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Proto-Socialism: an Autopsy of the USSR.

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United Marxist Nations
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Proto-Socialism: an Autopsy of the USSR.

Postby United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:21 pm

Before we begin, I'm going to lay down some definitions being used throughout this, so that arguing over semantics doesn't happen:
-Socialism: being used in the Marxist sense, as in, a economic stage in which the dictatorship of the proletariat controls the means of production.
-Dictatorship of the Proletariat (also will be called State Socialism): A state controlled by the proletariat.
-Proto-Socialism: A stage with some aspects of socialism, but lacking sufficient workers' control of the state.

Now, to begin.

In many arguments about the USSR, there is oftentimes to debate on what terms to use in describing it. Some use "state socialism", "state capitalism", or "degenerated workers' state". All of these terms are incorrect: the USSR was not socialist (as the means of production were not controlled by the proletariat), nor was it capitalist (as the means of production were not controlled by a bourgeois), and it had never achieved socialism, so it can therefore not be called a workers' state which has degenerated. So, what can this be called? On paper, the government of the USSR had the potential to be controlled by the proletariat in structure, but this did not happen. Thus, it can be said that the USSR featured some aspects of socialism, workers' councils did exist, and de jure (though not de facto) power to elect representatives. A right to work, a right to healthcare were guaranteed. Housing and higher education were heavily subsidized (and sometimes guaranteed), and workers were largely provided with the value of their labor (though with administrative and maintenance costs taken out, as predicted by Marx).

So, we come to the conclusion that the USSR caught perpetually in the transition to industrial capitalism. What was the cause of this? Why, if (to use Stalin's words) the first "steps toward socialism" were taken, did the USSR stop halfway through and sit upon the bench? While most are in agreement that, in the lead-up to the Second World War, taking the chance to reduce the efficiency with which the country could wage war by instituting socialist elections would have been too risky (on top of the already risky Great Purge). However, once the country had recovered from the economic blow delivered by the War, it appears the USSR would have been able to make the leap into state socialism without much difficulty. So, why did the Vanguard Party not do this?

The answer lies in the Nomenklatura; while not a bourgeois, but a bureaucracy, the nomenklatura was able to plan out the economy of the USSR, and thus held a privileged position within the state. It was thus in their power and interest to maintain the proto-socialist order. Thus, they introduced the false doctrine of "peaceful co-existence", which stated that class conflict isn't necessarily always in motion. Moreover, the Party's rhetoric changed in this period from an understanding that socialism needed to be built, to one of having already attained such a system.

But the Vanguard Party of the Proletariat is supposed to be just that: of the Proletariat, that is, made up of those proletarians helping to use their knowledge of Marxism-Leninism to spread such throughout the proletariat. So, to examine why it was the Vanguard Party failed, it is not to look at the situation within the USSR, but instead at that of the Russian Empire from which it sprouted. Industry and literacy were lacking, there was a distinct lack of a proletariat to form and join the Vanguard Party of the Proletariat. Industrial capitalism had not yet formed in the Russian Empire, so then, as Marx and Engels said, how can socialism arise out of a stage in which capitalism does not exist?

We are left with one conclusion: the USSR was fatally stunted by the conditions from which it arose; while it is possible that later nomenklatura, in the eras of Stalin (post-1950), Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc. could have saved it be implementing a true Soviet Republic, but it was not in the interests of these bureaucracies to do so. Thus, it seems that the failure can not necessarily be pinned upon any one ideological fault, or any individual, or on economic stagnation, socialism, or a Vanguard Party, but upon the lack of capitalism in the society from which socialism arose.

However, now most of the world is either in a stage of capitalism, or in fledgling capitalism, the proletariat is large, it is largely literate, etc. The conditions exist now for socialism to arise, be it in the West, or in the East.

- J. S. Stew. (UMN)

So, NSG (and particularly communists and socialists of NSG), what of this analysis?


If you quote the OP, spoiler it!
Last edited by United Marxist Nations on Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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United States Kingdom
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Postby United States Kingdom » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:26 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:Before we begin, I'm going to lay down some definitions being used throughout this, so that arguing over semantics doesn't happen:
-Socialism: being used in the Marxist sense, as in, a economic stage in which the dictatorship of the proletariat controls the means of production.
-Dictatorship of the Proletariat (also will be called State Socialism): A state controlled by the proletariat.
-Proto-Socialism: A stage with some aspects of socialism, but lacking sufficient workers' control of the state.

Now, to begin.

In many arguments about the USSR, there is oftentimes to debate on what terms to use in describing it. Some use "state socialism", "state capitalism", or "degenerated workers' state". All of these terms are incorrect: the USSR was not socialist (as the means of production were not controlled by the proletariat), nor was it capitalist (as the means of production were not controlled by a bourgeois), and it had never achieved socialism, so it can therefore not be called a workers' state which has degenerated. So, what can this be called? On paper, the government of the USSR had the potential to be controlled by the proletariat in structure, but this did not happen. Thus, it can be said that the USSR featured some aspects of socialism, workers' councils did exist, and de jure (though not de facto) power to elect representatives. A right to work, a right to healthcare were guaranteed. Housing and higher education were heavily subsidized (and sometimes guaranteed), and workers were largely provided with the value of their labor (though with administrative and maintenance costs taken out, as predicted by Marx).

So, we come to the conclusion that the USSR caught perpetually in the transition to industrial capitalism. What was the cause of this? Why, if (to use Stalin's words) the first "steps toward socialism" were taken, did the USSR stop halfway through and sit upon the bench? While most are in agreement that, in the lead-up to the Second World War, taking the chance to reduce the efficiency with which the country could wage war by instituting socialist elections would have been too risky (on top of the already risky Great Purge). However, once the country had recovered from the economic blow delivered by the War, it appears the USSR would have been able to make the leap into state socialism without much difficulty. So, why did the Vanguard Party not do this?

The answer lies in the Nomenklatura; while not a bourgeois, but a bureaucracy, the nomenklatura was able to plan out the economy of the USSR, and thus held a privileged position within the state. It was thus in their power and interest to maintain the proto-socialist order. Thus, they introduced the false doctrine of "peaceful co-existence", which stated that class conflict isn't necessarily always in motion. Moreover, the Party's rhetoric changed in this period from an understanding that socialism needed to be built, to one of having already attained such a system.

But the Vanguard Party of the Proletariat is supposed to be just that: of the Proletariat, that is, made up of those proletarians helping to use their knowledge of Marxism-Leninism to spread such throughout the proletariat. So, to examine why it was the Vanguard Party failed, it is not to look at the situation within the USSR, but instead at that of the Russian Empire from which it sprouted. Industry and literacy were lacking, there was a distinct lack of a proletariat to form and join the Vanguard Party of the Proletariat. Industrial capitalism had not yet formed in the Russian Empire, so then, as Marx and Engels said, how can socialism arise out of a stage in which capitalism does not exist?

We are left with one conclusion: the USSR was fatally stunted by the conditions from which it arose; while it is possible that later nomenklatura, in the eras of Stalin (post-1950), Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc. could have saved it be implementing a true Soviet Republic, but it was not in the interests of these bureaucracies to do so. Thus, it seems that the failure can not necessarily be pinned upon any one ideological fault, or any individual, or on economic stagnation, socialism, or a Vanguard Party, but upon the lack of capitalism in the society from which socialism arose.

However, now most of the world is either in a stage of capitalism, or in fledgling capitalism, the proletariat is large, it is largely literate, etc. The conditions exist now for socialism to arise, be it in the West, or in the East.

- J. S. Stew. (UMN)

So, NSG (and particularly communists and socialists of NSG), what of this analysis?


If you quote the OP, spoiler it!


I support socialism as but I really don't know much about the USSR's history as I haven't read it in about a year. I like the well thought out analysis.

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The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace
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Postby The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:42 pm

tl:dr People in power like the status quo. wow.

I don't think having proletariat leaders would help that much, it'd depend on the capacity of the proles as an entire entity to prevent corruption and maintain transparency throughout the transformation.

How possible that'd be? IDK
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The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:Ironic ain't it, now there really IS 47% of the country that feels like victims.

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Postby United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:44 pm

The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:tl:dr People in power like the status quo. wow.

I don't think having proletariat leaders would help that much, it'd depend on the capacity of the proles as an entire entity to prevent corruption and maintain transparency throughout the transformation.

How possible that'd be? IDK

That's actually not what I was saying at all, I was saying that the USSR arose from an economic stage in which it was not possible to advance into socialism. It actually had little to anything to do with leaders.
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Postby Zottistan » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:51 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:We are left with one conclusion: the USSR was fatally stunted by the conditions from which it arose; while it is possible that later nomenklatura, in the eras of Stalin (post-1950), Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc. could have saved it be implementing a true Soviet Republic, but it was not in the interests of these bureaucracies to do so. Thus, it seems that the failure can not necessarily be pinned upon any one ideological fault, or any individual, or on economic stagnation, socialism, or a Vanguard Party, but upon the lack of capitalism in the society from which socialism arose.

In other words, it can be blamed on Lenin. It's basically his fault that the Bolsheviks pushed straight for a transition to socialism, instead of taking the orthodox Marxist approach of first transitioning to a bourgeois democracy and then to socialism. It was his idea.
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The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace
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Postby The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:51 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:tl:dr People in power like the status quo. wow.

I don't think having proletariat leaders would help that much, it'd depend on the capacity of the proles as an entire entity to prevent corruption and maintain transparency throughout the transformation.

How possible that'd be? IDK

That's actually not what I was saying at all, I was saying that the USSR arose from an economic stage in which it was not possible to advance into socialism. It actually had little to anything to do with leaders.

I'm saying even if that transition stage between no-socialism and total-socialism had been reached properly (by a prole rebellion against capitalism), a full transition would still primarily depend on the strength and competence of the proles themselves to stop degradation into a domineering state.

IMO, from a humble layman.
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The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:Ironic ain't it, now there really IS 47% of the country that feels like victims.

........fuck it, you win the internet.

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Postby United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:56 pm

The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:That's actually not what I was saying at all, I was saying that the USSR arose from an economic stage in which it was not possible to advance into socialism. It actually had little to anything to do with leaders.

I'm saying even if that transition stage between no-socialism and total-socialism had been reached properly (by a prole rebellion against capitalism), a full transition would still primarily depend on the strength and competence of the proles themselves to stop degradation into a domineering state.

IMO, from a humble layman.

Not at all, because the proletariat would be the state, as I would describe it, the model of a socialist republic would be something along these lines:

All places of work will be organized in a Republican fashion. The workers shall appoint, by vote and from among their own rank, a soviet of one representative for every ten workers. The soviets in a municipality will appoint, from among their members, representatives [representation will be proportional to population of each place of work] to stand for them in a municipal soviet. This municipal soviet will act as the governing body for the municipality. The population for the whole of a district, province, or territory will participate in direct vote to appoint representatives [representation proportional to the areas from which representatives are appointed] to a regional soviet (legislative body for the region). Each region will participate in direct election to appoint representatives [proportional to the population of the regions represented] to a Supreme Soviet (the legislative body for the entire country). The Supreme Soviet will appoint, by vote, members of the Central Committee, which shall be the executive branch of the Soviet State. The Supreme Soviet will draft economic plans for the country based on the economic needs of the country. Regional and Local Soviets will modify these plans to fit with regional and local needs. They will then send their revisions to the Supreme Soviet for approval; the Supreme Soviet will judge whether these modifications meet the needs of the nation, and will either approve or deny them. The plans will be sent to the Central Committee, which will provide for the necessary organizations to carry out these plans.



Not Lenin's fault at all, as a bourgeois republic would have faced many of the same difficulties. And in their defense, the Bolsheviks did implement many capitalist things (see NEP and Fordism); I was saying that, basically, the difficulties were incredible, and that the Revolution would have faced these same difficulties no matter what happened. Certainly, a socialist state could have still been established, but this would have faced massive difficulties until industrialization and the elimination of illiteracy.
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Postby The Sotoan Union » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:04 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:I'm saying even if that transition stage between no-socialism and total-socialism had been reached properly (by a prole rebellion against capitalism), a full transition would still primarily depend on the strength and competence of the proles themselves to stop degradation into a domineering state.

IMO, from a humble layman.

Not at all, because the proletariat would be the state, as I would describe it, the model of a socialist republic would be something along these lines:

All places of work will be organized in a Republican fashion. The workers shall appoint, by vote and from among their own rank, a soviet of one representative for every ten workers. The soviets in a municipality will appoint, from among their members, representatives [representation will be proportional to population of each place of work] to stand for them in a municipal soviet. This municipal soviet will act as the governing body for the municipality. The population for the whole of a district, province, or territory will participate in direct vote to appoint representatives [representation proportional to the areas from which representatives are appointed] to a regional soviet (legislative body for the region). Each region will participate in direct election to appoint representatives [proportional to the population of the regions represented] to a Supreme Soviet (the legislative body for the entire country). The Supreme Soviet will appoint, by vote, members of the Central Committee, which shall be the executive branch of the Soviet State. The Supreme Soviet will draft economic plans for the country based on the economic needs of the country. Regional and Local Soviets will modify these plans to fit with regional and local needs. They will then send their revisions to the Supreme Soviet for approval; the Supreme Soviet will judge whether these modifications meet the needs of the nation, and will either approve or deny them. The plans will be sent to the Central Committee, which will provide for the necessary organizations to carry out these plans.



Not Lenin's fault at all, as a bourgeois republic would have faced many of the same difficulties. And in their defense, the Bolsheviks did implement many capitalist things (see NEP and Fordism); I was saying that, basically, the difficulties were incredible, and that the Revolution would have faced these same difficulties no matter what happened. Certainly, a socialist state could have still been established, but this would have faced massive difficulties until industrialization and the elimination of illiteracy.

And when building this state after a violent and destabilizing revolution, what is supposed to stop this system from being abused by the leaders of the revolution or a dictator?

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Postby United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:06 pm

The Sotoan Union wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Not at all, because the proletariat would be the state, as I would describe it, the model of a socialist republic would be something along these lines:

All places of work will be organized in a Republican fashion. The workers shall appoint, by vote and from among their own rank, a soviet of one representative for every ten workers. The soviets in a municipality will appoint, from among their members, representatives [representation will be proportional to population of each place of work] to stand for them in a municipal soviet. This municipal soviet will act as the governing body for the municipality. The population for the whole of a district, province, or territory will participate in direct vote to appoint representatives [representation proportional to the areas from which representatives are appointed] to a regional soviet (legislative body for the region). Each region will participate in direct election to appoint representatives [proportional to the population of the regions represented] to a Supreme Soviet (the legislative body for the entire country). The Supreme Soviet will appoint, by vote, members of the Central Committee, which shall be the executive branch of the Soviet State. The Supreme Soviet will draft economic plans for the country based on the economic needs of the country. Regional and Local Soviets will modify these plans to fit with regional and local needs. They will then send their revisions to the Supreme Soviet for approval; the Supreme Soviet will judge whether these modifications meet the needs of the nation, and will either approve or deny them. The plans will be sent to the Central Committee, which will provide for the necessary organizations to carry out these plans.



Not Lenin's fault at all, as a bourgeois republic would have faced many of the same difficulties. And in their defense, the Bolsheviks did implement many capitalist things (see NEP and Fordism); I was saying that, basically, the difficulties were incredible, and that the Revolution would have faced these same difficulties no matter what happened. Certainly, a socialist state could have still been established, but this would have faced massive difficulties until industrialization and the elimination of illiteracy.

And when building this state after a violent and destabilizing revolution, what is supposed to stop this system from being abused by the leaders of the revolution or a dictator?

The armed proletariat.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:12 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
The armed proletariat.

Tsk. Marxists of all people should understand how common it is for people to participate in their own oppression.
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:14 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:
The armed proletariat.

Tsk. Marxists of all people should understand how common it is for people to participate in their own oppression.

Hence why the proletariat must be able to recognize when such is happening.
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The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace
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Postby The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:17 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Tsk. Marxists of all people should understand how common it is for people to participate in their own oppression.

Hence why the proletariat must be able to recognize when such is happening.

Which was basically my point, I know the leaders are (ideally) elected from the prole population.
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:19 pm

The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Hence why the proletariat must be able to recognize when such is happening.

Which was basically my point, I know the leaders are (ideally) elected from the prole population.

Yes, and the proletariat must also have the ability to remove these representatives if they are failures or traitors.
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The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace
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Postby The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:27 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:Which was basically my point, I know the leaders are (ideally) elected from the prole population.

Yes, and the proletariat must also have the ability to remove these representatives if they are failures or traitors.

I would guess that would happen by both laws and term limits.
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The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:Ironic ain't it, now there really IS 47% of the country that feels like victims.

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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:28 pm

The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Yes, and the proletariat must also have the ability to remove these representatives if they are failures or traitors.

I would guess that would happen by both laws and term limits.

And if those were stopped or hampered somehow, proletarian control of the military, as well as a proletarian militia would be needed to remove the current state.
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Then explain North Korea.

Postby FutureAmerica » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:28 pm

North Korea and Cuba are fundamentalist proletariat states run in the same style as Stalinist USSR.
That's what your foolish proletariat ideals will become. North Korean and Cuban governments for everyone, yay fools!

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The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace
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Postby The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:29 pm

FutureAmerica wrote:North Korea and Cuba are fundamentalist proletariat states run in the same style as Stalinist USSR.


Well, there's your problem.
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The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:Ironic ain't it, now there really IS 47% of the country that feels like victims.

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Postby United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:30 pm

FutureAmerica wrote:North Korea and Cuba are fundamentalist proletariat states run in the same style as Stalinist USSR.
That's what your foolish proletariat ideals will become. North Korean and Cuban governments for everyone, yay fools!

No, they aren't. You're clearly not familiar with NK's state ideologies of Juche and Songun, which call for Korean exceptionalism and supremacy. And Cuba isn't even that bad.

So yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Postby The Sotoan Union » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:33 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
The Sotoan Union wrote:And when building this state after a violent and destabilizing revolution, what is supposed to stop this system from being abused by the leaders of the revolution or a dictator?

The armed proletariat.

Those people will have a leader. The leader is the one who takes charge when the revolution is over. Are the revolutionaries supposed to get rid of him too? Someone else will just take charge.

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Postby United Marxist Nations » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:36 pm

The Sotoan Union wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:The armed proletariat.

Those people will have a leader. The leader is the one who takes charge when the revolution is over. Are the revolutionaries supposed to get rid of him too? Someone else will just take charge.

If that were the case, then all states would have that perpetual problem. A Soviet Republic would pertain to a structure that would make it difficult for any one person to have so much power.
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Postby DnalweN acilbupeR » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:39 pm

workers of the world unite blah blah
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The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.

User avatar
The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9720
Founded: Jul 25, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:42 pm

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:wokers of the world unite blah blah

Such wonderful prose.
Founder of the Church of Ass.

No Homo.
TET sex chat link
Neo Art wrote:
The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:Ironic ain't it, now there really IS 47% of the country that feels like victims.

........fuck it, you win the internet.

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FutureAmerica
Diplomat
 
Posts: 869
Founded: May 20, 2014
Ex-Nation

You must be right

Postby FutureAmerica » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:45 pm

You must be right, because I'm spoiled and live in a society that allows this type of blogging without being sent to a death camp. I'm certain that South Korea has the exceptionalism. They're shining, while North Koreans live in filth. If you lived in a proletariat state, you would not be playing Nationstates, you'll be looking for food and toilet paper everyday. That would be your daily existence.

User avatar
DnalweN acilbupeR
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7409
Founded: Aug 23, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby DnalweN acilbupeR » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:46 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
FutureAmerica wrote:North Korea and Cuba are fundamentalist proletariat states run in the same style as Stalinist USSR.
That's what your foolish proletariat ideals will become. North Korean and Cuban governments for everyone, yay fools!

No, they aren't. You're clearly not familiar with NK's state ideologies of Juche and Songun, which call for Korean exceptionalism and supremacy. And Cuba isn't even that bad.

So yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about.


lol wth Cuba is shit.
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.

User avatar
DnalweN acilbupeR
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7409
Founded: Aug 23, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby DnalweN acilbupeR » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:47 pm

The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:wokers of the world unite blah blah

Such wonderful prose.


wankers of the world unite :lol2:
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.

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