will be sent to the Central Committee, which will provide for the necessary organizations to carry out these plans.
Not Lenin's fault at all, as a bourgeois republic would have faced many of the same difficulties. And in their defense, the Bolsheviks did implement many capitalist things (see NEP and Fordism); I was saying that, basically, the difficulties were incredible, and that the Revolution would have faced these same difficulties no matter what happened. Certainly, a socialist state could have still been established, but this would have faced massive difficulties until industrialization and the elimination of illiteracy.
And when building this state after a violent and destabilizing revolution, what is supposed to stop this system from being abused by the leaders of the revolution or a dictator?
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by Conserative Morality » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:12 pm
United Marxist Nations wrote:
The armed proletariat.
by United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:14 pm
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:17 pm
by United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:19 pm
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:27 pm
by United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:28 pm
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by FutureAmerica » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:28 pm
by The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:29 pm
FutureAmerica wrote:North Korea and Cuba are fundamentalist proletariat states run in the same style as Stalinist USSR.
by United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:30 pm
FutureAmerica wrote:North Korea and Cuba are fundamentalist proletariat states run in the same style as Stalinist USSR.
That's what your foolish proletariat ideals will become. North Korean and Cuban governments for everyone, yay fools!
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by The Sotoan Union » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:33 pm
by United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:36 pm
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by DnalweN acilbupeR » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:39 pm
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.
by The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:42 pm
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:wokers of the world unite blah blah
by FutureAmerica » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:45 pm
by DnalweN acilbupeR » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:46 pm
United Marxist Nations wrote:FutureAmerica wrote:North Korea and Cuba are fundamentalist proletariat states run in the same style as Stalinist USSR.
That's what your foolish proletariat ideals will become. North Korean and Cuban governments for everyone, yay fools!
No, they aren't. You're clearly not familiar with NK's state ideologies of Juche and Songun, which call for Korean exceptionalism and supremacy. And Cuba isn't even that bad.
So yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about.
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.
by DnalweN acilbupeR » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:47 pm
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.
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